Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Posted: **Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:21 pm**

Well then you failed punctuation Blade! No capital letters at the start of a sentence or fullstop at the end!

Posted: **Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:26 pm**

Hey thanks for the grammar lesson Blade, and the lesson in respect.
Would that be the same respect that you are lacking by insulting my family, and their parenting prowess?

Sorry for taking a tangent in this thread...

BTW I respect those who deserve it.

Posted: **Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:12 pm**

Now, children, behave, or you'll force one of our poor, over-worked moderators to do some more work cleaning another thread of inconsequential rubbish.

Or they might simply hit the lock button.

Posted: **Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:13 pm**

-Scott- wrote:Now, children, behave, or you'll force one of our poor, over-worked moderators do do some more work cleaning another thread of inconsequential rubbish.

Or they might simply hit the lock button.

Or even the ban button for all the idiots that want to dribble shit in a tech section

Posted: **Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:11 pm**

RUFF wrote:
-Scott- wrote:Now, children, behave, or you'll force one of our poor, over-worked moderators do do some more work cleaning another thread of inconsequential rubbish.

Or they might simply hit the lock button.
Or even the ban button for all the idiots that want to dribble shit in a tech section

i think i can hear the bus warming up..........

Posted: **Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:07 pm**

RUFF wrote:
-Scott- wrote:Now, children, behave, or you'll force one of our poor, over-worked moderators do do some more work cleaning another thread of inconsequential rubbish.

Or they might simply hit the lock button.
Or even the ban button for all the idiots that want to dribble shit in a tech section

dude you can't swear in here, kids might see it

Posted: **Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:21 am**

I've had a rear in an MQ (no probs), rear in a GQ (no probs) and I've currently got two lockers in my 100. All fitted by ARB Moorebank, rear in 2001, front in 2006.

My 100's rear airlocker had the "oil back up the line" issue. Gradually the rear diff oil worked it's way back up to the solenoid and each time it was disengaged it sprayed a nice coating of lovely smelling gearbox oil into the engine bay. Didn't really bother me, but I wouldn't have been happy if I had the compressor inside the car!

And let me assure you there is nowhere near 1L of oil in a locker line. More like 30 or 40mL I'd say. If I blew the line out it would only take maybe 10 apply/release cycles to get the oil back up to the solenoid.

When I had the ratios/centres swapped for my engine conversion recently, the guy at JMac said it was a relatively common problem and that ARB was now using a new square 'O' ring that was supposed to fix it, so he fitted one when he reassembled the centre. I'll let you know if it didn't fix it once I get it hooked back up.

As for the front, a week after getting it installed I went for a weekend up at Jenolan to give it a bit of a workout. 2nd time I turned it on, it blew the internal copper line and pressurised the front axle housing, pumping all the diff oil and hub grease out via the swivel hubs before I realised. One of those times when it wasn't a good thing to have a large air reservoir tank! Stole little bits of oil from all my mates' diffs to get me back to civilisation.

ARB fixed it under warranty plus replaced the seals etc, no arguments.

Don't get me wrong I think the air lockers are a great product but like anything there are problems around.

Posted: **Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:14 pm**

my arb's in my gu leaked in the rear forcing oil up the line and into my chassis ( as that is where the dump line was placed ) took it back to arb and they fixed it under warranty , well they attempted to .

my arbs in my lux diffs i installed my self and they didn't leak until the top line come abit loose and allowed air into the diff and the smell of oil into the cab from the diff breather and of course no rear locker activation , tighten up the top fitting and all is well .

my mates gq is currantly leaking intermittantly in the rear diff , he has sent it back once before after he first got it installed to rectify the issue but obviously again it was to big a job for them to actually fix it , seems alot of the places around don't install them properly and because of their poor upbringing (like lump_a_charcoal has had) they lack the desire to do things right even when the dodgey work comes back .May be they only install properly the ones whom's cars they respect

even though ive had these little problems with mine i still prefer these over my ez-locker and my welded diffs , installed properly they will do you no wrong unless you snag one off the lines on a stick or something , but you can get repair kits for the air lines anyways , so realy that is not a real issue .

Posted: **Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:17 pm**

AustImages wrote:

As for the front, a week after getting it installed I went for a weekend up at Jenolan to give it a bit of a workout. 2nd time I turned it on, it blew the internal copper line and pressurised the front axle housing, pumping all the diff oil and hub grease out via the swivel hubs before I realised. One of those times when it wasn't a good thing to have a large air reservoir tank! Stole little bits of oil from all my mates' diffs to get me back to civilisation.

