Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Posted: **Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:48 pm**

this thread is very interesting from all points put forward.
So basically the normal (if there is one) gas used in air cons is flammable?
Just doesnt ignite as easy as LPG?? I have never ever herd of a air con system going up in flames. But i would think the risk would be higher if using LPG.
This HYCHILL. Is it flammable? if so is it as flammable as LPG or the normal refrigerant gas?
As you would know Tony my old 81 F100 has the old type aircon gas and fittings in it. I have been to a few aircon places to have them regas it with the adapter fittings and all they want to do it sell me a heap of other crap that comes in at about $500. They say that it isnt at all compatible. Now i have no idea on air con stuff but Chuck told me in the past that he regased his old system with the new gas with adapter ports and it apparently still works to this day. So i would assume that the places i have been to are just trying to take me for a ride.
This is why i took intrest in using LPG but are really hesitent on doing so due to the higher risk in the flammable range. And my kids do come in my F truck very often . It is one thing to put myself at risk but not my kids.
Anyway Cheers jamie

Posted: **Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:12 pm**

nottie wrote:this thread is very interesting from all points put forward.
So basically the normal (if there is one) gas used in air cons is flammable?

The normal gases aren't easily flammable, but if ignited produce seriously dangerous fumes.
The lubrication oil which circulates with the gas is flammable.

Yes Hychill is flammable.

There are esimates of around 20 million vehicles on the road worldwide with hydrocarbon refrigerant gases. Don't hear of many related problems.
Apparently there's a video on the net of someone with a porsche who has their hydrocarbon frigerant lines rupture and shoot flames around the engine. But I haven't been successful in finding that vid.

If you're really concerned about fire in your vehicle, the only way to be safe is to drain all fuel and oil and strip out the electrical system. Being concerned about a few grams of lpg when you're sitting on many litres of petrol seems a little backwards.

Posted: **Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:36 pm**

Mate my Effie holds over 120 ltres of LPG and about 180 of petrol. The risk of fire where they are positioned isnt a concern. well not as much of a concern then the air con lines and fittings that are right near the passenger feet as the air con is a after market system with the main unit fan thing in the middle of the car infront of the dash (sanden is the label on it i think).
With all the experience i have had with Gas camping gear and the likes i dont think i want to take the risk with rubber Orings in the system.
On the other hand my gas system did have a leak on the fitting on the filter ( next to the motor ) and didnt cause an issue at all but i like to think i was lucky with that.
I am keen to regas my air con with what ever is cheap really but i am just basically scared with using the LPG.

On another note if there is no oil in the system how is it put in and what type is to be used?

Posted: **Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:49 pm**

nottie wrote: I am keen to regas my air con with what ever is cheap really but i am just basically scared with using the LPG.

On another note if there is no oil in the system how is it put in and what type is to be used?

If hydrocarbons scare you, then best not to use them. After all you'll be forever worried about it.
Unfortunately your other options are costly ones which will give you a poorer performing system.

The oil is fed in through the same fill ports as the gas, but there are many different types which are compatible with different types of gas. This is one of the reasons changing from R12 to R134a is costly.
I got some oil from the erg1000.com guys, it appears to be compatible with almost all common refrigerants.

Posted: **Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:29 pm**

Tony - does this change your mind?

The gases on offer today are highly refined, carefully blended high quality hydrocarbons - they are blended to match the temp/press curves of R12 and R134a.

Procrastinate (sorry if spelling is incorrect but its late) using HC in auto air conditioning is not illegal anywhere in australia - for a while it was banned by clause 242 in NSW - but that was repealed (Dela Bosca ) over 3 years ago.

Safety issues - yep its flammable - and all 250 to 300 gramms of it could catch fire - however the 90 ltrs (97 kgs) of petrol, diesel or maybe 75 ltrs (40 kgs) of the fuel you pump in every day - send down the front of the car and then burn is a damn site more dangerous than 250 / 300 grams in an AC system

Next on flamability - regardless of what gas is in your sustem - it burns - maybe not at 460 Deg C like HC - but maybe at 750 Deg C with R12 or R134a - but the main point here is its not the gas that starts the fire - its the lubricant / oil - which has an auto iginition point of less than 220 Deg C when under pressure (which it is when in a AC system thats running) - and when the lubricant burns - the heat generated is in excess of 2000 Deg C - so it doesnt matter what refrigerant you use its going to burn.

The only difference is when HC's burn the by-products are carbon and steam - not critical, but when you burn gases that contain chlorine or flourine the fumes given off are highly toxic and will cause death. Just read an MSDS for R134a - dont take my word for it.

