Outer Limits 4x4 Board

mike_nofx wrote:
v840 - im sure a 40 with a v8 would be ok in auto, but for those of us who actually have more brain-cells than horsepower i dont think auto is always the best answer.

Also, i thought so called "hardcore" tracks also have a lot of shit-yer-pants decents... apparently decents are the auto's weakness??

Mike

Somewhat ironically my 40 was a manual and at the time I thought it was the bees knees off road. That is until I drove the same tracks with my auto GQ. Did everything so much easier and in my eyes, safer. Both cars had similar flex, lift, tyres, etc. but the GQ was far and away the better vehicle off road.
I still love my manuals on road and if you honestly prefer it then good for you but try a rocky, steep incline in a manual then an auto and see which one you find better. I will be amazed if you prefer the manual.


As for descents, there are various techniques available to overcome an auto's want to "run away" down steep angles. Left foot braking, cadence braking, etc. can negate any ill effects in all but the narliest descents IMO.


I'm now on to Sierra's too. As soon as I get the chance, I'm going to a 1.6 and auto. Power is nothing without control. Interestingly I'm building my Sierra in 2 stages which will roughly be 'suspension' then 'engine/gearbox'. This will give me a really good insight in to whether I prefer wheeling the same car with auto or manual. I think with the gearing I'll have, the manual will be more than acceptable and I'll be curious to see whether the auto is as much better as I think it will be. I think it will be but who knows?

Once again, mostly, the good points come out.

I have driven autos and manuals extensively off and on road.

Like for like, an auto is more capable. The reason it is more capable has nothing to do with whether you are changing gears yourself or not - in my Gwagen I change gears all the time offroad and it's auto.

It's all about the fluid coupling (torque converter) that makes gears flexible and allows torque to be "dialled up" almost irrespective of wheelspeed.

My 660 Sierra would be rubbish as an auto, but it has 120:1 1st low- I can get by without the converter.

My Gwagen would be rubbish as a manual.

I've built an (efi) 1.3 sierra auto and it's great.

Manuals need about twice the gearing of a auto to work nearly as well.

the golf GTI uses a DSG gearbox which has NO fluid coupling so it's not an automatic. (in the conventional sense) a DSG would be terrible offroad, as much as I'd love one in my road car.

Steve.

The one thing that really pi**es me off is people who rant on about engine braking and then say an auto is for people who can't drive! Engine braking is for those who can't brake or control a vehicle properly. Once you master left foot braking then all of a sudden the whole process of driving changes and the ability of a vehicle increases accordingly.

I like a lot of poeple here have auto 4x4 and manual road cars. It is just what works better. Sure my 4x4 has alot of power and it is a manual auto but it is (as has been said) about a torque convertor and noting to do with changing gears. A fluid clutch allows progressive power to be applied to the ground and that reduces drivetrain stress and increases available traction. The amount of power is irrelevant. Yes in low powered vehicles it can be a factor, but the advantages far out wiegh this.

Get a life before you start making rash statements that prove you have no idea as to what you are saying!!

PS Love the edit but i htought there were rules about only being able to rearrange the words and not add new ones in!!!

mike_nofx wrote:Automatic of course, if your a woman. For the rest of the population, its gotta be manual!

Seriously tho, changing gears is part of driving a bloody vehicle!

I put changing gears up there with steering and braking. If the 4x4's of the future had 'automatic steering' how many of you people would vote that auto steering is better than manual steering on an internet forum?

Mike

so you don't own or have driven an auto offroad?....and yet your offering advice to someone who wants to know. my sierra has been converted to 4 speed auto, allong with many others, and one thing we will not do is ever go back to a manual in a 4x4. manuals have thier place, but for me that is not offroad. and um....yes auto steering debate over manual steering...........do you have any clue?

No I have never driven an Auto off road! So maybe i don't have a clue, but i am entitled to my opinion (no matter how stupid)

Didn't realise Auto drivers were so sensitive

And where are the rest of the manual supporters? Auto is winning the poll, but there isn't that much in it!

But out of curiosity, how does torque converter 'slipping' differ from clutch slipping? (serious question)

and another serious question, what woud the ratio of auto to manual transmissions in off-road comp vehicles be roughly? and in general, what system are the 'winners' usually running?