ARB fixed it under warranty plus replaced the seals etc, no arguments.

Don't get me wrong I think the air lockers are a great product but like anything there are problems around.

So you had blocked breathers and they still fixed it under warrenty? Or was there another issue???

Posted: **Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:43 pm**

nottie wrote:
AustImages wrote:

As for the front, a week after getting it installed I went for a weekend up at Jenolan to give it a bit of a workout. 2nd time I turned it on, it blew the internal copper line and pressurised the front axle housing, pumping all the diff oil and hub grease out via the swivel hubs before I realised. One of those times when it wasn't a good thing to have a large air reservoir tank! Stole little bits of oil from all my mates' diffs to get me back to civilisation.

ARB fixed it under warranty plus replaced the seals etc, no arguments.

Don't get me wrong I think the air lockers are a great product but like anything there are problems around.
So you had blocked breathers and they still fixed it under warrenty? Or was there another issue???

it blew the internal copper line. probably where it is soldered into the air housing.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:13 pm**

dumbdunce wrote:
nottie wrote:
AustImages wrote:

As for the front, a week after getting it installed I went for a weekend up at Jenolan to give it a bit of a workout. 2nd time I turned it on, it blew the internal copper line and pressurised the front axle housing, pumping all the diff oil and hub grease out via the swivel hubs before I realised. One of those times when it wasn't a good thing to have a large air reservoir tank! Stole little bits of oil from all my mates' diffs to get me back to civilisation.

ARB fixed it under warranty plus replaced the seals etc, no arguments.

Don't get me wrong I think the air lockers are a great product but like anything there are problems around.

So you had blocked breathers and they still fixed it under warrenty? Or was there another issue???
it blew the internal copper line. probably where it is soldered into the air housing.

If the copper line blew or broke then it would leak air into the diff housing. So it should have vented thru the breather?
Either way it was fixed under warrenty. Speaks alot for the supplier i think.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:24 pm**

nottie wrote:
dumbdunce wrote:
nottie wrote:
AustImages wrote:

As for the front, a week after getting it installed I went for a weekend up at Jenolan to give it a bit of a workout. 2nd time I turned it on, it blew the internal copper line and pressurised the front axle housing, pumping all the diff oil and hub grease out via the swivel hubs before I realised. One of those times when it wasn't a good thing to have a large air reservoir tank! Stole little bits of oil from all my mates' diffs to get me back to civilisation.

ARB fixed it under warranty plus replaced the seals etc, no arguments.

Don't get me wrong I think the air lockers are a great product but like anything there are problems around.

So you had blocked breathers and they still fixed it under warrenty? Or was there another issue???
it blew the internal copper line. probably where it is soldered into the air housing.
If the copper line blew or broke then it would leak air into the diff housing. So it should have vented thru the breather?
Either way it was fixed under warrenty. Speaks alot for the supplier i think.

100psi ( from a tank) being dumped into the housing is not going to escape fast enough out of the breather hole. so what happened is normal if you dont have a 1" breather

Jes

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:48 pm**

alien wrote:think about the length of the air line from the diff to the compressor - that'd be almost 1L of oil to suck up before it got to the compressor =) haha

plus, the only time its going to "suck" oil out would be expansion/compression between hitting hot water with cold diffs...

Actually with 4mm tube it's only 0.019 litre for 3m of tube.

With 6mm tube its 0.038 litre.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:52 pm**

jessie928 wrote:
nottie wrote:
dumbdunce wrote:
nottie wrote:
AustImages wrote:

As for the front, a week after getting it installed I went for a weekend up at Jenolan to give it a bit of a workout. 2nd time I turned it on, it blew the internal copper line and pressurised the front axle housing, pumping all the diff oil and hub grease out via the swivel hubs before I realised. One of those times when it wasn't a good thing to have a large air reservoir tank! Stole little bits of oil from all my mates' diffs to get me back to civilisation.

ARB fixed it under warranty plus replaced the seals etc, no arguments.

Don't get me wrong I think the air lockers are a great product but like anything there are problems around.

