Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Gwagensteve wrote:

SWBMQCraig wrote:I just spoke with an engineer in bayswater that was talking about NCOP14 being legislation in a couple of weeks.. I think that cars that are currently engineered for lift/tyres will become very valuable! because no-one else will be able to do it from now onwards..

Craig

Maybe, but for us in Victoria, I don't think there's really that much of a change. Maybe some patrols that could have been engineered on 35's will now be certed on 34's.

Maybe some cars will be a but lower... probably not a bad thing IMHO.

What else is different?

I"m happy to agree that NSW are going to have a big fall. Having seen some NSW certed cars they make me laugh.

Steve.

Mmmm sum pretty iffy stuff

Ok finally got through to the guy from vicroads that is supposed to be dealing with this whole NCOP thing..

Basically he has NFI when it will become law in Victoria, currently it is out as "guidelines" and was open to comments until yesterday (30th April). Although he did say they would continue to consider comments for another couple of weeks, while it is being reviewed and "changes" possibly being made.. then it is a matter of bureaucratic efficiency as to how long it takes to become law. (this year? or early next.. like i said he had no idea about the date)

So if you are starting a project the current LAW is VSI8 as per the vicroad website.. however it is advised that you also consider VSB14 (the proposed NCOP) which is available from http://www.pharosalex.com.au/pages/33acs4.html however that is not the final edition so they may change it on you and make it law before your finished!!

For those who can't be bothered reading it, here is the critical bits affecting 4wdrives.

Things that can be done without Approval certificate (engineering cert):

Raising the height of the vehicle by no more than 50mm as a result of:
o the fitting of body blocks or lift kits (50mm maximum if no other modifications resulting in a change of vehicle height are performed),
o suspension modification, (50mm maximum if no other modifications resulting in a change of vehicle height are performed),
o changes to tyre size (maximum change in tyre size diameter of 50mm) or
o a combination of the above that results in change of vehicle height not exceeding 50mm.

anything over a TOTAL height change of 50mm requires certification and anything over 150mm is not even able to be certified:

Approvals that are not permitted under this Code include:
• Design approvals for vehicle originally equipped with ESC unless the type of modifications are approved by the vehicle manufacturer.
• Approval of the actual physical modification of particular vehicles (this is covered by Code LS8).
• Design approvals for modifications that raise the vehicle body more than 150mm from the original “as manufactured” height (lifting vehicles beyond 150mm is outside of the scope of this Code of Practice).
• Design approvals for modifications that raise the vehicle body more than 50mm from the original “as manufactured” height on vehicles that have had the wheel track reduced from the “as manufactured” width. Modifications to these vehicles will only be considered on an individual application basis.

Feel free to make any comments or anything that people have heard FIRSTHAND on this, all the information here is first hand knowledge and is to the best of my ability correct for VICTORIA. I just got sick of all the random stuff people were posting about this.

Cheers Craig

SWBMQCraig wrote:...anything over 150mm is not even able to be certified:

Although that might be the effective result, and authorities may choose to interpret it that way, this isn't what it literally says.

lifting vehicles beyond 150mm is outside of the scope of this Code of Practice

Doesn't make 150mm impossible. Perhaps as good as...

Good bit of research Craig

Good to see you are not on a regulator bashing rampage & actually trying to understand the regs.

Also kudos for perservering & talking to someone who knows.

I only hoe you got it in writing as that is the only recourse you have.

I am in the public service now & I try to deal with people in writing rather than verbally, it is better for all of us in the long run.

I have been criticised here for trying to explain how some of this works. I guess partly because of where I work I need to be careful with what I do.

Its disapointing at times but thats the way it is.

Craig, thats what we are working to and have been told byt more tha one engineer over the last few years that's what they are working to as well, however, that's 125mm of lift, not 150mm.

50BL + 50 Suspension + 50 tyre diameter )or 25mm of increase in car height.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:Craig, thats what we are working to and have been told byt more tha one engineer over the last few years that's what they are working to as well, however, that's 125mm of lift, not 150mm.

50BL + 50 Suspension + 50 tyre diameter )or 25mm of increase in car height.

