Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Gwagensteve wrote: PS I consider a swamper an all terrain tyre. (honestly)

Really?
I have had nothing to do with swampers, but have thus far shrugged them off as too unfriendly for large amounts of road use. I only ask because I have found that the TSL radial is about the only tyre that comes in a 31x9.5R15, a size I am interested in for road tyres for my Sierra, but basically no other manufacturers produce. So you do honestly think they would be usable as A/T tyres? (I currently use simex MTs which I find fine for A/Ts, as a point of comparison). I already have another set for offroad use, I just dont like what manufactueres call "A/Ts" for use as an "A/T".

Highway-Star wrote: I just dont like what manufactueres call "A/Ts" for use as an "A/T".

The AT and MT classes need to be changed.
I class an AT as tyres that perfroms well on road 50% and well offroad 50%e.g MTZs, MTR, STT, KM2.
I class an MT as tyres that ok for little bit of road 20% use and performs extremly well off road 80% e.g Creepy Crawler, Trepador, Extrem Trecker 2, krawler.

SIM79 wrote:

Highway-Star wrote: I just dont like what manufactueres call "A/Ts" for use as an "A/T".

The AT and MT classes need to be changed.
I class an AT as tyres that perfroms well on road 50% and well offroad 50%e.g MTZs, MTR, STT, KM2.
I class an MT as tyres that ok for little bit of road 20% use and performs extremly well off road 80% e.g Creepy Crawler, Trepador, Extrem Trecker 2, krawler.

Thats roughly what I was getting at. I do consider my Firestone ASRs at H/Ts, my Simex MTs as ATs, and my Silverstone extremes as MTs.

Classes will not get changed though, as the road oriented tyres are in sinc with modern road oriented "4wds".

KiwiBacon wrote:I'm interested to see what people have to say about this.
I've just worn out a set of BFG AT's and I can't find anything else that looks quite as appetising to replace them with.

IMHO the BFG A/T is the benchmark of crap.
I had a set on my XJ, my J20 ute and my trailer. I've torn sidewalls, had one BADLY bubble and then theres the extreemly poor performance they give onroad & offroad.
Onroad they aquaplane a bastard - easy way I was once shown to see how a tyre performs in the wet - poor a jug of water over the leading edge and watch how quickly/easily the water runs off the tyre......On a BFG it snakes all over the pace and just leads to aquaplaning on wet roads.
On Gravel they pick up the rocks like NOTHING else out there.....then don't spit the stone out until you get to freeway speed (or give you a nice click click click soundtrack).
Offraod - not THAT bad on dry rock - but in the slightest bit of mud they suck BADLY again....and if those dry rock have a liitle mud between them you'd be hitting them with monentium as you try (in vain) to clear the bloody tread.
my pics - notice just 1. how sandy not clay the mud was & 2. how shallow the mud was.....
pic1
Pic2

BFG A/T SUCK

I'm not defending the AT per se, but posting a photo of a clogged tyre doesn't prove much - I've got plenty of photos of clogged swampers...

I've seen AT's work very well offroad in certain conditions.

I'd still vote MTR as an all round tyre.

Steve.

on the micky thompsons.

I run Dick Cepek Radial F-C-II - 31 x 10.5 x 15. Ive done 70,000 on em. Look like they will easily do 100k +. They are a little noisy (compared to previos ATs). Good for wet on road. Great dirt road tyre. But arent aggressive enough for thick sticky mud.
One downside is they have terrible sideways traction on road in the wet.
Ive been bogged a couple times this last year.

My bro runs radial baja claws. Hes barely got 70,000kms out of them (they are slicks now). They are NOISY. They are awesome in the mud + slush, dirt roads etc. Average on road in wet. He spends far more time in the mud + dirt than me - and has NOT been bogged once in the last year. (Similar places + conditions)

These are both gu 4.2 patrols. Everyday vehicles.

Compared to that - one of my mates has just got 100,000 km out of a set of 16 inch BFG muddies on his landcruiser ute.


My next set - ill look at a mickey thompson mtz or bfg muddy.


Cheers.

Wooders wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:I'm interested to see what people have to say about this.
I've just worn out a set of BFG AT's and I can't find anything else that looks quite as appetising to replace them with.

