Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Driven a V10 Touareg?

I don't like most modern Diesels - drove a new hilux D4-D the other day - performed well but a terrible engine to drive - flat, characterless and lacked response off the line - but there are some pearlers out there.

I've gone though a similar thought pattern with my Gwagen - Falcon 6, Gen 3, 1JZ GTE, 2JZ GE, 1KZ-TE, 1UZ, Isuzu 4BD1, and I'm pretty set on a Cummins 4BT/Turbo 400 combination.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote: I've gone though a similar thought pattern with my Gwagen - Falcon 6, Gen 3, 1JZ GTE, 2JZ GE, 1KZ-TE, 1UZ, Isuzu 4BD1, and I'm pretty set on a Cummins 4BT/Turbo 400 combination.

Steve.

Is that your thought process or engines you've almost installed?
Only problem with the cummins in the part of the world is the turbos are huge and on the side that gets in the way of your steering.
The same problem the yanks have trying to fit the Isuzu's in.

My wifes prado 4.0lt V6

13.8lt per 100 ks

$1.48 per lt= $20.43 per 100 ks

My 105 series Landcruiser 4.2 n/a deisel

13.6lt per 100 ks

$1.79 per lt= $24.35 per 100 ks

+ 5000k oil and filter changes

KiwiBacon wrote:

jessie928 wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:If you want to save fuel, then a 1.3 litre suzuki engine would be the best petrol swap.

Swapping the 2F for a commodore or falcon petrol engine is just pointless. Go diesel or forget about it.

pointless? its a far from pointless excersize,
swapping in a diesel that is less powerful and 2.00$ a litre to fil is pointless

Jes

Not when it gets up to twice as far on the same fuel and has a lot more torque.

twice as far as petrol, untill you install LPG, then....GAME OVER for diesel.

As I said, each to their own. It is a matter of preference, each has its merits. In my opinion, the advantages of a budget friendly petrol conversion into a 40 by far exceed the advantages of a budget friendly diesel conversion into the same vehicle. I simply disagree with the statement that a commodore or falcon motor is pointless and that diesel is the only option.

I take comfort in the fact that I can walk into most wrecking yards at any time and pick up a replacement engine for $500 or less (mine ended up costing me $300) and most will not have in excess of 300,000km on them.

My 2F: lucky to get 4km/l and gutless, low revving - long stroke.

My Falcon I6: regularly getting 8km/l and plenty of power, loves to rev.

98lux wrote:My wifes prado 4.0lt V6

13.8lt per 100 ks

$1.48 per lt= $20.43 per 100 ks

My 105 series Landcruiser 4.2 n/a deisel

13.6lt per 100 ks

$1.79 per lt= $24.35 per 100 ks

+ 5000k oil and filter changes

Comparing a smaller petrol 4wd to a larger diesel with indirect injection is a little silly don't cha think?

D4D prado, around 9 litres per 100km.
at $1.79 per litre = $0.199 per km.
That's as close as you'll get, drive them hard offroad and the petrol will drink double.

A toyota 1HD-T, 13BT, 14BT etc would be the ticket for a 40, all available in aussie, all direct injection and turbocharged. Sure the 1HD's eat big end bearings but the other 4 cyls won't.

LPG is just a cheaper fuel, it's not more efficient.

KiwiBacon wrote:

98lux wrote:My wifes prado 4.0lt V6

13.8lt per 100 ks

$1.48 per lt= $20.43 per 100 ks

My 105 series Landcruiser 4.2 n/a deisel

13.6lt per 100 ks

$1.79 per lt= $24.35 per 100 ks

+ 5000k oil and filter changes

Comparing a smaller petrol 4wd to a larger diesel with indirect injection is a little silly don't cha think?

D4D prado, around 9 litres per 100km.
at $1.79 per litre = $0.199 per km.
That's as close as you'll get, drive them hard offroad and the petrol will drink double.