The critical issue from changing from any other refigerant to HC is to get the system clean, so changing oil and reciever driers is a very good idea.

Also if a system has been 'dry' for a while - or even if it is just an old dirty system, adding any new gas can eventuate in leaks because

1) If a system is empty / dry the o rings will dry up and perish - and will not seal.

2) Old dirty systems MAY have the intergrity of o rings held together with gunk/muck/old sticky oil, and when you pump in a new clean refrigerant - this cleans the gunk/muck old sticky oil off - hey presto it leaks - so if you are going to change be prepared to change the O rings (they cost about $5 for the lot) and use the right ones - not normal rubber / black o rings .

I feel you are missing the point here - there is a world of difference between LPG - and refined and blended HC's -

These are not a cheap cop out they are an engineered solution to an enormous problem associated with R134a - not only from an environmental point of view - but also with performance in mind.

A 'proper' conversion from R12 to R134a is an expensive process and unless its done by the book it will never perform properly.

R134a is a very poor substitute - it lacks performance on HOT days due to the relatively low critical temp - it has a high GWP - and has issues with lubricants.

Hydrocarbon refrigerants (NOTICE NOT LPG) are a perfect solution - they do not form acids when moisture is present, they are non toxic - unlike R134a.

HC's have good critical temperature performance matching those of R12.

Typical Land Rovers will have between (+/-) 600 - 1000 g of refrigerant, with a refined, blended purpose engineered hydrocarbon only 200 - 350g is used.

R134a has a GWP of +/- 1500 and an atmospheric lifetime of > 100 years

HC's have a GWP of < 3 with an atmospheric lifetime of less than 1 year.

However I do agree with one point you made - they should not be available to everyone - they should be controlled similar to chemical refrigerants - not for the safety issue as much - but as you know - we train long and hard for our industry - and putting any high pressure gas in the hands of Joe Public is a recipie for disaster - and when it goes wrong its the product that gets the blame - not the inexperiance person doing the job.

It might be interesting to note that the 'apparent' solution that Du-Pont et al are working with - is R152 - and guess what - it has a very high percentage of HC in it - in an attempt to solve lubrication, critical temp and acidity issues !!!!

If done properly - by someone who knows what they are doing, using the correct HC - it is the perfect solution to a very large problem - worldwide.

And the risk of getting any burns from a hc charged system has been proven to be almost none existant, however the chances of being poisonned or asphixiated by chemical gases is very real.

All quotes from here: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-cha ... r-con.html

Posted: **Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:58 pm**

Very interesting read there Ben.
I do assume it is all about this HICHILL you mentioned eqarlier??
Is there anywhere on the Nth of Brizzy that you know of that deal with this???

Posted: **Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:21 pm**

We use hychill at work on all our gear(mine site).

hychill has a flammable sticker on the side of the cylinder.
U need to use different oil for it,
U need to flush the whole system out with a solvent before filling with hychill to get rid of built up burnt oil and shit, we have had a fair few problems with blocked tx valves as the fleet slowly changes over to it.
It works very well

So I cant see a problem with flammable argument as hychill is aswell, the only thing i would di different is flush the system several times and change the oil.

Posted: **Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:15 pm**

I'm pretty sure Hychill is compatible with 95% of common A/C lubricants.

Posted: **Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:08 pm**

nottie wrote:Very interesting read there Ben.
I do assume it is all about this HICHILL you mentioned eqarlier??
Is there anywhere on the Nth of Brizzy that you know of that deal with this???

AFAIK, HYCHILL is the only commercially available HC refrigerant.

send me a PM and I will PM you the email address of Ladas (from AULRO) - he seems to know installers in most states.

Posted: **Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:27 am**

So apart from the "precision mix" and the certified installers (guys with a connector) - anyone care to explain how the vertified and legal Hychill is any different in risk to LPG?

I see them as the same thing, and the risk profile being the same as well.

Not one of the things that keeps me awake at night. (Ever seen the crash test results for an XF ute - that will keep you awake at night...)

Paul

Posted: **Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:18 am**

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:So apart from the "precision mix" and the certified installers (guys with a connector) - anyone care to explain how the vertified and legal Hychill is any different in risk to LPG?

I see them as the same thing, and the risk profile being the same as well.

Not one of the things that keeps me awake at night. (Ever seen the crash test results for an XF ute - that will keep you awake at night...)

Paul

Did you follow the link???

