Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I believe that you're going the wrong way about it. Do a Business plan and get a good idea of what your cost base will be. This will determine your prices and whether it is viable at all. If it comes out positive then go to Council and check out suitability of property and terrain for 4x4 usage. Then decide if you want to pay fees etc for Material Change of Use of the property. Remember this can still be kicked in the backside by council. Timescales before you even start using the place will typically be 1.5 years.
Good luck

bogged wrote:

maxtrax wrote:I currently live on 500 acres with 1400 close by but is 8hrs from sydney.

I think 8 hours would shit can most peoples interest in going.

but that's not where the park is going to be, just where is currently lives. It isn't his property, its some other blokes

grimbo wrote:

bogged wrote:

maxtrax wrote:I currently live on 500 acres with 1400 close by but is 8hrs from sydney.

I think 8 hours would shit can most peoples interest in going.

but that's not where the park is going to be, just where is currently lives. It isn't his property, its some other blokes

I thought he said close by earlier in the thread...

they are considering laguna, wollombi, singleton and possaible seaham/booral area totaly determaned by land size and price but i think morelikly denman jerrys plain.

the area of 4x4 use would be made tight course like nissan trials winch change etc and some seenic drives as for da's etc they do realise that this will take time but are intertested in the idea.

how does the club/comp insurance thing make it cheaper or easyer.

mentioning booral. does anyone know why the winch challenges died out there?
maybe that property is up for some use? and i know a council engineer who looks after that area who could point you in the right direction too
all above board but just let you know what you might be in for etc.

there are some large properties out near girvan that could be worth a look also murray. not much past booral but alot have hilly terrain and creeks.

the hoops you have to jump through these days can be quite full on.
but its all achievable, you just have to know how to play the game.

i'd say do a business plan, see if it seems viable.
find a property or 3.
talk to the council first hand. go to DAP meeting, (council hold them weekly) and go in with a few basic plans and some data and they will tell you where you are at, what you would be up for, their support or otherwise.
then go away and see if it is viable.
then go along the paper trail if it is.

would the insurance be easier (or would you scare too many people off) if you said people needed to have 3rd party property insurance as a minimum??
any insurance gurus able to shed light?

driver training/education is another thing which could be conducted there.

why not give a few places like lcmp, black duck valley, mannar park, emu creek a call and ask them about who they get their insurance through then give those companies a ring and ask them about what you would need?

DIRTY ROCK STAR wrote:mentioning booral. does anyone know why the winch challenges died out there?
maybe that property is up for some use? and i know a council engineer who looks after that area who could point you in the right direction too
all above board but just let you know what you might be in for etc.

there are some large properties out near girvan that could be worth a look also murray. not much past booral but alot have hilly terrain and creeks.

the hoops you have to jump through these days can be quite full on.
but its all achievable, you just have to know how to play the game.

i'd say do a business plan, see if it seems viable.
find a property or 3.
talk to the council first hand. go to DAP meeting, (council hold them weekly) and go in with a few basic plans and some data and they will tell you where you are at, what you would be up for, their support or otherwise.
then go away and see if it is viable.
then go along the paper trail if it is.

would the insurance be easier (or would you scare too many people off) if you said people needed to have 3rd party property insurance as a minimum??
any insurance gurus able to shed light?

driver training/education is another thing which could be conducted there.

DRS you seem pretty switched on with your approach, take note of what drs says.

However alot of people are looking at this a little dooms dayish - nah council wont pass it, nah itll be too small, nah itll.....

Lets look at it constructively.

I grew up on 100 acres of 50% cleared bush. it used to take an hour to drive around every section loosly, once, so make it 6 times that and rather than 1 200 x 200 m paddock you drive across in 30 seconds,put int tracks and you would drive around that for 10 min or more depending on difficulty.

Add in a 4wd pars sales desk perhaps? get an arb or simliar supplyer and offer upgrades etc.

or get arb / tjm etc to sponser the site, banners etc and they kick in on public liability.

I think the 10000 public liability figure some one threw in earlier would be a minimum, but thats not to say it will kill off the idea. all businesses have costs.

I think the hard part - though it sounds like they are willing to do the work, is the time they would need to invest doing the research. for instance trying to find a public liability company who will allow a per vehicle liability fee, so each person who drives in fills out 2 forms - i being daily usage, 1 being the days insurance.

Many councils are breaking their necks to bring tourism and jobs into rural areas - so I would expect them to be fairly supportive as long as you push it as a recreational facility not a hoon pad.