A toyota 1HD-T, 13BT, 14BT etc would be the ticket for a 40, all available in aussie, all direct injection and turbocharged. Sure the 1HD's eat big end bearings but the other 4 cyls won't.

LPG is just a cheaper fuel, it's not more efficient.

Have you priced any of those engine options? And availability also? Again you are way off the mark when it comes to bang for buck none come close to the Ford 6.

Also my wifes Prado gets as low as 11.6L/100k thats $17.168/100km take into account cheaper servicing and lower purchase price and you can keep your D4D

booflux wrote: Have you priced any of those engine options? And availability also? Again you are way off the mark when it comes to bang for buck none come close to the Ford 6.

Also my wifes Prado gets as low as 11.6L/100k thats $17.168/100km take into account cheaper servicing and lower purchase price and you can keep your D4D

I screwd up that calc, the D4D at 9L/100 works out at 16.11 c/km.

The D4D's get as low as 7 litres per 100km if you trust the onboard computer. That's 12.5 c/km.
With a similar amount of oil and similar frequency of service, I'm not sure why you think you're saving there. My 8 year old diesel work car has oil change intervals of 20,000km. The petrols of the same model and year don't.
The V6 and D4D are exactly the same price here new. They also offer a poverty pack diesel which is $10k cheaper.

In the same ADR81/01 test cycle the petrol drinks 13.1 litres, the diesel drinks 9.3.
That's 40% more fuel and it's only 20% cheaper at the moment.

Availability of those engines (13,14 B series), go find a wrecker of Toyota and Hino light trucks.

KiwiBacon wrote:
Is that your thought process or engines you've almost installed?
Only problem with the cummins in the part of the world is the turbos are huge and on the side that gets in the way of your steering.
The same problem the yanks have trying to fit the Isuzu's in.

Thought process only. The OM 617 in the G has exhaust and inlet on the same side of the motor as the steering ATM. the steering shaft is fairly low and out of the way in the G. I've also got quite a lot of height to play with in the G.

I reckon with a GQ transfer case and 3.9 GQ diffs and the 3200rpm pump mod it'll have about twice my current HP, over twice my current torque and cruise pretty well.

I don't want the car for the harder stuff as my suzuki is set up for that, but I would like to be able to do longer trips with more road Km's and tow.

Steve.

KiwiBacon wrote:

98lux wrote:My wifes prado 4.0lt V6

13.8lt per 100 ks

$1.48 per lt= $20.43 per 100 ks

My 105 series Landcruiser 4.2 n/a deisel

13.6lt per 100 ks

$1.79 per lt= $24.35 per 100 ks

+ 5000k oil and filter changes

Comparing a smaller petrol 4wd to a larger diesel with indirect injection is a little silly don't cha think?

D4D prado, around 9 litres per 100km.
at $1.79 per litre = $0.199 per km.
That's as close as you'll get, drive them hard offroad and the petrol will drink double.

A toyota 1HD-T, 13BT, 14BT etc would be the ticket for a 40, all available in aussie, all direct injection and turbocharged. Sure the 1HD's eat big end bearings but the other 4 cyls won't.

LPG is just a cheaper fuel, it's not more efficient.

cheaper means its more efficiant on the wallet. more power costs less money to run with lpg.

Jes

I had a 4 runner with the commo v6 auto, excellent combination on and off road and wasnt too bad on fuel.

jessie928 wrote: cheaper means its more efficiant on the wallet. more power costs less money to run with lpg.

Jes

Fuelwatch puts LPG at a little under half the price of ULP. It's only got half the energy content per litre so you're not far ahead on price.

Throw in the limited range, large tank eating into your interior space and limited fuelling stations it doesn't look that attractive.

KiwiBacon wrote:Fuelwatch puts LPG at a little under half the price of ULP. It's only got half the energy content per litre so you're not far ahead on price.

It has around 75% of the energy content, so it puts you somewhat ahead on price.

