Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Some of these issues I have been tossing up also the last couple of days although I do not have the remote issue to deal with. My 80 has been leaking since I got it and as I don't use it much I've just been topping it up. I checked it out on the weekend and there seemed to be play in the flange/pinion and there is heaps of oil sprayed out. Pulled the flange out which has a wear groove. Alos noticed the the nut had be restaked once before almost 80 degrees around. Pulled the front bearing and it is pitted all over. The cup is pitted lightly all the way round with a big patch which was probably on the bottom and from water maybe. All the rollers are pitted all the way around. So after talking to a few people who confirmed pretty much what I was thinking it would appear that if that bearing is so bad then the rest will most likely be as well. So instead of tossing up putting a new spacer in and the bearing and seal I'm now looking at a full rebuild and hoping they don't find the gears stuffed.

Been quoted $310 in labour to do the rebuild with me dropping the centre out and I'm supplying the bearing/seal kit as I'm pallie with the owner of the bearing shop. Bearing kit will be somewhere between $150 and $200. Was quoted by a worker there $160 for the kit, when I dropped in and spoke to the owner it became apparent the diff locked (Sahara) kit is different and about $50 dearer but he stated his cost on it is $150 so not sure what my final price will be. Alos noted there are only 2 diff locked kits in the country at present so he has to get it in from South Aus.

So assuming my gears are OK I'm looking at a rebuild at about $5-600. Does this seem about right and is it likely the gears are OK or stuffed.

Toyota doesn't miss you though not that that's anything new. The wanted $90 I think for the front bearing and $150 for the rear one. Also $20 for the seal. Whereas I can get the whole kit which includes carrier beearings etc for under $200. My guy told me his cost on the front bearing is $20something + GST and the seal costs him $4 + GST. Also noted Terrain Tamer didn't appear that good at $265 unless that includes a new flange, not sure.

My guy is also going to throw in a speedy sleeve and the correct liquid metal type product to fit it. He said many people just stick them on with locktite but that the seal will just cut through the sleeve in no time and leak is back the same. Apparently you need to use a metal based product like Devcon and others to fill the gap underneath and to provide heat conduction to give the sleeve maximum life.

Hopefully I am going the right way. I tossed up the idea of a second hand centre but I'm not sure if anything else with the locking centre is different which would stop me using a standard diff centre. Also if the replacement centres bearings are not up to scratch then the rebuild cost is there also.

How much play should there be in the pinion/flange anyway and in what direction. I noticed with mine there was a small amount of play if you held it in tight but I could also turn the flange anticlockwise about 11mm from a mark on the housing and the play got worse at this point. How bad does this sound and how much movement should a good one have anyway.

Should be no movement in the pinion flange. none side/side or up/down.

As you've confirmed your bearings are toast. Previous owner probably did the seal and tightened the nut back up, but that ws only a temporary fix.

I had a 60 series diff fully rebuilt including relaping the R&P for $610 about a year ago (18 months maybe). That was using a genuine rebuild kit.

Sounds like yours is going to be almost the same, even though you should be getting the bearing kit cheaper, (aftermarket kit, and mates rates).

Shadow wrote:Should be no movement in the pinion flange. none side/side or up/down.

As you've confirmed your bearings are toast. Previous owner probably did the seal and tightened the nut back up, but that ws only a temporary fix.

I had a 60 series diff fully rebuilt including relaping the R&P for $610 about a year ago (18 months maybe). That was using a genuine rebuild kit.

Sounds like yours is going to be almost the same, even though you should be getting the bearing kit cheaper, (aftermarket kit, and mates rates).

I thought that was a good price? Wonder what the Toyota kit is worth if they are quoting $150 alone for a single bearing. If I do get the kit at cost then my overall should be about $460 which sounds better. Not sure why the carrier bearings of the locked diff are different and dearer.

The kit must be pinion seal, 2 pinion bearings, collapable spacer, 2 carrier bearings and gasket.

fester2au wrote:

Shadow wrote:Should be no movement in the pinion flange. none side/side or up/down.

As you've confirmed your bearings are toast. Previous owner probably did the seal and tightened the nut back up, but that ws only a temporary fix.

I had a 60 series diff fully rebuilt including relaping the R&P for $610 about a year ago (18 months maybe). That was using a genuine rebuild kit.

Sounds like yours is going to be almost the same, even though you should be getting the bearing kit cheaper, (aftermarket kit, and mates rates).