They will need earth moving equipment to maintain the tracks from time to time, basic facilities to start.

As earlier mentioned the penrith whitewater center can be loosly compared in some ways.

casual usage is fairly common and people there pay $28 per person per day if they bring their own gear. but at the same time its not those customers who keep the center open, its corporate groups and tourism who keep their gates open - their difficulty is the cost of pumping the water which costs 00's per hour. so in that respect its very different.

There is a group up near coffs harbour called raleigh race way who have a go kart track as their main business but now offer a 4wd bus tour and horse riding to accompany it. so ideas like their 4wd bus thing might be an option as well.

http://www.raleighraceway.com.au/pages/gen_f.html

I think there is potencial for this to work, but it would have to be done well to be viable financially.

so i would start taking a checklist of points to research, ideas to promote, etc etc then look into what else people can do for their $$ and see if it all adds up.

Its funny, when we look at what we pay for 1 and 1/2 hours at the movies at $15 per person, a family will spend $60 in no time, but then only want to pay $20 to have free reign on someones propoerty for 8 hours. I am the other way around. a good park with constant 4wding and recovery if i break something is worth more to me. better value than 80km in a day of which 77km are fire trail and 3 km are a challenge.

I think it could work but i would not want it as my only source of income at the start.

on the upside, the worse the land the less it is worth for farming and thus the cheaper it is, yet all the beter for some 4wding.

One of your biggest issues is going to be a DA.
Your best bet is to try and get the immediately surrounding communitee behind it first - local servo gets more business, community gets to use any dams onsite in case of fires in the area etc... Your neighbouring properties need to undertsand this as well.

If it's near a one-horse town, all the better. It brings people to them.

Does any body remember Howes Valley and what a success that was.

Classic example of what will happen, those people lost everything even there house.

Do you know what there problem was DA, and money, you are going to need bucket loads.

I remember Howes Valley and its downfall also

but....

that was also back when there was alot more terrain available locally
these days not much of it is accessable, so an alternative "might" be viable again

So if authorities,local councils,NPWS, are locking access to areas, do you think there going to green light a 4wd park.......... with the impression its just going to be filled with red neck hoons ?????

Sorry for being so negative about this subject.........but its going to be a massive up hill push to get this going.

yeah but local councils have policies..
anything is achievable with the right wording and data.
also, Councillors are members of the public who get voted in.
as squik said if you have a few local businesses saying how beneficial your business will be, that can sway it. Councillors usually have no technical knowledge they just want to get voted in. or maybe a few bucks their way?

i think its alot of hoops to jump thru but definitely achievable.
alot will depend on the site, find a good site and a large site with nice neighbours and IMHO your 90% there

Yeah..............Maybe

You need land with access on to a main road not one that goes thru or near other peoples land,etc, You wouldn't want to buy your own country retreat to all of a sudden find 300 cars driving past your front gate on a weekend.
Anything is possible but its all how you approach people and thru the right channels.
NPWS are slowly changing there opions of 4wds due to the hard work of some clubs and the association.

AZZA FJ40 wrote:What do they charge at Landcruiser Park?

LCMP charges are as of the 1st of July 2008
$38 per 24hrs
$25 for day only
$190 for 6 to 7 nights
They have 3 campsites with amenities i.e. tiolets, hot & cold water in showers
When they have big comps the prices differ for that particular area, as they are usually cordoned off but not always.
Hope that helps a tad

steelo

taps wrote:So if authorities, local councils, NPWS, are locking access to areas, do you think there going to green light a 4wd park.......... with the impression its just going to be filled with red neck hoons ?.

While I agree on what your saying,
thin from the parks point of view..
4b park versus 20,000 4wds flying thru their park? I think they would almost buy you the land. Their costs would drop by 50% on maintanance of trails alone, and having to replace signs broken weekly by dumb fucks.

taps wrote:Does any body remember Howes Valley and what a success that was.

Classic example of what will happen, those people lost everything even there house.

Do you know what there problem was DA, and money, you are going to need bucket loads.

Howes Valley was forced to close because of complaints from their neighbors.

Bush65 wrote:

taps wrote:Does any body remember Howes Valley and what a success that was.

Classic example of what will happen, those people lost everything even there house.

Do you know what there problem was DA, and money, you are going to need bucket loads.

Howes Valley was forced to close because of complaints from their neighbors.

