Outer Limits 4x4 Board

mike_nofx wrote:

mule75 wrote:

mike_nofx wrote:The way i see it is, i would never pay someone to do something i can do (eg oil, coolant, filters, tyre pressures, plugs, leads etc etc) which, lets face it you could train a monkey to do.

If its something more 'specialised', if you can call screwing in a pressure gauge specialised, and i dont own a gauge, for the money a mechanic charges (and im not debating wether its a fair price or not) i could probably buy the gauge and check my pressures 1000 times.

I will take a car in only if it needs something which i cannot do, legally or otherwise. Such as re-gas air-con, machine heads (Even then removing the head your self doesn't take a rocket scientist) or any other machining, anything computer related.

We're all on this board for one reason, we are vehicle enthusiasts. If we cant do a few simple checks, well....

Buy a workshop manual (or download) and some tools, and learn some skills for life. Then you can never complain about service costs.

Mike

i don't get my car serviced bcause i can't..... it's because while i'm working and making money in my trade i'm getting someone else to make money in their trade. why would you waste your own leisure time doing boring stuff like servicing cars or lose money by not working to save yourself a whole 50 bucks??

So some places charge only $50 labour for a whole service do they? where is this? My most recent service saved me an about $200-250 labour, and it took less that 4 hours.

Basic service - An oil change takes less than 15 mins labour with filter change (not including draining time) During oil draining you can check air filter, inspect hoses, check tyre pressures etc. All in one short afternoon.

Going by an earlier post, at $88 per hour labour - If the mech checks your tyre pressures, and correct pressures this may take him what, 5 mins?? 5 mins @ $88/hour is $7.33!

$7.33 to check your air pressure - Something you can do yourself for 5 mins next time you get fuel for.... wait for it... free!

As i mentioned earlier, we are auto enthusiasts! We're not here because we like pottery, or knitting, or tennis...

We wont put mechanics out of business if we change our own oil. As long as there is Doctors, lawyers, elderly, disabled, lazy and just plain stupid they will be in business.

Mike

you have a very misguided view of what a SERVICE is, and how long it takes to do properly.

I invite you to my work shop so you can do a proper service on any car i may have in at the time. If you can do it to my standard in the time you say it take, I WILL PAY FOR ALL OF YOUR FLIGHTS AND ACCOMMODATION, SPENDING MONEY AND GENERAL OUT OF POCKETS.
on top of that i will fly to your house and service your cars for free for the rest of your life.

brad-chevlux wrote:

mike_nofx wrote:

mule75 wrote:

mike_nofx wrote:The way i see it is, i would never pay someone to do something i can do (eg oil, coolant, filters, tyre pressures, plugs, leads etc etc) which, lets face it you could train a monkey to do.

If its something more 'specialised', if you can call screwing in a pressure gauge specialised, and i dont own a gauge, for the money a mechanic charges (and im not debating wether its a fair price or not) i could probably buy the gauge and check my pressures 1000 times.

I will take a car in only if it needs something which i cannot do, legally or otherwise. Such as re-gas air-con, machine heads (Even then removing the head your self doesn't take a rocket scientist) or any other machining, anything computer related.

We're all on this board for one reason, we are vehicle enthusiasts. If we cant do a few simple checks, well....

Buy a workshop manual (or download) and some tools, and learn some skills for life. Then you can never complain about service costs.

Mike

i don't get my car serviced bcause i can't..... it's because while i'm working and making money in my trade i'm getting someone else to make money in their trade. why would you waste your own leisure time doing boring stuff like servicing cars or lose money by not working to save yourself a whole 50 bucks??

So some places charge only $50 labour for a whole service do they? where is this? My most recent service saved me an about $200-250 labour, and it took less that 4 hours.

Basic service - An oil change takes less than 15 mins labour with filter change (not including draining time) During oil draining you can check air filter, inspect hoses, check tyre pressures etc. All in one short afternoon.

Going by an earlier post, at $88 per hour labour - If the mech checks your tyre pressures, and correct pressures this may take him what, 5 mins?? 5 mins @ $88/hour is $7.33!

$7.33 to check your air pressure - Something you can do yourself for 5 mins next time you get fuel for.... wait for it... free!