Steve.

I don't think you have read the code properly steve, WITHOUT a approval certificate it is 50mm TOTAL LIFT.. not 50mm body lift plus 50mm tyre etc.. if you are to get a approval certificate under the NCOP there is no allowance for lift above 150mm TOTAL..

Craig

No Craig, I am fully aware of the code requirements and I am fully aware that no more than 50mm of body lift OR 50mm of suspension lift OR 50mm of tyre DIAMETER increase can be done before you are subject to a cert.

However, the issue is that you're claiming 150mm total lift is the recommended engineerable limit.

It's not, it's 50 suspension+50 body+50 TYRE DIAMETER which is 125mm of total lift.

You'll notice that 150mm total isn't mentioned in the NCOP. Everybody is adding 50+50+25 and getting 150mm.

It is true that over 125mm of cumulative lift might be engineerable, it will be hard for sure. Generally, engineers are working to the 50+50+50 rule and will be very reluctant to go beyond it.

In any case, that's plenty of lift in my book. You'll note, there's no effective limit on tyre diameter, so long as the cumulative lift limits are met, and the engineer is satisfied that your axles/bearings/brakes are up to it, you're not stuck at 50mm- example - put some OKA sourced Dana 70/80 diffs, certed for a 36" tyre, under your MQ, and you're rolling on legal 38's. (theoretically)

Remember, engineering rules are only a list of what you can't do, not a list of what you can do.

You'd be surprised what's permissable, as an example, the green landrover built by Nigel Gamblin and Daddylonglegs, featured in 4WDboredom a couple of years ago (38" swampers etc) complies with the NCOP as I understand it.

Steve.

Steve, from the NCOP document

Approvals that are not permitted under this Code include:
• Modifications to vehicles originally equipped with ESC unless the modifications are approved by the vehicle manufacturer.
• Design approval of the modification of particular vehicles (this is covered by Code LS7).
• Modifications that do not have a Design Approval in accordance with the requirements of Code LS7.
• Modifications that raise the vehicle body more than 150mm from the original “as manufactured” height (lifting vehicles beyond 150mm is outside of the scope of this Code of Practice).
• Modifications that raise the vehicle body more than 50mm from the original “as manufactured” height on vehicles that have had the wheel track reduced from the “as manufactured” width. Modifications to these vehicles will only be considered on an individual application basis.


I interpret that as meaning that under the code lifts above 150mm CAN"T be legal even with a engineers certificate..

certed for a 36" tyre, under your MQ, and you're rolling on legal 38's. (theoretically)

I havn't found anything to contradict this but it doesn't make sense to me that you can get a engineering cert. for a particular lift/tyre increase and then still apply the normal NCOP mod rules on top of the approval certificate increase?? Where did you get the idea this was legal from?

Cheers Craig

No, It's just applying the +50 rule to the largest certed tyre for the axle combination.

It's exactly how Nigel's landrover was certed on 38's - an FC101 landrover runs a 9.00 16 (36" diameter) so +50 for a 38.

Nigel's car is a 1973 range rover with a 1973 landrover body and FC101 axles.

No, you can't +50 over what's certed. If your cert says 36", you're on 36" not 36+50mm.

Steve.

How does that +50 rule work, from what i've read of the NCOP i've come to the conlcusion that you could probably have any size tyre as long as the body of the vehicle is not raised by more than 150mm over standard.

Did anyone else come to that conclusion or did i read something wrong

i personal spoke to an engineer an he said now that he will pass my lift but not the tires im soa 2" body extended shackles but he car'nt past my 35's... How shit.....! So i have a set of useless road tires......

Answer yes to has the tyre diamater been increased more than 50mm then it cannot be approved under LS8, this is clearly stated at the end of the document. Maybe there are other standard you can engineer to who knows?

yorgerg wrote:Did anyone else come to that conclusion

no

or did i read something wrong

yes

SWBMQCraig wrote:I just spoke with an engineer in bayswater that was talking about NCOP14 being legislation in a couple of weeks.. I think that cars that are currently engineered for lift/tyres will become very valuable! because no-one else will be able to do it from now onwards..