That wasnt directly what caused it, a few did complain yes but in the end it was council that forced it's closure by putting unrealistic demands on John and Kim.
Two i can remember were no more than about 2 cars per campsite and fire fighting equipment and toilets at every campsite, and many others things that even caravan parks and national parks dont have to do.
Council basically went from being pro to anti and made it that hard that they couldnt afford to keep fighting and did unfortunatley lose it all eventually.

I think all the parks up here in QLD, and i might be wrong, did start of as a working cattle property or a camping property and they slowly introduced tracks and 4wding to become what they are today. I think also as previously posted that neighbours and neighbouring propertys have a massive influence on the longivity of a park.
It is a shame that there is not a dedicated 4wd park with in 2 hours from sydney and i am positive that it would be a success and well supported venue by sydney wheelers, i just dont think it will be supported by the areas local council or any other group who is anti 4WD, and there are plenty of them out there.

I think it could be viable if its a welcoming environment. if at any stage people feel they cant come cause they are in a stock jackaroo and wont be cool enough then there goes 80% of the soccer mums who want to go away for the weekend in the 4b. so it would need to be carfully marketed.

Also councils have guidelines - these guide lines are the route to any acceptance.

they will say stuff like:
must be for the good of the community - so in your application you need to say - it will benefit the community by..... it has tyhe support of......

then it must not damage the envionment long term - so in your application you need to outline your policies re environmental regeneration and how x amount of revenue will go into reforesting areas of the property blah blah blah.

then when they go through the list they tick every box and have a hard time saying NO!

If you just go in and say i wanna do this. then they will give you a list of reasons to say no and its much harder to get through the list in hind sight.

A few thoughts!

in selecting a site, do not share street or track access with ANY other property, as it has been the bain or downfall of many others!!! some were forced to close due to the neighbours / council forcing a road upgrade due to the increased traffic!!

Take it slow! initially advertise the park as a 'club 4wd park for day trips' this allows the insurance company time to get used to you!! as the clubs insurance will be in place for a portion of the 'day run'. Then advertise 'bush camping and basic facilities' for pre-organised groups! this means people bring the right gear and do not expect to be staying at the HILTON. Many people have been overly critical of other parks with what they deem as sub-standard amenities, damn toughen up, its the bush and you are camping!! Dont sell it as 'THE BEST' but promote it through the clubs first, take it slow and you will have something good in the end, it will also allow you to build the tracks and amenities, without bad publicity.

[quote="1MadEngineer"]A few thoughts!

in selecting a site, do not share street or track access with ANY other property, as it has been the bain or downfall of many others!!! some were forced to close due to the neighbours / council forcing a road upgrade due to the increased traffic!!

quote]

or just fork out the $$ upgrade the road.
it adds value to your property and with some haggling it wouldnt be too extreme. although im the first to admit it does add up quickly.

i would disagree with greg abit actually.
if you share a public road for access with other places, then you would possibly not be up for 100% of the costs. as others are benefitting from the access.
if you are the sole user, in a way its easier to get approval but you are up for 100% of usage and costs.

but this is all stuff you can discuss with council when its a specific site and specific council.

1MadEngineer wrote:A few thoughts!

in selecting a site, do not share street or track access with ANY other property, as it has been the bain or downfall of many others!!! some were forced to close due to the neighbours / council forcing a road upgrade due to the increased traffic!!

Take it slow! initially advertise the park as a 'club 4wd park for day trips' this allows the insurance company time to get used to you!! as the clubs insurance will be in place for a portion of the 'day run'. Then advertise 'bush camping and basic facilities' for pre-organised groups! this means people bring the right gear and do not expect to be staying at the HILTON. Many people have been overly critical of other parks with what they deem as sub-standard amenities, damn toughen up, its the bush and you are camping!! Dont sell it as 'THE BEST' but promote it through the clubs first, take it slow and you will have something good in the end, it will also allow you to build the tracks and amenities, without bad publicity.

Yes!

Get DA etc through, speak with clubs, speak with insurance etc then have a soft opening.

This is definitely they way to start.

Finding a suitable property would be a good start first.

taps wrote:Finding a suitable property would be a good start first.

I would go the other way - do the majority of the background work - finding insurance companies etc first, discuss with councils - this might effect where you buy.

Also if you cant find an insurance company to work with you, you dont want to learn that after you invest a cool million into the land with an expectation that there will be income generated by the 4wd's then learn its not viable.

research first then make steps forward.