In addition to this standard LPG contains too many contaminants to be good for a system, sulphur, oxides, moisture etc., etc.,

That's not to say that LPG won't work. Maybe not as well or as long (i.e. system damage) as the proper stuff.

Can't see the risk being any different - unless the impurities in the LPG can increase the risk of it leaking into the cab.

Posted: **Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:22 pm**

the Hychill Gas has been chemically altered. I woud not use LPG in any system as it is heavier than air and will collect around your feet if there is a leak in the cab of your car. LPG will not mix with oil. The Hychill gas will. It has been proven to work in almost every refrigerated cooling system and in some cases works better than the original. Due to the need for less gas the Hychill systems work more efficiently and use almost half the power consumption.

Posted: **Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:25 pm**

Oh and if anyone is interested in environmentaly frendly home aircons then check out the Benson airconditioning website

http://www.bensonairconditioning.com.au/

taken from their website

All Benson units sold with the R290 Refrigerant will be supplied Carbon Neutral for "the first year of operation"*. Benson Airconditioning will buy trees to offset the CO² created by the electricity made to run your Benson Enviro3 system.

R290 has only a Global Warming Potential of 3, compared to R410a which has a Global Warming Potential of 1890.

Choosing a R290 system combined with our commitment to offsetting the CO² for the first 12 months is a "Win Win situation for You, Your Family and Planet Earth."

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:11 am**

built4thrashing wrote:Oh and if anyone is interested in environmentaly frendly home aircons then check out the Benson airconditioning website

http://www.bensonairconditioning.com.au/

taken from their website

All Benson units sold with the R290 Refrigerant will be supplied Carbon Neutral for "the first year of operation"*. Benson Airconditioning will buy trees to offset the CO² created by the electricity made to run your Benson Enviro3 system.

R290 has only a Global Warming Potential of 3, compared to R410a which has a Global Warming Potential of 1890.

Choosing a R290 system combined with our commitment to offsetting the CO² for the first 12 months is a "Win Win situation for You, Your Family and Planet Earth."

Smells like green-washing to me.
Using propane refrigerant is a good start, but IMO claiming to be carbon neutral is BS.

BTW LPG and Hychill, R290 etc are all heavier than air. The only way they'll pool around your feet is firstly if you have a leak, secondly you have no air movement in the vehicle.

Propane (C3H8) is exactly the same weight as CO2 and all refrigerants are heavier than air. Does your expelled breath collect around your feet, displacing oxygen while you drive?
Nope.

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:16 am**

ISUZUROVER wrote: That's not to say that LPG won't work. Maybe not as well or as long (i.e. system damage) as the proper stuff.

The biggest problem I see with LPG is the impurities. The potential for moisture to freeze up or other gunk to clog the TX valve is there.
The industry here has their blinkers on, R134a is all they know and all they care about.

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:50 am**

Is there any relation here with your typical 3 way fridge. They run on LPG and there are also fridge freezers in houses on Frazer island that run on LPG and they are in a home??? Shorly more danger involved as the house doesnt move and have air movement like a car would traveling around.

On another note if your air con in your car is on you generaly have the windows up so if there is a leak of any gas at all from your air con what are the hazards with breathing any of them in?

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:27 am**

KiwiBacon wrote:
ISUZUROVER wrote: That's not to say that LPG won't work. Maybe not as well or as long (i.e. system damage) as the proper stuff.
The biggest problem I see with LPG is the impurities. The potential for moisture to freeze up or other gunk to clog the TX valve is there.
The industry here has their blinkers on, R134a is all they know and all they care about.

In *theory* the recevier drier should aggressively pull any moisture from the system, and also filter any chunky bits. That's why I put a new one in. I'm doubt it would repair an oil degraded by moisture and turned acidic however.

When they change over to R134a, they don't get all the oil out that is in there, they generally just add a bit more and cross their fingers. I dont know any way to flush all the old mineral oil out of ths system.

System efficiency is only partly defined by the working fluid. The cycle has a fixed efficiency in thermodynamics. Provided the fluid matches the systems designed temperature / flow / volume / pressure rates, system A with fluid A and System B with Fluid B would both perform quite efficiently.

I'm not confident that R134a is a less efficient fluid, just that it is not matched as well to the design of the older systems fluid flow rates. HC refigerant is a closer fit to R12. LPG is a close fit to Hychill, especially if you use the bottle when it's 1/2 empty. The recommendation is to use the heavier volatiles.