As i mentioned earlier, we are auto enthusiasts! We're not here because we like pottery, or knitting, or tennis...

We wont put mechanics out of business if we change our own oil. As long as there is Doctors, lawyers, elderly, disabled, lazy and just plain stupid they will be in business.

Mike

you have a very misguided view of what a SERVICE is, and how long it takes to do properly.

I invite you to my work shop so you can do a proper service on any car i may have in at the time. If you can do it to my standard in the time you say it take, I WILL PAY FOR ALL OF YOUR FLIGHTS AND ACCOMMODATION, SPENDING MONEY AND GENERAL OUT OF POCKETS.
on top of that i will fly to your house and service your cars for free for the rest of your life.

Your workshop may the the 1% of workshops that do a proper service.

But i can almost guarantee that the others will spend less than 2 hours doing a "proper service". Have you read most of the other forum members encounters with mechanics in this thread? the only ones who seem to be completely pleased with them is mechanics themselves.

Mike

I highly doubt only %1 of us are good and the right thing.

I also know of alot of mechanics that 'think' they are doing the right thing by the customer.

the biggest problem i have found is, lack of communication and lack of understanding.

and it's a two way street. Most mechanics are just that, they are not business minded at all and as such have no idea how to work with a customer, even though the quality of the mechanical work is first rate.


As a customer you need to make the mechanic aware of what you want.
simply asking for a service and leaving is not enough. There is no set trade wide standard that dictates what constitutes a service.
If you are unsure about anything ASK...

Your mechanic should explain exactly what he plans on doing provide an accurate (with in reason) estimate of cost and time and should inform of anything unexpected that is found during the work.

If both parties have a good understanding of the work to be done and the cost involved they will both be happy at the end of the job.

I learnt the hard way. I've worked for people that fall into both side of the argument.

But at the end of it all, the single biggest problem is when the customer come in expecting to be hard done by.
These customers are easy to spot.
They normally start the conversation by complaining about the previous mechanic.
They then go on to ask an exact price the job will cost.
They then argue when you point out that it is imposible to quote a repair befor the problem has been accuratly diagnosed.

After spending 30mins with them explaining why they will be charged for the time it take to diagnose the problem. they hand over the keys.

after finding the problem (that the 3 privious mechanics could not) you provide a an estimate. they then complain about the price and authorise you to fix it.

When the job is complete you call them to let them know the car is ready to be picked up, they then complain again at the price, at which point you inform them it is actually cheaper then the estimate they were given.

they come to pick the car up and complain again and demand to talk to the mechanic that did the work, 15mins later they leave.



For those that like to do there own work, go for it, but bagging out mechanic because you had a bad run with few of them doesn't help anyone. All it does is cause the problems listed above.




My good customers drop the car at 8am i do the work call them to let them know the work is done but i found a few items that need attention. they give me budget and ask that i repair the item in order of importance but to not to go over budget. they then come to pick the car up pay the bill spend 5mins having a chat and i'll see them again next time.


For the people that use a mechanic. Find one that does quality work, be friendly with them, make you you both understand what wanted and what going to be done and remember a little trust goes a long way.




End rant.

You wouldn't want to own a motorcycle then, my last service for Oil, Filter, Coolant and Brake Fluid cost me $450 including 1 hour of labor at $280 an hour.

if you complain about mechanics, the washing machine repair man came to my house and charged $100 to drive there and then pulled a $1 coin out of a pipe in 2 minutes and explained that it cost me an aditional $120 dollars min charge.I thanked him and he left. So your complaining about $350 dollars to repair a machine that has your family in it, and if brakes could kill them.To service a nissan patrol diesel takes about 2.5hours min plus if you find any more items requiring attention. oh ya the award rate for a mechanic is $511.00 net so you work out the hourly rate(40hours or more ). theres no double overtime ,theres no penalty rates ,and if the car comes back you gota fix it even if its something you didnt fix or the customers bitch and moan like old tarts because they know more than you apparently. Seriously you guys moanin have got to be kiddin yourselves, Ive seen your repairs you guys do and after ive fixed what youve done i then can usually fix what was wrong with the car in the first place

suzukiboy wrote:You wouldn't want to own a motorcycle then, my last service for Oil, Filter, Coolant and Brake Fluid cost me $450 including 1 hour of labor at $280 an hour.