Craig

This just makes me even more pissed.

My 80 was just written off by insurance and was engineered with 6" lift and 35's in NSW.

Didn't help me at all since I live in QLD and could only run 33's and 2" lift.
But it's only a couple hours drive to the border.......

Chucky wrote:

SWBMQCraig wrote:I just spoke with an engineer in bayswater that was talking about NCOP14 being legislation in a couple of weeks.. I think that cars that are currently engineered for lift/tyres will become very valuable! because no-one else will be able to do it from now onwards..

Craig

This just makes me even more pissed.

My 80 was just written off by insurance and was engineered with 6" lift and 35's in NSW.

Didn't help me at all since I live in QLD and could only run 33's and 2" lift.
But it's only a couple hours drive to the border.......

You can't buy the wreck back, and repair it you're self?, or is it too far gone.

so will that affect the use of portal hubs which are supposed to be 4 inches in lift

vt 98 wrote:so will that affect the use of portal hubs which are supposed to be 4 inches in lift

As long as the overall lift remains within 150mm.

Slunnie wrote:

vt 98 wrote:so will that affect the use of portal hubs which are supposed to be 4 inches in lift

As long as the overall lift remains within 150mm.

Doesn't leave very much for suspension/tyres then.. maybe you could put lower springs in it? or u could run portals, and 2 inch springs with stock tyres.. or portals and 50mm larger tyres with 1" springs.. hmm not many options really...

Gwagensteve wrote:No, It's just applying the +50 rule to the largest certed tyre for the axle combination.

It's exactly how Nigel's landrover was certed on 38's - an FC101 landrover runs a 9.00 16 (36" diameter) so +50 for a 38.

Nigel's car is a 1973 range rover with a 1973 landrover body and FC101 axles.

No, you can't +50 over what's certed. If your cert says 36", you're on 36" not 36+50mm.

Steve.

Thanks Steve that makes more sense!!

SWBMQCraig wrote:

Slunnie wrote:

vt 98 wrote:so will that affect the use of portal hubs which are supposed to be 4 inches in lift

As long as the overall lift remains within 150mm.

Doesn't leave very much for suspension/tyres then.. maybe you could put lower springs in it? or u could run portals, and 2 inch springs with stock tyres.. or portals and 50mm larger tyres with 1" springs.. hmm not many options really...

That brings another issue as it may depend also on the size tyre that the portal is designed for. ie MogRover with standard Rangie springs but running 5" (or whatever in the portals) and 42" tyres which is the OE tyre size for that axle which would produce a 10"+ lift.... 4" too much. With Landys at least, if you lower them 2" from standard then they will be sitting on the front bumpstops! Probably makes it an unviable lift....

But... what if you give it a choptop and brought the height down by 4".... would that then comply???

Is the NCOP law in NSW now or is it just guidelines?

It's been coming in next month for the last three years WA are working to it, NSW think it's too strict, QLD not strict enougth, who knows really.

A couple of highlights from a letter sent by the RTA to all signatories, dated 25 March 2009:

The current version of the NCOP is not recognised by the RTA.

The NCOP is currently undergoing revision and it is intended that the revised document will be used in NSW when it is completed.

So Hulksta, that means it's not even a guideline in NSW right now.

Athol

Athol wrote:A couple of highlights from a letter sent by the RTA to all signatories, dated 25 March 2009:

The current version of the NCOP is not recognised by the RTA.

The NCOP is currently undergoing revision and it is intended that the revised document will be used in NSW when it is completed.

So Hulksta, that means it's not even a guideline in NSW right now.

Athol

Thanks Athol.. I better pull my finger out and finish the v8 and get it back over to you

From the vehicles I've been involved in the engineer has come and inspected , or the vehicle has been taken to him , the date on the engineering certificate is the build or mod date so any new rules coming in after that date should not apply to your vehicle , that said it should be accepted . Going further I know of some vehicles which where registered nearly a year after the engineering certificate was issued so if the original engineer would still sign of on your mods , you might be allright. Might be some help , but it is a pain to engineer a vehicle but their is a reason for it , to keep us all safe , also are the engineers your using doing a lot of 4wd's , Cheers Paul.