Paul

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:43 am**

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote: System efficiency is only partly defined by the working fluid. The cycle has a fixed efficiency in thermodynamics. Provided the fluid matches the systems designed temperature / flow / volume / pressure rates, system A with fluid A and System B with Fluid B would both perform quite efficiently.

The problem is I believe the relevant working temperatures.
To cool you need to be able to both evaporate and condense the gas.

If the system pressures get too high (ambient heat) then evaporating the gas becomes hard. If the temperatures get too high in the condensor (again ambient heat) then condensing it becomes difficult too.
The compressor works harder (higher pressures) to get the same result, the efficiency falls to the point where the system barely works.

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:44 am**

nottie wrote:Is there any relation here with your typical 3 way fridge. They run on LPG and there are also fridge freezers in houses on Frazer island that run on LPG and they are in a home??? Shorly more danger involved as the house doesnt move and have air movement like a car would traveling around.

On another note if your air con in your car is on you generaly have the windows up so if there is a leak of any gas at all from your air con what are the hazards with breathing any of them in?

No relation whatsoever. The 2 way adsorbtion fridge is a little miracle of operation. Einstein himself patented a version of one. Whilst not as efficient as a compressor based system, the ability to operate off a simple heat differential makes them great potential future options for solar.

The gas risk is similar, but I view LPG as low risk in most cases except boats. Boats are high LPG risk.

Paul

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:15 pm**

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:
Boats are high LPG risk.

Paul

X2!!

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:28 pm**

http://www.hychill.com.au/pdf/pasolpgr.pdf

an interesting read

and a quote from someone putting r290 in thier system
"far fecking easier than a timing belt replacement."

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:51 pm**

ive heard of a cigerette lighter left on a dash blowing the windscreen out of a car, so even with only 200 or 300 grams of lgp leaked out of the ac sitting in the cabin of a car waiting for the smallest of sparks, i dont think id like to consider the consecquenses, esspesialy those of us that have kids in the car as well, fair enough if it was all under the bonnet, big deal the car goes up in flames, but that gas is also pumped threw the firewall into the cabin of the car, and all it needs is a little spark, yes they other gases may have toxic fumes when they burn, but inside the car it would be very unlikly there would be anything hot enough to ignite it. in my mind using lpg to save a few hundred bucks is just stupid when you think of what could happen if something did go wrong.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:12 pm**

GRINCH wrote:ive heard of a cigerette lighter left on a dash blowing the windscreen out of a car, so even with only 200 or 300 grams of lgp leaked out of the ac sitting in the cabin of a car waiting for the smallest of sparks, i dont think id like to consider the consecquenses, esspesialy those of us that have kids in the car as well, fair enough if it was all under the bonnet, big deal the car goes up in flames, but that gas is also pumped threw the firewall into the cabin of the car, and all it needs is a little spark, yes they other gases may have toxic fumes when they burn, but inside the car it would be very unlikly there would be anything hot enough to ignite it. in my mind using lpg to save a few hundred bucks is just stupid when you think of what could happen if something did go wrong.

You done with the perfect combination of extremely unlikely events yet?

Or is there more baseless scaremongering to come?

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:30 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:
You done with the perfect combination of extremely unlikely events yet?

Or is there more baseless scaremongering to come?

why is it baseless? All risk assessments have two basic elements: risk and consequence. The risk of this happening is extremely small but the consequence could be very severe. Some people choose to use LPG, Hychill etc in their car A/C systems and some don't. It is as simple as that. If you want to use it fine, go ahead. If you don't fine, use something else. Regardless of the refrigerant used it is important to get it done properly.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:45 pm**

Tojo wrote: why is it baseless? All risk assessments have two basic elements: risk and consequence. The risk of this happening is extremely small but the consequence could be very severe. Some people choose to use LPG, Hychill etc in their car A/C systems and some don't. It is as simple as that. If you want to use it fine, go ahead. If you don't fine, use something else. Regardless of the refrigerant used it is important to get it done properly.

It's not baseless, it's a prefectly aligned combination of extremely rare events.

He's requiring:
A sudden and very fast leak (rupture) in the evaporator core which enters the cabin.
All the gas to escape into the cabin in a time and manner which will not allow it to drain out.
An sufficient ignition source to be present.
No intervention or mitigation of the gas concentration between it dumping and igniting.
People to suddenly appear and be injured.