I've owned many.

Easier than a car to service!

mike_nofx wrote:
I've owned many.

Easier than a car to service!

im a mechanic by trade and servicing a car is much easyer then servicing my bike.

all cars are different just like all bikes are i suppose

I find it quite depressing to see what people think of mechanics, we charge less than any other trade and have some of the highest overheads. They always manage to find some rogue in the media with which to tar us all with the same brush.
Most mechanics cost $35-$50 per hour to pay with super, workcover and alike, this equates to 40-60k, 60k being the upper end of the scale. The workshop is typically leased, has an office person, has multiple hoists, and a great number of general and often specialised tools. At $70 per hour your average workshop is breaking even when all running costs are considered.
A plumber or electrician will typically charge more per hour ($90-$120) with lower overheads. I operate a chassis dyno which costs in the vicinity of $150k, if I drove and excavator worth 150k I'd be earing over 100k a year and I earn nothing like it, but I enjoy what I do.
In most cases you get what you pay for, you can't attempt to service a 4x4 with any reliability in under 1.5 hours for a basic service. Test drive, put on hoist, check belts, brakes, suspension bushes, wheel bearings, air filter, lube unis, check for steering play, check the lights, check and adjust tyre pressures, check all levels and top up, replace engine oil and filter. That is a sample of what should be in a basic service should cover, it is a safety inspection and the mechanic should be able to provide a list of items that may require attention in the near or distant future. If you have a mechanic that charges $150 for a basic service including oil and filter don't complain if they don't check things properly, you are getting what you paid for, and in most cases you could do that yourself.

Joel

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:I find it quite depressing to see what people think of mechanics, we charge less than any other trade and have some of the highest overheads. They always manage to find some rogue in the media with which to tar us all with the same brush.
Most mechanics cost $35-$50 per hour to pay with super, workcover and alike, this equates to 40-60k, 60k being the upper end of the scale. The workshop is typically leased, has an office person, has multiple hoists, and a great number of general and often specialised tools. At $70 per hour your average workshop is breaking even when all running costs are considered.
A plumber or electrician will typically charge more per hour ($90-$120) with lower overheads. I operate a chassis dyno which costs in the vicinity of $150k, if I drove and excavator worth 150k I'd be earing over 100k a year and I earn nothing like it, but I enjoy what I do.
In most cases you get what you pay for, you can't attempt to service a 4x4 with any reliability in under 1.5 hours for a basic service. Test drive, put on hoist, check belts, brakes, suspension bushes, wheel bearings, air filter, lube unis, check for steering play, check the lights, check and adjust tyre pressures, check all levels and top up, replace engine oil and filter. That is a sample of what should be in a basic service should cover, it is a safety inspection and the mechanic should be able to provide a list of items that may require attention in the near or distant future. If you have a mechanic that charges $150 for a basic service including oil and filter don't complain if they don't check things properly, you are getting what you paid for, and in most cases you could do that yourself.

Joel

Joel

x2

Peter K
Redlands 4WD

Jacked wrote:

mike_nofx wrote:
I've owned many.

Easier than a car to service!

im a mechanic by trade and servicing a car is much easyer then servicing my bike.

all cars are different just like all bikes are i suppose

I've had plenty of dirtbikes, and couple old skool road bikes.

To service my 2 4b's i need to stand on a milk crate or lie on the ground, with the bikes i put them up on centrestand and i can SIT on the milk crate. Only 2 spark plugs and leads on my bikes, air filter just needs the seat popped up. Brake pads just need to be looked at to inspect, 4b needs 4 wheels removed. Plus dont have to stick 9L of oil into a bike.
You can strip a bike to a bare frame in an afternoon...