IMHO the BFG A/T is the benchmark of crap.
I had a set on my XJ, my J20 ute and my trailer. I've torn sidewalls, had one BADLY bubble and then theres the extreemly poor performance they give onroad & offroad.
Onroad they aquaplane a bastard - easy way I was once shown to see how a tyre performs in the wet - poor a jug of water over the leading edge and watch how quickly/easily the water runs off the tyre......On a BFG it snakes all over the pace and just leads to aquaplaning on wet roads.
On Gravel they pick up the rocks like NOTHING else out there.....then don't spit the stone out until you get to freeway speed (or give you a nice click click click soundtrack).
Offraod - not THAT bad on dry rock - but in the slightest bit of mud they suck BADLY again....and if those dry rock have a liitle mud between them you'd be hitting them with monentium as you try (in vain) to clear the bloody tread.
my pics - notice just 1. how sandy not clay the mud was & 2. how shallow the mud was.....
pic1
Pic2

BFG A/T SUCK

I'll second that, BFG ATs are crap. They puncture easily and there onroad performance is bad especially in wet conditions.

Interesting the BFG being called crap - I guess type of vehicle may have something to do with it as I've found them excellent everywhere except mud on my old MK Triton... I've had to brake hard in the wet and they didn't even look like coming unstuck and was surprised at how well they didn't aquaplane... I got 104,000km out of them with ~5mm tread left...

Only complaint is I can't source them in the correct size for the ML...

Destroyed me fifth 35" BFG Muddy yesterday arvo. Makes for number 5 since July 07. Destroyed three throughout last year, and six throughout 2007. Only have three left thank goodness. Quicker they wear out and get destroyed the better. Fine and dandy in Mud, and highway, they just all cack up in the sidewall.

Destroyed a 37" MTR in November. Maybe I have a problem somewhere...


Will be replaced with radial Claws one day.

Gwagensteve wrote:I'm not defending the AT per se, but posting a photo of a clogged tyre doesn't prove much - I've got plenty of photos of clogged swampers...

I've seen AT's work very well offroad in certain conditions.

I'd still vote MTR as an all round tyre.

Steve.

i know what you mean - BUT look at the type of mud and the absolute minimumal amount of it - now get me a pic of a muddie or a swamper clogged with THAT little sandy muck - which normally just drops out of the tread void.
So whilst the pics mightn't say much to you, they certainly do to me.

so is it an ALL TERRAIN or a road tire that will do 100,000k and work as good as a bogger in the mud are you after!

IMO an allterrain should be exactly that! work well in ALL terrain, not a road tire with a few side lugs for looks.

A michelin XML is a real all terrain tire, or anything running a BAR-tread pattern (eg. simex jungle trekker). Bar treads have been used in EVERY terrain in the world for years, they perform acceptably well in all situations.

X2.

"all terrian" is not another way of saying "road tyre" despite what marketing departments think.

Hence my reasoning that a swamper is an "all terrain" tyre.

Sorry, this is a hijack.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:X2.

"all terrian" is not another way of saying "road tyre" despite what marketing departments think.

Hence my reasoning that a swamper is an "all terrain" tyre..

then it depends on what forum your on and the terrain that they encounter more often...
AT on Exploroz is FC II where outback is the majority of terrain mixed with lots of road...

AT on here is Swamper where offroad is the majority

AT on Overlander is Dueler HT-470 where Chapel st is hard core..

YMMV.

Fair point.

Gwagensteve wrote:I'm not defending the AT per se, but posting a photo of a clogged tyre doesn't prove much - I've got plenty of photos of clogged swampers...

I've seen AT's work very well offroad in certain conditions.

I'd still vote MTR as an all round tyre.

Steve.

I daily drive a set of MT/R's & as an all terrain tyre you can't really go wrong.

SIM79 wrote:

Highway-Star wrote: I just dont like what manufactueres call "A/Ts" for use as an "A/T".

The AT and MT classes need to be changed.
I class an AT as tyres that perfroms well on road 50% and well offroad 50%e.g MTZs, MTR, STT, KM2.
I class an MT as tyres that ok for little bit of road 20% use and performs extremly well off road 80% e.g Creepy Crawler, Trepador, Extrem Trecker 2, krawler.

I call an AT tyre something that'll float, MT's tyres that prefer to dig.

Wooders wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:I'm interested to see what people have to say about this.
I've just worn out a set of BFG AT's and I can't find anything else that looks quite as appetising to replace them with.

