Outer Limits 4x4 Board

smithie wrote: You could also try a UMP Airbox. I dont have any personal experience but they are used by desert racers. Someone on here should be able to comment. They also take K&N filters which is an advantage to some people.
http://www.uniquemetalproducts.com/

My understanding is that the UMP box is basically just an alloy version of a Donaldson Cyclopac.

If you don't need the super light weight of the alloy UMP box, a cyslopac will do the same job for a lot less $$$.

Steve.

All they guys running pod filters and K&Ns. You are far braver than me!

You may want to have a look at this:
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=17362

And this:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-cha ... nally.html

Knew you'd respond eventually

I kept biting by tongue thinking "leave it for Ben.... leave it for Ben"

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:Knew you'd respond eventually

I kept biting by tongue thinking "leave it for Ben.... leave it for Ben"

Steve.

All help would be appreciated Steve. It gets lonely being the only voice of sanity in the dark...

EDIT - FYI...

Filter companies usually have a seperate R&D/design/testing division for "off-highway" (offroad) vehicles (tractors, earthmoving, mining, etc...) - even though the same engine may be fitted to both an on-road and offroad vehicle.

(most 4x4 vehicles are specced with "on-road" filters, however utility vehicles such as cruisers, patrols, defenders often come with "off-highway" spec filters).

This will hopefully give you some idea how critical air filtration is for offroad vehicles (if you want the engines to last).

coxy321 wrote: What do they use to seal the two surfaces up in those boxes? Is it a big o-ring type seal, or is it just the two square surfaces that make the good seal?

Do they have a CFM/HP/engine size rating for their stuff? (website has no info).

the filter has its own rubber moulded seal, the upper and lower flanges are cnc machined with a recess thats thinner than seal, providing crush/seal when flanges are bolted together, the filter element is out of a 7.3L turbo diesel, as a rule of thumb they only have a couple of inches of restriction at 180 kw, as with any filtration, its always a comprimise between flow,physical size and microns of filtration....i've fitted these filters with a full 4" intake onto heavily modded TD42's , after a period of time to assess, customers have reported improved fuel economy, performance and lower egt's

tomahawkracefab wrote:

coxy321 wrote: What do they use to seal the two surfaces up in those boxes? Is it a big o-ring type seal, or is it just the two square surfaces that make the good seal?

Do they have a CFM/HP/engine size rating for their stuff? (website has no info).

the filter has its own rubber moulded seal, the upper and lower flanges are cnc machined with a recess thats thinner than seal, providing crush/seal when flanges are bolted together, the filter element is out of a 7.3L turbo diesel, as a rule of thumb they only have a couple of inches of restriction at 180 kw, as with any filtration, its always a comprimise between flow,physical size and microns of filtration....i've fitted these filters with a full 4" intake onto heavily modded TD42's , after a period of time to assess, customers have reported improved fuel economy, performance and lower egt's

That's a brilliant looking job, how much would something like that (air box only) cost the average punter.

Cheers

tomahawkracefab wrote:........
the filter element is out of a 7.3L turbo diesel, as a rule of thumb they only have a couple of inches of restriction at 180 kw,.....

AWESOME

ISUZUROVER wrote:All they guys running pod filters and K&Ns. You are far braver than me!

You may want to have a look at this:
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=17362

And this:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-cha ... nally.html

Ben, great, concise, to the point tech. This thread needs to be placed in the bible/faq i think assuming it can be kept spam free.

tomahawkracefab wrote:

coxy321 wrote: What do they use to seal the two surfaces up in those boxes? Is it a big o-ring type seal, or is it just the two square surfaces that make the good seal?

Do they have a CFM/HP/engine size rating for their stuff? (website has no info).

the filter has its own rubber moulded seal, the upper and lower flanges are cnc machined with a recess thats thinner than seal, providing crush/seal when flanges are bolted together, the filter element is out of a 7.3L turbo diesel, as a rule of thumb they only have a couple of inches of restriction at 180 kw, as with any filtration, its always a comprimise between flow,physical size and microns of filtration....i've fitted these filters with a full 4" intake onto heavily modded TD42's , after a period of time to assess, customers have reported improved fuel economy, performance and lower egt's

do one of these for a GQ? im assuming over flow bottle would need shifting...
how much?

cheers, andy

tomahawkracefab wrote:they only have a couple of inches of restriction at 180 kw,




as with any filtration, its always a comprimise between flow,physical size and microns of filtration...

Nice filter chamber. However the restriction across the filter is usually insignificant compared to the restriction through the intake piping. Swapping that ribbed connector for a straight one would improve things.

As you can see from this graph, filters aren't sieves, so micron ratings make no sense - especially for air filters.

In case anyone is having trouble with that graph, it's showing that cats fit through K&N.

