Outer Limits 4x4 Board

weeman wrote:Hey I like the concept of this yet im not convinced, not bagging the product its just that why are some of these turbo diesel trucks pulling over 170kw at the wheels and either running a generic front mount, or top mount air to air cooler.

I understand the fact the inlet temps have dropped considerably but without and fuel and boost (or the right setup) your may not really know the true capabilities of this setup.

I guess what I'm trying to say be interesting to compare your setup with an air to air setup on a truck that has modded pump, roller turbo, i.e all the bells and whistles.... As i know with mine my temps arent that hot and i havnt got a great deal of fuel i can up my fuel alot more and get another 15kws but my temps go up 50c.

It would be interesting, to have your kit bolted on and the trucks that were running 170kw being able to run 200kw and still have reduced temps....

cheers

James

I agree, here is the data for a 182 KW of power for my Laminova cooled 40

Pre and post temp



Pre and post MAP



My 40 in red v Marin's Mav in blue (Mav pre intercooler)



KW has nothing to do with how hard the intercooler is going to be worked but how much boost as well as the correct sizing of turbo but I understand what your saying in regards to the TD42T

Another point is heat transfer rates increase as temperature difference increase so I only expect these cores to improve their % as the PSI goes up.

I agree a real world test is the only true answer. Were working our way up the food chain.

I have 450kw @ 18psi BMW that's almost complete (waiting on the rest of the car) it's results will be interesting. Same 4 core bolt on unit were using for this build.





As for Air to air off road at low speeds once the intercooler is hot it is no longer an intercooler they need good air flow, circuit racing is the ideal environment for air to air I believe.

When Matt has mine ready we will have that info available. I can produce boost pressures up to 50 psi, inlet air temps of 200c. Thats when we will see the real effects of a good intercooler.

Dont forget that some of the better powered diesels may still reach high exhaust temps, it is just how long they can stay on full power for that is the difference.



Andy

Yeah I agree with above, will be interesting to see results on the above as there is alot of effort going into these inter cooler setups for only 100kw.

Some of the high powered diesel setups i have seen have gone to so much effort yet there power gains and reliability isn't there... Sometimes keeping things simple is more effective... But I would like to be proven wrong

weeman wrote:Yeah I agree with above, will be interesting to see results on the above as there is alot of effort going into these inter cooler setups for only 100kw.

Some of the high powered diesel setups i have seen have gone to so much effort yet there power gains and reliability isn't there... Sometimes keeping things simple is more effective... But I would like to be proven wrong

104kw is what we have achieved with no boost increase and no fuel pump mods. Simply denser air due to the intercooler meaning we can get more fuel in. We are looking at upping the boost on this turbo, and seeing what we can get with another 4 or so psi. It is still the standard DTS mitsubishi turbo. When money allows (like everybody, I also have other expenses) I will be getting a pump rebuilt, a turbo that can give me more boost and a new manifold to suit.

As you know, it all takes time and money, and my funding has slowed for a short while after paying for all this. Maybe if we get our rudd government bonus it will happen a little quicker

marin

YES all buy our intercoolers and save the economy

matt.mcinnes wrote:YES all buy our intercoolers and save the economy

Now if you can just get govt. funding or a grant you're in clover as they say....

RED60 wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:YES all buy our intercoolers and save the economy

Now if you can just get govt. funding or a grant you're in clover as they say....

I'm sure there must be something in environment budget for global intercooling

matt.mcinnes wrote:

RED60 wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:YES all buy our intercoolers and save the economy

Now if you can just get govt. funding or a grant you're in clover as they say....

I'm sure there must be something in environment budget for global intercooling

No kidding, there are significant tax rebates for R&D and if you guys haven't looked at this, you might want to get your accountant to.

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/Innovatio ... Sheet.aspx

You might need to go back and get some documentation in order but the tax break is pretty substantial relative to the spend if you're eligible.

chimpboy wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

RED60 wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:YES all buy our intercoolers and save the economy

Now if you can just get govt. funding or a grant you're in clover as they say....

I'm sure there must be something in environment budget for global intercooling

No kidding, there are significant tax rebates for R&D and if you guys haven't looked at this, you might want to get your accountant to.

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/Innovatio ... Sheet.aspx

You might need to go back and get some documentation in order but the tax break is pretty substantial relative to the spend if you're eligible.