No offence but I think you are taking what could be a good point way too far.

chimpboy wrote:It has around 75% of the energy content, so it puts you somewhat ahead on price.

Oops.

if you want power and economy and power why not get a ba-bf xr6 turbo motor and 6 speed box ive heard theat they have transfer kits that the fit to them now good thing is cooloundra wreckers are selling them for aroung 4g motor ang gear box.

i was hopeing for something that wasnt going to cost me overly much, lots of these options are just to far out of my pricerange

AngryElmo wrote:i was hopeing for something that wasnt going to cost me overly much, lots of these options are just to far out of my pricerange

Whats your price range?

well i was lookinding at spending around 3500 to pull me up....... not much i kow but i dont have a huge budget (stinking morgage )

i feel your pain brother damned house payments. Every week i pay enough interest to buy a difflock, fitted, with compressor.

Have a good long think about what you want this car to do long term mate and we'll have a chat about it later.

KiwiBacon wrote:

jessie928 wrote: cheaper means its more efficiant on the wallet. more power costs less money to run with lpg.

Jes

Fuelwatch puts LPG at a little under half the price of ULP. It's only got half the energy content per litre so you're not far ahead on price.

Throw in the limited range, large tank eating into your interior space and limited fuelling stations it doesn't look that attractive.

mate you have no idea on those calcs,

a tull tank of lpg is 60$
a full tank of fuel is 150 or more

tank of petrol goes just over 450kms
a tank of gas goes 350 km's

in a patrol.

jessie928 wrote: mate you have no idea on those calcs,

a tull tank of lpg is 60$
a full tank of fuel is 150 or more

tank of petrol goes just over 450kms
a tank of gas goes 350 km's

in a patrol.

You haven't even said how many litres is in your tank, the $$ to fill is constantly changing but the litres do not.

My diesel rangie, 80 litres = 800km.
Worst economy ever is 6.5 km/l, that's 520km per tank while towing another 4wd with a liftkit on a trailer into a head wind.

AngryElmo wrote:well i was lookinding at spending around 3500 to pull me up....... not much i kow but i dont have a huge budget (stinking morgage )

Like I said, my falcon conversion cost me less than that. Having said that, the only reason I replaced my 2F is because it died. Its good motor, reliable as hell and if all you really need is better economy and the ability to run on angles then LPG is a good option (with the rebate it should cost you $1,200 going on your figures). Makes sense to go this way and save the rest of your budget for lockers or keep saving for a well researched and desireable conversion when you are ready. Be it diesel or petrol.

Good luck.

rockcrawler31 wrote:thanks guys.

i appreciate all the input. I'll pass it on to him.

in hindsight, it makes sense that you would be wringing the V6's neck all the time to get to the peak torque range.

I think he's mainly after reducing the sheer amount of fuel that this thing uses. As a side benefit he'll get better range anyway.

I suppose in the end it'll cost him a bit less to put the gas on (about 2k)

Am i right in thinking it will cost about double that to put the ford 6 in? by the time you buy the conversion kit, the motor, and pay for any small fabrication jobs.

Gas is king...

and my ford 250 xflow swap into the 40 cost me as follows (remember, i'm a tight arse so i got good deals on most stuff)

ford motor - $100 including impco 200 and B2 mixer... came with the rest of the car attached

bellhousing/and engine mount adapter kit - $100 - second hand.

starter motor to suit above kit - $200

radiator tank swapped to suit - $150

Hoses coolant hoses etc - $100

starter motor pinion gear (got sent the wrong one at first) - $40

misc nuts and bolts missing from the kit - $50

drill and drill bit to drill out the old engine mount rivets - $50.

new clutch/ flywheel resurfacing (not that i needed it, just thought i might as well while it was apart) - $250

wiring is pretty much grafted from 2f in there to the 250 harness... so came with the car.

exaust - quoted $250.

so done for a little less than $1500


why? because i am a ford nut... and the 2f was running on 5 cylinders, and was due for a water pump, dizzy, valves, and a starter motor... still pulled like a train tho.

don't discount the 2f tho. i was trying to kill it for over a year so i could justify to myself that i needed to do the swap... closest i got was buggering a distributer...

a well set up LPG setup on a 2f will get you decent economy. i've known one to get down to ~17l/100 k's - with a 4 speed and 31's.... which is bugger all to run.