I thought that was a good price? Wonder what the Toyota kit is worth if they are quoting $150 alone for a single bearing. If I do get the kit at cost then my overall should be about $460 which sounds better. Not sure why the carrier bearings of the locked diff are different and dearer.

The kit must be pinion seal, 2 pinion bearings, collapable spacer, 2 carrier bearings and gasket.

And shims I think.

The big pinion bearing is always expensive in every diff, i think someone replaced a mog diff bearing and it was about $150 for the large pinion bearing aftermarket.

The factory locker has larger carrier bearings than the open or lsd. This is why the kit is more expensive.

So any idea if I can just put a good second hand unit in from a non locker diff if we find mine is totally trashed when I get it out.

fester2au wrote:So any idea if I can just put a good second hand unit in from a non locker diff if we find mine is totally trashed when I get it out.

Your's should be fine. Its very common for the pinion bearings to fail and its rarely very destructive unless they are driven for a while with significant play in the pinion, which would be very noisy.(especially when engine braking, ring gear then drives the pinion gear, the movement in the pinion makes the mesh very bad and makes em howl).

The worst case the gears wont mesh properly and will need to be lapped.

Your housing will take a normal or LSD centre(40/60/75/80), but one of your axles might be longer for the factory locker(5mm or so), so you might need to source a normal axle. I think your axle will still be ok for an open centre, but not for an ARB/LSD.

Hi Guys,

Just came across this thead, I originally looked at, and tightened the rear pinion nut on their diff when they visited Adelaide.

Everything looked fine re bearings, it looked like the collapsible spacer had worked loose a bit, and the pinion had movement in it that caused the old seal to leak.

We fitted the new seal tightened up the pinion nut up, about 1 flat more than before, and then put a small amount of preload on it, and they made it up to darwin with no diff noise via the oodnadatta / dalhousie andado, and all around the alice.

Yes we topped it up with oil.
Either one of two things has happened.

Nut has come loose again, Unlikely as it was locktited, and the nut peined over, but it can happen, or the spacer has collapsed further, as they can continue to do so. due to driving style/ conditions driven on/ condition of spacer etc.

Timm has not complained about diff noise, so I dont think the bearings are shot just yet, I had suggeted he try and tighten it upagain, and put a bit more torque on the nut than I did, (I didnt put alot of preload on it to start with, so a bit more now will help.)

I dont see why that wont get him back to the east coast on the black stuff, and if it does die, then disconnect the rear tail shaft, and run in 4x4, but I doubt this will happen.

Either way, trying to take the freeplay out iwth a nip up of the nut should be the first thing to try.

Trains

Ps, how did it go mate??

edited to add.

The spacing for the pinion to the crownwheel is set up via a solid spacer behind the rear bearing. Once this is set, you fit the collapsible spacer, do up nut to 196nm (read bloody tight), and measure the bearing drag, do up in 13nm stages till correct bearing drag/ preload is set.

The front bearing has quite a bit of available space to move within the housing and pinion shaft to allow for this setup of preload.

If there is large load on the diff, ie reversing up a steep slope, or driving harshly, this can cause the pressures of the teeth in the pinion/ crownwheel to physically crush the collapsible spacer further than the bearing preload setting, thus giving bearing slop etc.
One reason why most rock crawler buggies are set up with solid spacers.
they then break crownwheel, and pionion teeth .

So, even if the bearings are not in the best of condition, you can still tighten/ remove slack, and nip up the pinion nut and continue along and be fine.

When we tightend up the pinion nut, it could have been done up a bit tighter, but its always best to start on the low side, and see how it goes, thus ive advised Timm to tighten it up a bit more than we did last time, and he should be fine.

Trains

I'm driving with music on the last 1.000km So I never heard any noise. Now I listened for 60km and when I accelerate or when I move from the accelerator I hear sometimes a metalic noise which hasen't been there before.

All nuts have been ok, so none has come loosen. I tightened up the pinion nut a little bit (it's a 30mm not 32mm, fortunately my neighbour on the campground had one).

I topped up the Diff with oil (only 0,1l) and drove again for 60km. I still hear the noise sometimes and there is still a small bit of oil comming out the pinion shaft.

I'm not sure if I should try to drive to Cairns.

cocacola-light wrote:I'm driving with music on the last 1.000km So I never heard any noise. Now I listened for 60km and when I accelerate or when I move from the accelerator I hear sometimes a metalic noise which hasen't been there before.

All nuts have been ok, so none has come loosen. I tightened up the pinion nut a little bit (it's a 30mm not 32mm, fortunately my neighbour on the campground had one).