Tks for that.

matt.mcinnes wrote:As for Air to air off road at low speeds once the intercooler is hot it is no longer an intercooler they need good air flow, circuit racing is the ideal environment for air to air I believe.

your jacket water system uses the same ambient air speeds as an air to air for cooling?....imo jacket water is just an expensive way to move heat from the intake manifold to a heat exchanger, where your using not even .2 kw fans to move air through the heat exchanger at low speeds...oem's abandoned jacket water 20 yrs ago and went air to air...how many kw's of energy can you pull of the crank to run a fan? a lot more than .2 kw , an optimised crank driven fan with clutch/temp engagement, and careful attention to fan shrouding will provide greater cooling-air flow at low speeds and prove air to air to be far more efficient at cooling the intake charge.....

tomahawkracefab wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:As for Air to air off road at low speeds once the intercooler is hot it is no longer an intercooler they need good air flow, circuit racing is the ideal environment for air to air I believe.

your jacket water system uses the same ambient air speeds as an air to air for cooling?....imo jacket water is just an expensive way to move heat from the intake manifold to a heat exchanger, where your using not even .2 kw fans to move air through the heat exchanger at low speeds...oem's abandoned jacket water 20 yrs ago and went air to air...how many kw's of energy can you pull of the crank to run a fan? a lot more than .2 kw , an optimised crank driven fan with clutch/temp engagement, and careful attention to fan shrouding will provide greater cooling-air flow at low speeds and prove air to air to be far more efficient at cooling the intake charge.....

OEM abandoned this more due to cost I belive, water to air is much fast at transferring heat, If air was so good why do 99% of cars use water to cool engines. TRD's latest HiLux is A-2-W. Though their intercooler sucks

Also you have more lag due to the volume your turbo has to fill. I agree if you incorporate A-2-A tightly then you will gain air flow at low speed when the clutch fan kicks in but again no way you can retain the factory look and grill. Which for us was an important goal.

benz amg c 36 supercharged v6 run water to air cooler. they had a problem that the water pumps didnt move enough volume. resulting in increased charge temps and engine management cutting boost. good fun testing for it in passenger seat watching laptop whilst senior tech trying to get intake temps up

tomahawkracefab wrote: your jacket water system uses the same ambient air speeds as an air to air for cooling?....imo jacket water is just an expensive way to move heat from the intake manifold to a heat exchanger, where your using not even .2 kw fans to move air through the heat exchanger at low speeds...oem's abandoned jacket water 20 yrs ago and went air to air...how many kw's of energy can you pull of the crank to run a fan? a lot more than .2 kw , an optimised crank driven fan with clutch/temp engagement, and careful attention to fan shrouding will provide greater cooling-air flow at low speeds and prove air to air to be far more efficient at cooling the intake charge.....

Anthony, "proper shrouding" and therein lies the problem of every front mount I've ever seen. Sure the shrouding of the fan to the radiator from the rear may be good but in slow speed they pull 3/5ths of f@ck all air through the intercooler because the the intercoolers are never sealed around their outer edges so that the air MUST pass through the intercooler on the way to the radiator. (at slow speed)
It's simply a case of the air taking the easiest path which is usually around the intercooler rather than through the core.
At least with our Laminova's we dictate that the air must pass through the intercooler heat exchanger by use of the pusher fans.
Regards Andrew.

hurry up with the coolers. hanging out to see a price for them. Mark at Diesel tec tells me they are the bomb and to wait and see wat they are worth before doing something to my GU.

i think u need to start workin 24/7 on them

GU-ish wrote:hurry up with the coolers. hanging out to see a price for them. Mark at Diesel tec tells me they are the bomb and to wait and see wat they are worth before doing something to my GU.

I think u need to start workin 24/7 on them

I dropped the drawing in for the flange at the engineers on Thursday they will be ready this Friday for mounting the intercoolers to the stock intake. Just having a pair made to start. Once we have these we can start to mock the intercooler up ready to weld.
Also the new end plates for this design will be ordered Monday. The original ones shown in the 1st post are 84mm in hight, the new version is 72.4mm. This reduces the hight a little and gives more bonnet clearance as we refine the design.
So by Friday of this week I should have all the components ready for fabrication.

matt.mcinnes wrote:

jet-6 wrote:The question on everyones lips, when will you make these available for sale?

If all goes to plan 6 to 8 weeks will be nice but this depends on Busman a little so maybe longer, were not in a rush, I would like to get this one up and running and tested first. We will also have a good idea of the fabrication cost too for a final price.

I was considering doing a small run of maybe 10 units if the demand is their, this way we should be able to bring the costs down a little even with a small run. I'm not sure, their seems to be a lot of interest but the cost of these units may make some think twice even with the gains to be had.