So you had blocked breathers and they still fixed it under warrenty? Or was there another issue???
it blew the internal copper line. probably where it is soldered into the air housing.
If the copper line blew or broke then it would leak air into the diff housing. So it should have vented thru the breather?
Either way it was fixed under warrenty. Speaks alot for the supplier i think.
100psi ( from a tank) being dumped into the housing is not going to escape fast enough out of the breather hole. so what happened is normal if you dont have a 1" breather

Jes

Doesnt everyone have 1inch breathers

No Jes good point.
And as was posted it had a decent tank behind it aswell.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:00 pm**

On a serious note there seem to be enough people describing this issue as having occured with their lockers, in a well thought out and respectable manner, for me to believe it is a fairly common fault for the O/Ring on some lockers to allow oil back up the line to be vented out of the solenoid.

I reckon ARB lockers do have this fault, mine has never done it, but I don't doubt that it happens.

Is that a fairly educated assumption to make, or should I simply ignore the well worded examples by apparently educated people in this thread

Cheers

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:26 pm**

Just because a dozen people have said they have had a problem doesn't mean that is an inherent problem as you don't hear of the many thousands who don't have the problem.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:47 pm**

grimbo wrote:Just because a dozen people have said they have had a problem doesn't mean that is an inherent problem as you don't hear of the many thousands who don't have the problem.

you dont hear about the thousands of people who has a ZD30 that runs fine either, doesnt mean there isnt a problem with them

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:56 pm**

macca81 wrote:
grimbo wrote:Just because a dozen people have said they have had a problem doesn't mean that is an inherent problem as you don't hear of the many thousands who don't have the problem.
you dont hear about the thousands of people who has a ZD30 that runs fine either, doesnt mean there isnt a problem with them

not the same thing. he was asking based on just this discussion. On this discussion you can't make the assumption.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:29 pm**

of course its the same thing. all discusions regarding problems will bring out the people that have had the problems. all the people that have had no problems generaly just dont bother. im yet to have seen a thread that has the title 'my ARB airlocker is great!' or 'wow those guys at wykiki TJM are the best'. you have to make the assumptions based upon who learned the negative opinions appear to be, because next to no1 pips in with a positive opinion.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:27 pm**

macca81 wrote:of course its the same thing. all discusions regarding problems will bring out the people that have had the problems. all the people that have had no problems generaly just dont bother. im yet to have seen a thread that has the title 'my ARB airlocker is great!' or 'wow those guys at wykiki TJM are the best'. you have to make the assumptions based upon who learned the negative opinions appear to be, because next to no1 pips in with a positive opinion.

I would tend to agree with that. Not many people say thanks when you do a good job but if you fark it up they sure let you know about it!

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:28 pm**

Struth wrote:On a serious note there seem to be enough people describing this issue as having occured with their lockers, in a well thought out and respectable manner, for me to believe it is a fairly common fault for the O/Ring on some lockers to allow oil back up the line to be vented out of the solenoid.

I reckon ARB lockers do have this fault, mine has never done it, but I don't doubt that it happens.

Is that a fairly educated assumption to make, or should I simply ignore the well worded examples by apparently educated people in this thread

Cheers

have you read the other threads as posted? the reason for the "leaking" of oil back through the seals is fairly simple to explain and usually has little to do with the o-ring setup.

cut and pasted from the old thread for people too lazy to click:

dumbdunce wrote:
hypolux wrote:
dumbdunce wrote:search! (you'll get the same answer, blocked breather or poor installation)

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=25918
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=11002

the most likely cause is the blocked breather. the second most likely cause is poor installation, with the side air housing not perfectly square and concentric on the bearing spigot extension. if the locker locks and stays locked without the compressor running or cycling (once every 5 minutes or so is ok), the o-rings are fine. clear the breather, flush your blue line with some compressed air, and see how it goes. as long as it's not vomiting spoonfuls of oil it's fine. in fact some oil in the line gives you quicker engagement and more locks per cycle. it's not all bad.
if the seals r fine then how is the oil getting into the air line ??
three common modes:

1. the o-rings and the side air housing are designed to seal against a positive pressure in the line and between the o-rings - when that pressure system is reversed, for example by the axle breather being blocked, and positive pressure building up in the axle housing due to the increase in temperature of the oil and air in the housing under running conditions, some of the fluids in the housing (oil and air) are forced past the o-rings, into the side air housing, and eventually back up the air line. once the pressure is reversed again, the o-rings seal, the locker locks. if they don't leak when there is pressure in the line, they are doing what they were designed to do, and are obviously in a servicable condition.

2. everything above goes double for the U-ring in the annular cylinder - it is designed to seal one-way (with pressure on the concave side), and when the pressure is released, or builds up on the other side (eg blocked breather + running temp) it is very easy for oil to bypass the u-ring, and work it way into the side air housing and eventually into the air line.