The millions of hydrocarbon gassed aircon systems in use worldwide suggest such a combination happens rarely enough that it has not yet been reported.
You've got a far better chance of being kicked to death by a donkey.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:37 pm**

KiwiBacon wrote:
Tojo wrote: why is it baseless? All risk assessments have two basic elements: risk and consequence. The risk of this happening is extremely small but the consequence could be very severe. Some people choose to use LPG, Hychill etc in their car A/C systems and some don't. It is as simple as that. If you want to use it fine, go ahead. If you don't fine, use something else. Regardless of the refrigerant used it is important to get it done properly.
It's not baseless, it's a prefectly aligned combination of extremely rare events.

He's requiring:
A sudden and very fast leak (rupture) in the evaporator core which enters the cabin.
All the gas to escape into the cabin in a time and manner which will not allow it to drain out.
An sufficient ignition source to be present.
No intervention or mitigation of the gas concentration between it dumping and igniting.
People to suddenly appear and be injured.

The millions of hydrocarbon gassed aircon systems in use worldwide suggest such a combination happens rarely enough that it has not yet been reported.
You've got a far better chance of being kicked to death by a donkey.

or is it just that you are so blinded by your own self importance that you cant see past your own views meaning everyone elses points are baseless...

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:51 pm**

WOOHOOOO!!

...time for the bitch-fighting to start ...

now ...

wod I do with that popcorn ... ... ... any-one got some fresh???

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:49 pm**

80lsy gq wrote:
KiwiBacon wrote:
Tojo wrote: why is it baseless? All risk assessments have two basic elements: risk and consequence. The risk of this happening is extremely small but the consequence could be very severe. Some people choose to use LPG, Hychill etc in their car A/C systems and some don't. It is as simple as that. If you want to use it fine, go ahead. If you don't fine, use something else. Regardless of the refrigerant used it is important to get it done properly.
It's not baseless, it's a prefectly aligned combination of extremely rare events.

He's requiring:
A sudden and very fast leak (rupture) in the evaporator core which enters the cabin.
All the gas to escape into the cabin in a time and manner which will not allow it to drain out.
An sufficient ignition source to be present.
No intervention or mitigation of the gas concentration between it dumping and igniting.
People to suddenly appear and be injured.

The millions of hydrocarbon gassed aircon systems in use worldwide suggest such a combination happens rarely enough that it has not yet been reported.
You've got a far better chance of being kicked to death by a donkey.
or is it just that you are so blinded by your own self importance that you cant see past your own views meaning everyone elses points are baseless...

Given that commercial hydrocarbon refrigerants (e.g. hychill) are legal in ALL STATES in OZ, then I think that a risk assessment has already been done, and has agreed with KB's assessment above.

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:28 pm**

ISUZUROVER wrote:
80lsy gq wrote:
KiwiBacon wrote:
Tojo wrote: why is it baseless? All risk assessments have two basic elements: risk and consequence. The risk of this happening is extremely small but the consequence could be very severe. Some people choose to use LPG, Hychill etc in their car A/C systems and some don't. It is as simple as that. If you want to use it fine, go ahead. If you don't fine, use something else. Regardless of the refrigerant used it is important to get it done properly.
It's not baseless, it's a prefectly aligned combination of extremely rare events.

He's requiring:
A sudden and very fast leak (rupture) in the evaporator core which enters the cabin.
All the gas to escape into the cabin in a time and manner which will not allow it to drain out.
An sufficient ignition source to be present.
No intervention or mitigation of the gas concentration between it dumping and igniting.
People to suddenly appear and be injured.

The millions of hydrocarbon gassed aircon systems in use worldwide suggest such a combination happens rarely enough that it has not yet been reported.
You've got a far better chance of being kicked to death by a donkey.
or is it just that you are so blinded by your own self importance that you cant see past your own views meaning everyone elses points are baseless...

Given that commercial hydrocarbon refrigerants (e.g. hychill) are legal in ALL STATES in OZ, then I think that a risk assessment has already been done, and has agreed with KB's assessment above.

well F#@k me..

maybe i should go to work tomorrow and tell Chuck not to pay for Toms air con ticket then seeing as how you only need to read outerlimits and then you are legally allowed to fill up your air con system with a BBQ bottle

surely i shouldnt need to explain to a couple of experts in the industry

why encouraging that on a public forum is a bad idea

and a few more for good luck

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:31 pm**

i thought we where talking about filling ac out of a bbq gas bottle, obviously the commercially available products have been threw saftey tests and proven to be safe where as i very much doubt you will see on any bbq gas bottle that it is safe to use in a ac system.

Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Re-gassing the AC w/ LPG