Steve.

i have to up grade my air intake system and this thread has come at the right time, i see a lot of people have run custom air boxs ? is that come down to size and location, or some other reason, very intreasting reading on the air filters etc, may have turned me off that idea, is thier a calculation method or system in knowing what size piping to run as minium or does this just come down to bigger = better,

thanks rob

75 cruser wrote:i have to up grade my air intake system and this thread has come at the right time, i see a lot of people have run custom air boxs ? is that come down to size and location, or some other reason, very intreasting reading on the air filters etc, may have turned me off that idea, is thier a calculation method or system in knowing what size piping to run as minium or does this just come down to bigger = better,

thanks rob

Generally the biggest you can fit will be best. If you fit a correctly sized airbox (e.g. donaldson/mann+hummel/fleetgard) it will generally come with inlets/outlets of the appropriate size for that filter.

For a 4ish Litre diesel, 3" should be the minimum size.

Gwagensteve wrote:In case anyone is having trouble with that graph, it's showing that cats fit through K&N.

Steve.

and the dogs can usualy follow them thru

ISUZUROVER wrote:

75 cruser wrote:i have to up grade my air intake system and this thread has come at the right time, i see a lot of people have run custom air boxs ? is that come down to size and location, or some other reason, very intreasting reading on the air filters etc, may have turned me off that idea, is thier a calculation method or system in knowing what size piping to run as minium or does this just come down to bigger = better,

thanks rob

Generally the biggest you can fit will be best. If you fit a factory airbox it will generally come with inlets/outlets of the appropriate size for that filter.

For a 4ish Litre diesel, 3" should be the minimum size.

im looking at fitting it to a commodore 5l in a 75 series landcruiser, the throdle body inlett on the engine is a 80mm internal measurement, so i was looking at keeping that size to the air box, then going for 3 inch or 4 inch on the other side of the air box, any thoughts or seggestions

rob

i used a filter box from a 89 3.9l v8 range rover for my 308.
was much better than what i had but if i had more room i would have used a donaldson or made one...

ISUZUROVER wrote:All they guys running pod filters and K&Ns. You are far braver than me!

You may want to have a look at this:
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=17362

And this:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-cha ... nally.html

Why are you saying the K&N filters are crap when the first graph clearly shows they have a much lower pressure drop which means more air passes through the filter, they are far and away flowing more air than the Donaldson filter.

The second graph is showing they are letting 2-3mm particles but that is the trade off for a higher flowing filter.

The best pod filter test I've seen have been in the fast 4's mag they actually use the filter for a week and then test the filter from brand new.

The best 1 out of 20 filters was a $30-$40 pod filter (I can't remember the brand it's one I've never seen or heard of before) it would have flowed more than the K&N filters in that forum test and still stopped practicals 1-2mm in size quite surprising really, the HKS pod filters are a complete waste of money, K&N filters came mid to last in the test.

anyway not a dig just a question.

zagan wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:All they guys running pod filters and K&Ns. You are far braver than me!

You may want to have a look at this:
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=17362

And this:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-cha ... nally.html

Why are you saying the K&N filters are crap when the first graph clearly shows they have a much lower pressure drop which means more air passes through the filter, they are far and away flowing more air than the Donaldson filter.

The second graph is showing they are letting 2-3mm particles but that is the trade off for a higher flowing filter.

The best pod filter test I've seen have been in the fast 4's mag they actually use the filter for a week and then test the filter from brand new.

The best 1 out of 20 filters was a $30-$40 pod filter (I can't remember the brand it's one I've never seen or heard of before) it would have flowed more than the K&N filters in that forum test and still stopped practicals 1-2mm in size quite surprising really, the HKS pod filters are a complete waste of money, K&N filters came mid to last in the test.

anyway not a dig just a question.

you dont actually mean mm right? read it again.

zagan wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:All they guys running pod filters and K&Ns. You are far braver than me!

You may want to have a look at this:
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=17362

And this:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-cha ... nally.html

Why are you saying the K&N filters are crap when the first graph clearly shows they have a much lower pressure drop which means more air passes through the filter, they are far and away flowing more air than the Donaldson filter.

The second graph is showing they are letting 2-3mm particles but that is the trade off for a higher flowing filter.

The best pod filter test I've seen have been in the fast 4's mag they actually use the filter for a week and then test the filter from brand new.

The best 1 out of 20 filters was a $30-$40 pod filter (I can't remember the brand it's one I've never seen or heard of before) it would have flowed more than the K&N filters in that forum test and still stopped practicals 1-2mm in size quite surprising really, the HKS pod filters are a complete waste of money, K&N filters came mid to last in the test.

anyway not a dig just a question.