If your serious post up I have white board with a few names down already, Busman was at the top of the GQ list

Ill put my hand up, if this is going to be a direct bolt on kit i say go for it!

Cant wait to see the final and the costing

jet-6 wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

jet-6 wrote:The question on everyones lips, when will you make these available for sale?

If all goes to plan 6 to 8 weeks will be nice but this depends on Busman a little so maybe longer, were not in a rush, I would like to get this one up and running and tested first. We will also have a good idea of the fabrication cost too for a final price.

I was considering doing a small run of maybe 10 units if the demand is their, this way we should be able to bring the costs down a little even with a small run. I'm not sure, their seems to be a lot of interest but the cost of these units may make some think twice even with the gains to be had.

If your serious post up I have white board with a few names down already, Busman was at the top of the GQ list

Ill put my hand up, if this is going to be a direct bolt on kit i say go for it!

Cant wait to see the final and the costing

Your on the white board

chimpboy wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

RED60 wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:YES all buy our intercoolers and save the economy

Now if you can just get govt. funding or a grant you're in clover as they say....

I'm sure there must be something in environment budget for global intercooling

No kidding, there are significant tax rebates for R&D and if you guys haven't looked at this, you might want to get your accountant to.

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/Innovatio ... Sheet.aspx

You might need to go back and get some documentation in order but the tax break is pretty substantial relative to the spend if you're eligible.

What he said. Also - any R&D expenditure through a university is 100% tax deductable (hint, hint...)

All this reminds me - need to take some pics...

hello again, hope im on the GQ/stupid circuit car white board, the way my GQ is going at the moment, i might be keen on one of the intergrated into the manifold ones, if you are still considering doing them as a generic? like this idea better as you get a better spread between the cylinders, which will be good for me as im running the gas injection.

when that BMW is done, i wanna see it sit on the dyno at peak power for 5 minutes and see what the intake temps do, im sure the owner wont mind
id do it with my car, but thats along way off being at that point, and going backwards

keep up the good work guys

cheers, andy

http://tinyurl.com/bhvwc5

Are these the same cores?
Specifications:
Length of tube: 392mm or 15.43 inches
diameter: 39.5mm or 1.56 inches
Weight: 530g or 1.2 lbs.

bogged wrote:http://tinyurl.com/bhvwc5

Are these the same cores?
Specifications:
Length of tube: 392mm or 15.43 inches
diameter: 39.5mm or 1.56 inches
Weight: 530g or 1.2 lbs.

YES

Or you can get them from me for $100Aus each including postage

Picked up 10 new end plates today slim line, these are 12mm narrower than the first and about 3mm shorter. so less issues with bonnet clearance.




Also picked the 2 prototype flanges up to make to the intercooler for the bolt on version.

matt.mcinnes wrote:

Honestly, I don't even care if these things work well, I just love looking at the shiny metal stuff you're making

Mmmmmm

matt.mcinnes wrote:

bogged wrote:http://tinyurl.com/bhvwc5

Are these the same cores?
Specifications:
Length of tube: 392mm or 15.43 inches
diameter: 39.5mm or 1.56 inches
Weight: 530g or 1.2 lbs.

YES

Or you can get them from me for $100Aus each including postage

waiting to see how Johns 2 core one goes first
Just planning

bogged wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

bogged wrote:http://tinyurl.com/bhvwc5

Are these the same cores?
Specifications:
Length of tube: 392mm or 15.43 inches
diameter: 39.5mm or 1.56 inches
Weight: 530g or 1.2 lbs.

YES

Or you can get them from me for $100Aus each including postage

waiting to see how Johns 2 core one goes first
Just planning

I have drawings for 2 and 3 core versions as well as 5,7,8 and 12

matt.mcinnes wrote:I have drawings for 2 and 3 core versions as well as 5,7,8 and 12

I mean on the car If it works well, he has 2 spares

I have been asked to replace this with one of ours.



1000hp BMW in the USA

The mock end plates are in for it as were making a model first to check space as the USA is a long way away. 7 Cores

Well me and Andrew caught up on Sat morning and had a very productive morning. The new flange does not work but we now have a soloution. The hight and size is correct but what I had palnned below makes it near impossible to get 2 of the bolts back in







So now for Mark II.

Also finalized the assembly of Dzltec's monster and have elected to go the this route. Supporting it the same way we did with Marin's off the engine block underneath.