3. on assembly of the locker, it it not unusual for the monkey to squirt a little (lot) of fresh oil around to make sure everything is well lubed. I know I do it, because it's not uncommon for the u-ring to be inadequately lubed out of the box and it can be a scary moment if the locker doesn't lock. also plenty of oil gets splashed around when fitting the side air housing to avoid damage to the o-rings as they are worked over the end of the spigot extension (or the side housing worked over the o-rings which run in grooves in the spigot extension in some models). some of this oil obviously ends up inside the side air housing and annular cylinder, and on de-activation works its way back up the line with the released air.

summary: if the compressor runs continuously or cycles, AND no external leakage can be found, the o-rings and/or the U ring are damaged and need replacing - this is almost always a case of poor installation, involving a failure to install the side air housing square and concentric with the spigot extension. If the compressor does not run, or cycles less often about about once every few minutes, the internals of the locker are fine and the oil ejection from the solenoid valve should be considered normal.

is that more clear?

cheers

Brian

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:50 pm**

arb are a joke even alot of them cant get the installation right

not even going to say more.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:32 pm**

dumbdunce wrote:
Struth wrote:On a serious note there seem to be enough people describing this issue as having occured with their lockers, in a well thought out and respectable manner, for me to believe it is a fairly common fault for the O/Ring on some lockers to allow oil back up the line to be vented out of the solenoid.

I reckon ARB lockers do have this fault, mine has never done it, but I don't doubt that it happens.

Is that a fairly educated assumption to make, or should I simply ignore the well worded examples by apparently educated people in this thread

Cheers
have you read the other threads as posted? the reason for the "leaking" of oil back through the seals is fairly simple to explain and usually has little to do with the o-ring setup.

cut and pasted from the old thread for people too lazy to click:

dumbdunce wrote:
hypolux wrote:
dumbdunce wrote:search! (you'll get the same answer, blocked breather or poor installation)

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=25918
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=11002

the most likely cause is the blocked breather. the second most likely cause is poor installation, with the side air housing not perfectly square and concentric on the bearing spigot extension. if the locker locks and stays locked without the compressor running or cycling (once every 5 minutes or so is ok), the o-rings are fine. clear the breather, flush your blue line with some compressed air, and see how it goes. as long as it's not vomiting spoonfuls of oil it's fine. in fact some oil in the line gives you quicker engagement and more locks per cycle. it's not all bad.
if the seals r fine then how is the oil getting into the air line ??
three common modes:

1. the o-rings and the side air housing are designed to seal against a positive pressure in the line and between the o-rings - when that pressure system is reversed, for example by the axle breather being blocked, and positive pressure building up in the axle housing due to the increase in temperature of the oil and air in the housing under running conditions, some of the fluids in the housing (oil and air) are forced past the o-rings, into the side air housing, and eventually back up the air line. once the pressure is reversed again, the o-rings seal, the locker locks. if they don't leak when there is pressure in the line, they are doing what they were designed to do, and are obviously in a servicable condition.

2. everything above goes double for the U-ring in the annular cylinder - it is designed to seal one-way (with pressure on the concave side), and when the pressure is released, or builds up on the other side (eg blocked breather + running temp) it is very easy for oil to bypass the u-ring, and work it way into the side air housing and eventually into the air line.

3. on assembly of the locker, it it not unusual for the monkey to squirt a little (lot) of fresh oil around to make sure everything is well lubed. I know I do it, because it's not uncommon for the u-ring to be inadequately lubed out of the box and it can be a scary moment if the locker doesn't lock. also plenty of oil gets splashed around when fitting the side air housing to avoid damage to the o-rings as they are worked over the end of the spigot extension (or the side housing worked over the o-rings which run in grooves in the spigot extension in some models). some of this oil obviously ends up inside the side air housing and annular cylinder, and on de-activation works its way back up the line with the released air.

summary: if the compressor runs continuously or cycles, AND no external leakage can be found, the o-rings and/or the U ring are damaged and need replacing - this is almost always a case of poor installation, involving a failure to install the side air housing square and concentric with the spigot extension. If the compressor does not run, or cycles less often about about once every few minutes, the internals of the locker are fine and the oil ejection from the solenoid valve should be considered normal.

is that more clear?

cheers

Brian

In your summary you state that oil ejection is considered normal, is that the case, I have heard people talking of the oil ejection problem being fixed/overcome in later model lockers.

In order for the oil to make it from the rear locker to say an underbonnet compressor some back pressure must surely be present, it's fairly basic mechanics to understand how a pressurised diff housing will lead to pressurised oil being driven back up the line.