I topped up the Diff with oil (only 0,1l) and drove again for 60km. I still hear the noise sometimes and there is still a small bit of oil comming out the pinion shaft.

I'm not sure if I should try to drive to Cairns.

Hey Timm, sorry about the socket miss size, I apologise.
How much movement was in the pinion shaft before you tightened it, and how far did it take to take the slack out of it.

Was it 2-3mm movement when you moved the flange where the tailshaft is bolted to it?? or was it more?

There is some driveline slack in your vehicle, I heard it when it drove away that night, but nothing bad.
what your looking for here is a whine up at speed, above the tyres. wind noise, engine noise etc.

Where are you now?

I'm in Katherine.

Sorry trains, I'm not really able to describe the movement. But 2-3mm could be it. I could

I was able to turn it about one third turn.

The noise I hear now hasn't been there before. With my last travel mate we often drove without radio and I never heard it on the way to Darwin. It sounds a little bit like sharpen your knifes

Could some one off here with a 60 series rear diff freight one up to him?

Rather than paying full price off a wrecker in Katherine & just get the mechanic to fit it?

Do we know what ratio it is?

cocacola-light wrote:I'm in Katherine.

Sorry trains, I'm not really able to describe the movement. But 2-3mm could be it. I could

I was able to turn it about one third turn.

The noise I hear now hasn't been there before. With my last travel mate we often drove without radio and I never heard it on the way to Darwin. It sounds a little bit like sharpen your knifes

describe the noise, and when it occours.

Ie under load, or coast, or driving, does it get louder with speed, is it a clunk, or a whine.

If it was bearings, it would start to whine at 60ish, and be louder when accellerating, or backing off when it was loaded up by torque.

One third turn is ok, thats not that much, you would have seen from the past where it moved from and too.
Ive done up nuts that did up more than a full turn before and they were fine.

How far up did you tighten it once you took away the freeplay??

Lets try and make sure that if your going to spend money, you really need to, and not get ripped off.

T

I am just wondering if it might be an idea to head up to Darwin and find a mechanic there rather than going straight to Cairns now.

Darwin is much bigger than Katherine and should offer more options for the job. I'd be surprised if your diff couldn't at least last the 300km to Darwin.

Basically, a diff should not make noise. If it makes noise there's a problem, but diffs being diffs it could last a very long time before it matters. It's just that you'd rather find out in Darwin than on the road from Katherine to Cairns, which is one of the more remote highways to get stuck on.

Update: I didn't like to be stuck here and went to another mechanic outside the city. With all the knowledge I had (because of you), I explained the problem and what I want to be done.

They repaired the Diff. he pinion bearing was spinning in the housing and they also showed me all the parts. Some of them didn't look good at all. They put in a new (and bigger?) bearing kit and put everythinh togehter again. They coudln't find a new housing in this city and thereforre had to knurle it.

When they tryed to adjust the preload, they run in some problems. But don't ask me what. I payed finally $700:

$396 for 4 hours work
$170 for bearing and seal kit
$70 LSD Oil
$70 knurling, loctite, sealant

I guess it is way to much compared to some big city or if someone of you could had helped me. But I'm happy that the car is running again and I'm heading to Cairns tomorrow. Hope the Savannah Way will be a nice drive!

Thanks again to all your ideas and help! I guess I don't have internet the next days...

Cheers

cocacola-light wrote:Update: I didn't like to be stuck here and went to another mechanic outside the city. With all the knowledge I had (because of you), I explained the problem and what I want to be done.

They repaired the Diff. he pinion bearing was spinning in the housing and they also showed me all the parts. Some of them didn't look good at all. They put in a new (and bigger?) bearing kit and put everythinh togehter again. They coudln't find a new housing in this city and thereforre had to knurle it.

When they tryed to adjust the preload, they run in some problems. But don't ask me what. I payed finally $700:

$396 for 4 hours work
$170 for bearing and seal kit
$70 LSD Oil
$70 knurling, loctite, sealant

I guess it is way to much compared to some big city or if someone of you could had helped me. But I'm happy that the car is running again and I'm heading to Cairns tomorrow. Hope the Savannah Way will be a nice drive!

Thanks again to all your ideas and help! I guess I don't have internet the next days...

Cheers

Thats really not to bad considering what he did for you to get you out of trouble. As you know it could have been a lot more. I think you did well in the circumstances.

So they knurled the spot where the outer race presses in?