KiwiBacon wrote: there is nothing in either engine which makes it more efficient.

going with the ford stuff (cause i hate commo v6's with a passion)

over the 2f you have

a crossflow head design
lighter internals
lighter overall engine weight (significantly. i can move a falcon block with cam, crank, rods, and pistons around with a bit of swearing. a bare 2f block is heavier again, not to mention that massive crank)
better designed combustion chamber
EFI
better/ more development on cam specs etc.

not to mention parts availability (walk into an all makes wrecker without at least one falcon???) aftermarket development (from towing motors - 8 second drag cars)

Spend 3500 or less on a little ford fiesta (my gf just got one for 2700 with 12 month rego), uses 6L per 100k. drive this each day and save the 40 for off road use. the money spent can be mostly retrieved if you ever sell the car and you will save over $20 per 100km you drive. use this money saved for mods and to fill the 40 up for weekend fun.

If you spend it on the engine convesion the money is gone. insurance will be tough etc etc. and you will still use 15L / 100km.

Personally I dont like gas. Had i gas car and got the shiats with it.

thehanko wrote:
Personally I dont like gas. Had i gas car and got the shiats with it.

so by that comment, i can discount almost every engine configuration.

had a 4cyl laser. got the shits with it.

6 cyl toyota crown - again, blown head, got the shits.

diesels are no good because i had 2 cracked heads in a Hj45.

v8's are crap because the 253 in my old mans VB used more oil than fuel...

in fact the only engine type i haven't cracked the shits at at some point is a rotary... therefore rotaries are the best ever.

Yeh as a few guys mentioned the ford motor is the go.They are virtually free as no one wants them.They are a straight 6 and im guessing they would be not to hard to fit and they have more power and torque than the commo v6.Plus they are very reliable.

Id get the latest one I could afford and fit it.The later ones make a lot more power than the early efi 5 litre v8s.

I have had a few 40s and one had a efi 5 ltr commo motor and turbo 700 in it.It wasent bad but it was pretty heavy

bad_religion_au wrote:

thehanko wrote:
Personally I dont like gas. Had i gas car and got the shiats with it.

so by that comment, i can discount almost every engine configuration.

had a 4cyl laser. got the shits with it.

6 cyl toyota crown - again, blown head, got the shits.

diesels are no good because i had 2 cracked heads in a Hj45.

v8's are crap because the 253 in my old mans VB used more oil than fuel...

in fact the only engine type i haven't cracked the shits at at some point is a rotary... therefore rotaries are the best ever.

I see your point, however I had 2 identical cars, both vt commos, 1 on gas 1 on petrol. I really disliked the way the gas car, drove, drank, was never quite right. Maybe the new tech is much better though.

bad_religion_au wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote: there is nothing in either engine which makes it more efficient.

going with the ford stuff (cause i hate commo v6's with a passion)

over the 2f you have

a crossflow head design
lighter internals
lighter overall engine weight (significantly. i can move a falcon block with cam, crank, rods, and pistons around with a bit of swearing. a bare 2f block is heavier again, not to mention that massive crank)
better designed combustion chamber
EFI
better/ more development on cam specs etc.

not to mention parts availability (walk into an all makes wrecker without at least one falcon???) aftermarket development (from towing motors - 8 second drag cars)

So what's the fuel consumption and how does that compare to a well tuned 2F?

How Thirsty is your 2F?

Gives us an idea on how great the benefits could be of a swap.