IMHO the BFG A/T is the benchmark of crap.
I had a set on my XJ, my J20 ute and my trailer. I've torn sidewalls, had one BADLY bubble and then theres the extreemly poor performance they give onroad & offroad.
Onroad they aquaplane a bastard - easy way I was once shown to see how a tyre performs in the wet - poor a jug of water over the leading edge and watch how quickly/easily the water runs off the tyre......On a BFG it snakes all over the pace and just leads to aquaplaning on wet roads.
On Gravel they pick up the rocks like NOTHING else out there.....then don't spit the stone out until you get to freeway speed (or give you a nice click click click soundtrack).
Offraod - not THAT bad on dry rock - but in the slightest bit of mud they suck BADLY again....and if those dry rock have a liitle mud between them you'd be hitting them with monentium as you try (in vain) to clear the bloody tread.
my pics - notice just 1. how sandy not clay the mud was & 2. how shallow the mud was.....
pic1
Pic2

BFG A/T SUCK

That's interesting.
On two sets I had no punctures, nothing at all got through the carcass or the sidewalls. I did have tubes perish, that pissed me off.
The square shoulders let them track on gravel better than other tyres I've driven, but I haven't driven that many which is why I'm asking for opinions.
As for wet weather and aquaplaning. I live in the wettest region of this country, it gets around 3m of rain a year so I encounter wet roads on most trips and standing water every month or so. It takes close to 100mm of water to aquaplane my vehicle. Aquaplaning in 100mm deep puddles isn't unexpected so it doesn't really concern me.
I don't have the stone retention problem you have, not sure why but I don't. Maybe I drive fast enough to throw them out.

Am I after a highway tyre or an offroad tyre?
I guess I'm after a highway tyre that punches above it's weight in snow, sand and gravel. As I've mentioned, I have another set of wheels and tyres for mucky stuff but I tend to avoid mud so they don't get used much.
IMO sand/gravel tyres and mud tyres are at the opposite end of the spectrum, to do well at one will always compromise the other.

I carry chains if I'm expecting difficulty. IMO AT's with chains will get you further than MT's every time.

how about BFG projects! they are nice strong all terrains!

SIM79 wrote:

Highway-Star wrote: I just dont like what manufactueres call "A/Ts" for use as an "A/T".

The AT and MT classes need to be changed.
I class an AT as tyres that perfroms well on road 50% and well offroad 50%e.g MTZs, MTR, STT, KM2.
I class an MT as tyres that ok for little bit of road 20% use and performs extremly well off road 80% e.g Creepy Crawler, Trepador, Extrem Trecker 2, krawler.

I agree =)

1MadEngineer wrote:how about BFG projects! they are nice strong all terrains!

Good call.

Or maybe some of the kevlar Michelin raid tyres.

Highwaystar - I don't think a swamper radial would be a bad compromise at all. I honestly don't think swampers are all that bad on road. By comparison, 'pede's are about 100 times noisier, and I've run Swampers, SX's, and Claws and BFG's on alloys on the same car and yes, the BFG's are lighter and rounder, but it didn't bother me much either way.

PS as an aside, lots of guys running swampers are also running beadlocks, offset rims, excess lift, poor roll stiffness for road use etc... Under those circumstances it's a bit rough to blame the tyres for poor road manners.

steve.

No easy answer here.

I run Pro Comp AT's and they have surprised the hell out of me and a few friends off road.

But their are so many variations in set up, mine have second air's and I have front and rear lockers. Driving skills count too but I have none of those

Only 3 trucks drove this all had front and rear lockers one on 35 simex one on Q78's and my AT's

what size pro comp AT where you running?

matt.mcinnes wrote:No easy answer here.

I run Pro Comp AT's and they have surprised the hell out of me and a few friends off road.

They look like an option. I see if I can find a dealer somewhere close to quote.

BFG Projects I gather are the BAJA TA pattern?

Not in 225/75R16 unfortunately.

Gwagensteve wrote: Highwaystar - I don't think a swamper radial would be a bad compromise at all. I honestly don't think swampers are all that bad on road. By comparison, 'pede's are about 100 times noisier, and I've run Swampers, SX's, and Claws and BFG's on alloys on the same car and yes, the BFG's are lighter and rounder, but it didn't bother me much either way.