Hulksta wrote: Thanks Athol.. I better pull my finger out and finish the v8 and get it back over to you

I wouldn't expect the NCOP to be adopted in NSW within 6 months, if ever.

The RTA have a guy drafting their proposed complete re-write of the NCOP to make it more like the current NSW rules. It appears that VIC are doing something similar with their own re-write. You'll end up with a committee comprising one person from each state and territory being presented with multiple new proposed versions. Do you think that they'll ever all agree on one set of rules?

Athol

SWBMQCraig wrote:Steve, from the NCOP document

Approvals that are not permitted under this Code include:
• Modifications to vehicles originally equipped with ESC unless the modifications are approved by the vehicle manufacturer.
• Design approval of the modification of particular vehicles (this is covered by Code LS7).
• Modifications that do not have a Design Approval in accordance with the requirements of Code LS7.
• Modifications that raise the vehicle body more than 150mm from the original “as manufactured” height (lifting vehicles beyond 150mm is outside of the scope of this Code of Practice).
• Modifications that raise the vehicle body more than 50mm from the original “as manufactured” height on vehicles that have had the wheel track reduced from the “as manufactured” width. Modifications to these vehicles will only be considered on an individual application basis.


I interpret that as meaning that under the code lifts above 150mm CAN"T be legal even with a engineers certificate..

certed for a 36" tyre, under your MQ, and you're rolling on legal 38's. (theoretically)

I havn't found anything to contradict this but it doesn't make sense to me that you can get a engineering cert. for a particular lift/tyre increase and then still apply the normal NCOP mod rules on top of the approval certificate increase?? Where did you get the idea this was legal from?

Cheers Craig

yorgerg wrote:How does that +50 rule work, from what i've read of the NCOP i've come to the conlcusion that you could probably have any size tyre as long as the body of the vehicle is not raised by more than 150mm over standard.

Did anyone else come to that conclusion or did i read something wrong

The way I read it, you can have any size tyres you wish as long as
you don't exced a total lift of more than 150mm, obviously you'd need to do some tricky stuff to fit 35's on most 4WD's without a lift

After reading through some of the modification guidlines, I'm more than happy to go with them

I'd have to revise the actual ADR's, but I can't see anywhere that it states that a total lift of more than 150mm is actually not possible,It just simply states that it is not covered under this NCOP which basically says it's up to your engineer.
One example of this is a wide track conversion on a hilux, it combined with a set of legal 15x8 rims and a brake upgrade will result in a track increase of more than 50mm, or a GU diff swap into a hilux or GQ which again increases the track by more than 50mm which under the guidelines in not permissible yet this is something commonly accepted and not deemed "illegal"

I used to have to consult with the RTA here in NSW, and on more than one occasion where a point of contention about ARD's etc was raised was told it's black and white, there is no grey area.
Simply put, NCOP and applicible ADR's don't actually tell you what you can or can't do. but what is required to be done in order to actually make it legal.

If you build a car with a 4" lift and 35's that can handle and brake as well as meet all relavent design rules you should have no problems getting it registered assuming of course you can find an engineer who is willing to work with you regardless of what state you are in.

Athol,

it is good to see an engineering signatory on here.
suprising though i must say.
but it certainly wont hurt your business.

Anthony

Athol wrote:I wouldn't expect the NCOP to be adopted in NSW within 6 months, if ever.

*shock*

Athol wrote:A couple of highlights from a letter sent by the RTA to all signatories, dated 25 March 2009:

The current version of the NCOP is not recognised by the RTA.

The NCOP is currently undergoing revision and it is intended that the revised document will be used in NSW when it is completed.

So Hulksta, that means it's not even a guideline in NSW right now.

Athol

Hey Athol , i was talking to you last week about the 4 inch lift and 35's on my nissan , is there any way in the near future you can engineer this setup? or do i have to take it to someone in shitney and pay $10,000 (which i dont have) for this new "brake test"