Because when it comes to FILTERING dirt from the air, K&N is crap.
I'd rather have less clean air then more dirty air. That said, with the right sized filter you can have both, more of it and it being cleaner.

having a filter that has high air flow is fine if your always on the tarmac, but as a 4wder who is often in dusty conditions, i will never use a K&N or simmiler filter because they just let too much crap thru.

basically the K&N filters the smaller particles a lot worse than the others.

you have to remember that a petrol motor flows a lot smaller average amount of air as it spends most of the time at part throttle with the throttle limiting the air flow.
with diesels the average air flow is very high. they consume a lot more air and pick up a lot more dust.
also restriction is more of a problem on a diesel. partly blocked filter effects a diesel almost all the time, while on a petrol it won't effect it until you use full throttle.

an older diesel is not going to worry about a bit of extra dust, its a bit more wear and dirties the oil quicker. however modern diesels have a few sensors, mainly the map sensor. which doesn't like being coated with dust. add in that it runs all fueling, EGR and turbo control, maf failure or even just incorrect reading due to the dust can cause major problems.
i would be using the best filtering filter you could get.

zagan wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:All they guys running pod filters and K&Ns. You are far braver than me!

You may want to have a look at this:
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=17362

And this:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-cha ... nally.html

Why are you saying the K&N filters are crap when the first graph clearly shows they have a much lower pressure drop which means more air passes through the filter, they are far and away flowing more air than the Donaldson filter.

The second graph is showing they are letting 2-3mm particles but that is the trade off for a higher flowing filter.

The best pod filter test I've seen have been in the fast 4's mag they actually use the filter for a week and then test the filter from brand new.

The best 1 out of 20 filters was a $30-$40 pod filter (I can't remember the brand it's one I've never seen or heard of before) it would have flowed more than the K&N filters in that forum test and still stopped practicals 1-2mm in size quite surprising really, the HKS pod filters are a complete waste of money, K&N filters came mid to last in the test.

anyway not a dig just a question.

The pressure drop across a (correctly sized) filter is usually insignificant compared to the pressure drop across the whole intake system. So sure, the K&N has less pressure drop, but the overall difference is 1/5th of bugger all.

Anyone can make a free flowing filter - have a look at a K&N - you can see daylight through it - no surprises it has a low pressure drop. Making one that has decent filtration efficiency though is another matter. Notice the curves for the K&N don't go to 100% like the theoretical curves. I have seen extreme cases (F1 engines) where sand particles get through.

Filtration is critical in offroad vehicles. I personally wouldn't care about a 0.1% power increase in exchange for a premature engine rebuild.

People who do regular oil analysis have found that silica levels and wear metal levels both shoot up when running a K&N (compared to an OEM filter).

75 cruser wrote:
im looking at fitting it to a commodore 5l in a 75 series landcruiser, the throdle body inlett on the engine is a 80mm internal measurement, so i was looking at keeping that size to the air box, then going for 3 inch or 4 inch on the other side of the air box, any thoughts or seggestions

rob

I would run the same or larger as the TB diameter. Keep the ducting as short as possible, as straight as possible, with large radius curves and avoid corrugated hoses.

I've been running Pod & Barrel tube filters for years, offroad, boat racing & drag cars and not a problem.
If you constantly check & clean everything then you stay on top of any problems that could happen, I check my airbox, filter & snorkel tubes every 2 weeks(even run rags up the tubing to see if its dirty). I have also run a flat filter type airbox but I had trouble keeping it sealed at the corners of the filter also I noted with this setup the motor didn't seem as lively as when I had a barrel filter setup.

have an opsion for u l have a 4.2 tourbo disesil comp truck and use a xr 8 round air cleaner that lets the truck realy breath and good on filters in dust

team efs wrote:have an opsion for u l have a 4.2 tourbo disesil comp truck and use a xr 8 round air cleaner that lets the truck realy breath and good on filters in dust

failed English at high school?

HG wrote:I've been running Pod & Barrel tube filters for years, offroad, boat racing & drag cars and not a problem.
If you constantly check & clean everything then you stay on top of any problems that could happen, I check my airbox, filter & snorkel tubes every 2 weeks(even run rags up the tubing to see if its dirty). I have also run a flat filter type airbox but I had trouble keeping it sealed at the corners of the filter also I noted with this setup the motor didn't seem as lively as when I had a barrel filter setup.

People always bring these sort of examples up. In drag cars, race cars, race boats, motorbikes, the engine lasts for such a short time that you could probably run any filter you want and it probably wouldn't make a difference.

On a related note, if you check/change/clean your filter too often, you will get MORE dust in your engine. Most people change their air filters far too often.

how often would you suggest blowing them out? in dusty conditions
and highway conditions?
and how often to replace them?

love ke70 wrote:how often would you suggest blowing them out? in dusty conditions
and highway conditions?
and how often to replace them?

Blowing out cellulose (paper) filters is BAD - b ecause it is easy to create pinholes in them by doing this - and also - it makes them WORSE as filters.

A new/clean filter is MUCH WORSE than a dusty filter for removing dust.

The BEST METHOD, is to fit a pressure indicator - like these:
http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cgi-b ... gories.jsp



Then ONLY change or service the filter element when this tells you to. You will save money AND have cleaner air in your engine.

hey guys, i am looking into buildin a airboxl but dont wanna spend to much.. i no there is stainless steal but was thinkin is there anything i can line 3mm steel with to reflect some heat? since easier and cheaper to make out of, will be goin onto a snorkel