I would like to here from those who have had this problem and wether or not they checked their diff breathers to ensure they functioned correctly.

Cheers

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:02 pm**

money_killer wrote:arb are a joke even alot of them cant get the installation right not even going to say more.

Thats a clever well thought out assumption.
Im guessing you speak for the 100's of fitting shops all over Australia and beyond that you've personally had experience with

Nice how you say youre not going to say more..

Bazzle

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:04 pm**

macca81 wrote:... because next to no1 pips in with a positive opinion.

i have a positive opinion about my air lockers

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:04 pm**

Struth wrote: In your summary you state that oil ejection is considered normal, is that the case, I have heard people talking of the oil ejection problem being fixed/overcome in later model lockers.

In order for the oil to make it from the rear locker to say an underbonnet compressor some back pressure must surely be present, it's fairly basic mechanics to understand how a pressurised diff housing will lead to pressurised oil being driven back up the line.

I would like to here from those who have had this problem and wether or not they checked their diff breathers to ensure they functioned correctly.

Cheers

it is possible that the profile of internal seals has been changed since I wrote that piece. I haven't had a locker newer than about 5 years old open however if the side o-rings have been replaced with quad seals and/or the profile of the annular u-ring has been redesigned it's possible that these changes could lead to a reduction in the amount of oil ejected back to the compressor.

Most (all?) factory axle breathers include a spring loaded check valve which prevents the ingress of dirt/water etc, and as a result the spring holding the valve closed will result in the axle retaining a small (say in the 1 - 5 psi range) pressure as it warms up. seals designed to seal well at 80 - 100psi will probably not seal well at a low pressure in the reverse direction - the u-ring seal especially in the air locker is designed to seal very well in one direction. any pressure at all in the other direction is likely to bleed a small amount of oil back past it. it's like a reed valve in a two stroke engine for example. the result of this could be that even with axle breathers functioning within the manufacturer's specifications, it would be possible for small amount of oil to bypass the air locker seals and eventually work their way back up to the compressor. as has already been calculated, the volume of oil in a couple of meters of air line is very very small.

you could say it's a theory that fits the available evidence. As people have already pointed out, you never hear about the hundreds if not thousands of any particular product that work perfectly for their design life - or well beyond.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:27 pm**

I had my RD90 apart a couple weekends ago not entirely just opened up.
Is there a seal between the gear that engages the spider and the air outlet/inlet that supplies air behind it to activate the locking gear, if not then It would seem that the only thing preventing air getting back up the lines would be machining tolerance between that gear and the housing.

Cheers

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:52 pm**

Struth wrote:I had my RD90 apart a couple weekends ago not entirely just opened up.
Is there a seal between the gear that engages the spider and the air outlet/inlet that supplies air behind it to activate the locking gear, if not then It would seem that the only thing preventing air getting back up the lines would be machining tolerance between that gear and the housing.

Cheers

there is. this would be the u-ring I have mentioned.

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:58 pm**

macca81 wrote:
grimbo wrote:Just because a dozen people have said they have had a problem doesn't mean that is an inherent problem as you don't hear of the many thousands who don't have the problem.
you dont hear about the thousands of people who has a ZD30 that runs fine either, doesnt mean there isnt a problem with them

Old mn has 6 ZD30's and everyone has never had a problem.

And I have never had a problem with my Air lockers

Posted: **Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:04 pm**

nottie wrote:
AustImages wrote:

As for the front, a week after getting it installed I went for a weekend up at Jenolan to give it a bit of a workout. 2nd time I turned it on, it blew the internal copper line and pressurised the front axle housing, pumping all the diff oil and hub grease out via the swivel hubs before I realised. One of those times when it wasn't a good thing to have a large air reservoir tank! Stole little bits of oil from all my mates' diffs to get me back to civilisation.

ARB fixed it under warranty plus replaced the seals etc, no arguments.

Don't get me wrong I think the air lockers are a great product but like anything there are problems around.
So you had blocked breathers and they still fixed it under warrenty? Or was there another issue???

Nope, nothing wrong with the breather. But on my 100 the breather just goes into an expandable plastic reservoir with an extremely small vent hole, presumably to minimise contaminants getting into the oil. This is factory. Remember, it's only designed to cope with expansion/contraction due to heat, a very low volume of air. The small hole was nowhere near large enough to cope with the volume of air being forced into the diff housing.

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ARB air lockers