Mike

PGS 4WD wrote:I find it quite depressing to see what people think of mechanics, we charge less than any other trade and have some of the highest overheads. They always manage to find some rogue in the media with which to tar us all with the same brush.
Most mechanics cost $35-$50 per hour to pay with super, workcover and alike, this equates to 40-60k, 60k being the upper end of the scale. The workshop is typically leased, has an office person, has multiple hoists, and a great number of general and often specialised tools. At $70 per hour your average workshop is breaking even when all running costs are considered.
A plumber or electrician will typically charge more per hour ($90-$120) with lower overheads. I operate a chassis dyno which costs in the vicinity of $150k, if I drove and excavator worth 150k I'd be earing over 100k a year and I earn nothing like it, but I enjoy what I do.
In most cases you get what you pay for, you can't attempt to service a 4x4 with any reliability in under 1.5 hours for a basic service. Test drive, put on hoist, check belts, brakes, suspension bushes, wheel bearings, air filter, lube unis, check for steering play, check the lights, check and adjust tyre pressures, check all levels and top up, replace engine oil and filter. That is a sample of what should be in a basic service should cover, it is a safety inspection and the mechanic should be able to provide a list of items that may require attention in the near or distant future. If you have a mechanic that charges $150 for a basic service including oil and filter don't complain if they don't check things properly, you are getting what you paid for, and in most cases you could do that yourself.

Joel

Joel

Very valid points. I respect what you are saying, and several of my friends are very good mechanics. I feel the public perception is tainted by the few, and the dealer.

My previous points refered to only dealer's.

I also know of some dealer mechanics that have been instructed to wipe filters clean if the oil was clean, don't worry about greasing cv's until the 2nd major, log book (yet charge for it on the first major) etc.

I think in queensland it is very sad (in most NOT all cases) that you do not need a trade qualification to practice as a mechanic - it simply works to undermine those that actually have qualifications. Further living with 3 girls it is clear to me that they are targeted for their ignorance - as any trade, profession or other would

I think dealer mechanics are often the arse end of the industry, but tend to shape people's perceptions most. Privately owned and operated mechanic's workshops tend to have a bit more pride in their work. I say that not through using them (never had a service done by others) but by my Dad's service history of a new Holden Caprice, followed by a new Ford Fairmont Ghia, and compared with my bro-in-law who used to own and run his own workshop.

The Holden had soooo many problems, and on one instance they needed to service the transmission. Had to drop the pan to do a proper job of it. Being a bit sus of their previous work, Dad backed one of the pan bolts off slightly and scribed its position. Got the car back with a $600 bill and the bolt hadn't been touched. Service manager said it was an 'oversight' that had lead to the charge being applied and the service not being correctly completed.

The Ford ended up having to go in to a Melbourne dealership when Dad was over there at one stage because none of the Adelaide dealerships could work out why at random intervals the seats, mirrors, radio and aircon would all change to another user position ... while you were driving Went in at least half a dozen times and they couldn't find the problem. Melbourne techs fixed it in half an hour with a new something-or-other module.

My bro-in-law on the other hand was a good to very good mechanic, spent the time to give vehicles a thorough going over, and developed a dedicated regular clientelle who appreciated the extra mile he would go to help them out.

mavzilla wrote: oh ya the award rate for a mechanic is $511.00 net

i wouldn't even get out of bed in the morning for that. My old apprentice got paid more.

Interesting read. Joel and Brad I think have given accurate descriptions. Yes our overheads are high. Yes it's hard and costly to keep up to date with repair information and diagnostic equipment to work on vehicles. It really is becoming a very specialist repair industry.

The easier part is general servicing, but you can also get into trouble with that if you don"t have information on which oil grades to use on vehicles. We use 5 different oil types just for engines to service the diesel vehicles that come through our door.

I think people who have stayed in business for quite a while, have repeat customers and have word of mouth recommendations are doing the right thing. We can also make mistakes or don't ask enough questions when trying to sort a problem out. The honest ones will be man enough to say that to a customers face.

But we shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush. It is just unfair.


Andy

mike_nofx

true. but i can do a major service on a commonwhore (on a hoist) in about an hour.

i will be fucked if i can work out how to adjust the power valves and carbys CORRECTLY on my aprilia. i keep trying and trying and its just never quite right

Jacked wrote:mike_nofx

true. but i can do a major service on a commonwhore (on a hoist) in about an hour.

that would depend on what you class as a 'major' service.