PS as an aside, lots of guys running swampers are also running beadlocks, offset rims, excess lift, poor roll stiffness for road use etc... Under those circumstances it's a bit rough to blame the tyres for poor road manners.

steve.

Cheers Steve
I would personally find my Silverstone Extremes fine for road use if they were quieter and didn't wear so quickly. Handling has never been an issue, even on very wet roads; so I can concieve Radial Swampers as a sensible all rounder. I have a while to think anyway...

dazlin wrote:what size pro comp AT where you running?

35x12.5x15 but they come smaller too.

alien wrote:

SIM79 wrote:

Highway-Star wrote: I just dont like what manufactueres call "A/Ts" for use as an "A/T".

The AT and MT classes need to be changed.
I class an AT as tyres that perfroms well on road 50% and well offroad 50%e.g MTZs, MTR, STT, KM2.
I class an MT as tyres that ok for little bit of road 20% use and performs extremly well off road 80% e.g Creepy Crawler, Trepador, Extrem Trecker 2, krawler.

I agree =)

Likewise.

Infact when I first got into Simex tyres we used to call them AT's because this was a tyre that could be used in quite literally all terains.

These days there is very little in it between HT and AT, then MT and I now just call the extreme tyres generically Bog tyres - despite probably not really being a true definition.

Highway-Star wrote:
Really?
I have had nothing to do with swampers, but have thus far shrugged them off as too unfriendly for large amounts of road use. I only ask because I have found that the TSL radial is about the only tyre that comes in a 31x9.5R15, a size I am interested in for road tyres for my Sierra, but basically no other manufacturers produce. So you do honestly think they would be usable as A/T tyres? (I currently use simex MTs which I find fine for A/Ts, as a point of comparison). I already have another set for offroad use, I just dont like what manufactueres call "A/Ts" for use as an "A/T".

I reckon you'll be ok with the radial swamper on road especially in a small size! I've run swampers as my main play tyre for over 4years but mine are the 33/12.5/15 bias TSL and they are average on road very noisey, skwerm around and flat spot badly. The radial wont flat spot so will be ok, bugga all sipping so wet weather roads they're average
When I'm lazy and dont change my tyre over to my roadies apart from above there ok not unbairable

My opinion on roadies is from many sets. I currently run the Maxxis 751 and are great at most I need for touring, easy trips, sand etc but dont use them hardcore like the Swamper simply they wont take it.
I'll never touch BFG's as their new tyres all have the rim protector and every time I went off road and dropped a bit of air out, the rim would catch the mud and crap and I got flat tyres every time I went out. (sold them within 2 months of buying the pos)
The biggest let down of the MTR's is their overall size as they are majorly undersized (as is the Claw) and both get very noisy when they start to wear down. this may not bother some people but when your mates are cruisin through the ruts running the same size tyres and your diffed out... not happy!!! I also ran the Toyo OPAT's and they performed great as a roady but never did and hard stuff on them, only sold them as wanted 33 otherwise would still have them now!

Good luck in your choice. Not one tyre suits everyones needs so happy hunting! I have what works for me that's all that matters

SIM79 wrote:

Highway-Star wrote: I just dont like what manufactueres call "A/Ts" for use as an "A/T".

The AT and MT classes need to be changed.
I class an AT as tyres that perfroms well on road 50% and well offroad 50%e.g MTZs, MTR, STT, KM2.
I class an MT as tyres that ok for little bit of road 20% use and performs extremly well off road 80% e.g Creepy Crawler, Trepador, Extrem Trecker 2, krawler.

x boggedteenbillion.

ATs are quite over rated and wouldnt get you out of any typical 4x4 situation except corrugation etc.

k3lst wrote:ATs are quite over rated and wouldnt get you out of any typical 4x4 situation except corrugation etc.

Again, that depends on what you call offroading.
Old farts travelling the simpson and shit, AT's are perfect for "ALL TERRAIN" types they encounter. So, they are anything but over rated, when you open your eyes to all forms of the hobby.

YMMV

bogged wrote:

k3lst wrote:ATs are quite over rated and wouldnt get you out of any typical 4x4 situation except corrugation etc.

Again, that depends on what you call offroading.
Old farts travelling the simpson and shit, AT's are perfect for "ALL TERRAIN" types they encounter. So, they are anything but over rated, when you open your eyes to all forms of the hobby.

YMMV

yup thats exactly what i mean by saying corrugation etc