Mike

mike_nofx wrote:No I have never driven an Auto off road! So maybe i don't have a clue, but i am entitled to my opinion (no matter how stupid)

Didn't realise Auto drivers were so sensitive

They're not.

mike_nofx wrote:And where are the rest of the manual supporters? Auto is winning the poll, but there isn't that much in it!

When you consider the number of "enthusiasts" who share your opinion on Autos, I think the results are a resounding endorsement of auto 4wds.

mike_nofx wrote:But out of curiosity, how does torque converter 'slipping' differ from clutch slipping? (serious question)

How.

mike_nofx wrote:and another serious question, what woud the ratio of auto to manual transmissions in off-road comp vehicles be roughly? and in general, what system are the 'winners' usually running?

Mike

Good question, and I really don't know the answer. But I suspect you won't like it.

mike_nofx wrote:No I have never driven an Auto off road! So maybe i don't have a clue, but i am entitled to my opinion (no matter how stupid)

Didn't realise Auto drivers were so sensitive

And where are the rest of the manual supporters? Auto is winning the poll, but there isn't that much in it!

But out of curiosity, how does torque converter 'slipping' differ from clutch slipping? (serious question)

and another serious question, what woud the ratio of auto to manual transmissions in off-road comp vehicles be roughly? and in general, what system are the 'winners' usually running?

Mike

Mate, your not knowing, or your opinion is not the issue, your attitude is!

I am a manual supporter, big time.
However I have a healthy respect for automatic transmissions, and I am not going to vote for manual in a pole like this (I have not actually voted).

I'll try to explain in simple terms the advantages of a torque converter. When a torque converter "slips" it doesn't just generate wasted heat like a clutch, it actually acts like a reduction gearbox and increases the torque going out of it. Also clutches wear, torque converters are essentially maintenance free. Also a clutch can be "dropped" creating a undesirable shock load through your drive train which can break stuff, torque converters minimise this problem.

Edit: Scott, that "How" link is awesome

I've had a manual and an auto in the same vehicle and have a strong preference for the auto.

Steve's right, its not the self shifting that matters ( mine is electrically shifted and manually controlled ) its the clutchless changes and the torque multiplication offered by the converter that IMO makes all the difference.

Clutchless shifts are cool and offer great rpm control in places where you would be very hesitant to change gears in a manual - and when coupled with the converters ability to provide static torque, and torque multiplication - its hard to beat. Add transfer gears and its very effective.

I'm not a fan of old fashioned auto's in road cars ( the new double clutch automatic manuals are in a different league however ) but I'll stick with my auto off road. I was against them initially, but after seeing the control Steves GWagen had I rapidly changed my mind.

However on the negative side, I think they loose some of their value in underpowered vehicles.

mike_nofx wrote:
and another serious question, what woud the ratio of auto to manual transmissions in off-road comp vehicles be roughly? and in general, what system are the 'winners' usually running?

Mike

The majority are auto's, both tuff truck style rigs and buggies.


Layto....

Great thread...............lots of interesting stuff that reinforces what I've learnt from this forum AND driving tracks and comp (Tough Tracks 2005/6).

My 4b's have ALL been manuals. Just before I got rid of my LN65 DC Hilux, I toyed with the idea of putting a Surf auto into it, but then I bought the Mav'.

Currently I have a 2001 GU, and if I won lotto (or can save that much), I'd replace the ZD30 manual with a TB48E + 5sp Auto. In a heartbeat!! Or even a TB45E + 4 sp auto!!

bigbluemav wrote:Great thread...............lots of interesting stuff that reinforces what I've learnt from this forum AND driving tracks and comp (Tough Tracks 2005/6).

My 4b's have ALL been manuals. Just before I got rid of my LN65 DC Hilux, I toyed with the idea of putting a Surf auto into it, but then I bought the Mav'.

Currently I have a 2001 GU, and if I won lotto (or can save that much), I'd replace the ZD30 manual with a TB48E + 5sp Auto. In a heartbeat!! Or even a TB45E + 4 sp auto!!

Surely selling off a (presumably) good ZD30 would cover the costs of a TB48E and auto?

you can actually get a good ZD30??