Outer Limits 4x4 Board

lets say mr jon smith wanted to lease a buggy for a season
what kind of outlay just for the machine?
besides the obvious,maintanance,breakages

bloody good concept,creates a whole new industry
not only for sales but for the manafacture
which creates employment.
offroad which is only offroad keeps the need for any1
who has the need for a build ,keeping shitboxs of the road
only downside will be management/facilitys.
government funds,cough,government support.
if it shows a return!im sure it can be taxed like other things!

This is getting away from 4x4 tech and into wealth creation / business value so I need to quantify that this is my opinion on the questions asked and NOT something I’m recommending guys do.

Money is relative. Let just say you need $100,000 for a ‘business venture’. If you can make 20% ‘return on investment’ from the venture then you can offer someone with $100,000 10% and still be ahead. Most people are getting a lot less than that at a bank. The way to get $$$ is to focus on the return on investment % not the amount. Personally I think people are more incentivised when they have their own $$$ at risk.

Do I think this will become a rich mans comp? I think rich men compete with sports that allow them to get an advantage with their money. If you haven’t got $150,000 for a Winch Challenge truck I doubt you’d be competitive. I’m talking about creating a sport that is a formula class. $$$ don’t help.

Do I think “rich men” will get involved with this: I sure as hell hope so. My ideal scenario is we get 20 guys who want to own “businesses”. They don’t want to drive the 4x4 they just want to make the sport bigger because that means they get greater returns both with the drive package booking volume and sponsorship opportunities. Rich guys tend to see the opportunities that other don’t, and have the resources to act on them.

As far a being a driver the smart ‘business owners’ will be looking for certain types of drivers: being able to drive like Fuk is a given but being presentable to potential sponsors, good communicator on camera, prepared to go the extra yards without their hand out all the time. Take the Toys merchandise idea (have you seen the rows and rows of 4x4’s in toy shops!) You need a driver who can sit and talk with kids at a toy shop for two hours as a sponsorship deal, do an interview for TV then go to lunch with a bunch of ‘suits’ before taking them for a spin. Racing Drivers spend a lot less time ‘driving’ and a lot more time ‘working’ than people think.

As for debt of the business there are two issues: should I pay off the buggy that’s costing me 10% or use those funds to make 20%? I know a heap of guys in business that own everything but have no working capital so can’t make any money. They hit a down turn like this and go under; but they own lots of cool stuff that’s worth half what they paid for it!?

The second issue is McDonalds. Why is it worth $1.5m to own one when a ‘hamburger joint’ is $100,000? I’ve invested heavily into the ‘systems’ that make Ragged Edge profitable. When I sell an Owner / Driver business the “value” is in the systems that create wealth not the 4x4 that depreciates. I still own the systems.

Chris, i have been reading the past few posts and its amazing to me that you will start a new venture BEFORE paying outstanding debt, you state that you still owe money from the first buggy that was built for you back in 2006, you still owe myself and many others a substantial amount of money and your past attempts to create a profitable business has failed and resulted in a massive loss to others.
I only feel that it is fair that people know the truth about Ragged Edge, up until now i have not spoken out about the money that is owed to myself for building the 3 buggies that are currently still operating, i have not received a single cent since i finished building the buggies for Ragged Edge back in late 07 as promised
the buggy world is a small place and due to the way i have been treated this is why a experienced and successful contender has withdrawn from your competition and i suggest others think carefully before pursuing any business or financial plans with Ragged Edge

Hey Matt, Jessvdl,

I'm honestly really glad you bought that up; I'd like to tell my story and let people make up their own minds.

Bear with me while I get this all down; I haven't typed this much in a long time!

Chris, regardless of what story you wish to tell i felt that people should be aware of the massive risk and the fact that no attempt has been made on your behalf to pay any outstanding amount to myself and others from your last adventure at Port Melbourne. Ragged Edge would not exist without the crew that built the buggies!
i do not wish to have a debate and continue to reply to countless posts, i just wanted the public to know my failed business, and financial dealings i have had with Ragged Edge

Thanks Matt for making this public knowlegde. I too have been waiting for over a year to be paid several months wages. I have lost all faith in the Ragged Edge name and feel that both of our skills and good natures were taken advantage of. If in fact buggies are being sold, I would hope that Ragged Edge would make good on at least some of its promises and pay at least part of the monies owing to us.

Chapter 1.

In 1998 I bought a FJ40, my first 4x4. By 1999 it was spring-over reverse shackle, 39.5 boggers, V8 diesel, in my eyes awesome (Completely useless in actual fact but it looked cool).

In 2000 I left Melb to set up my own Fitness Centre in a small town called Maffra (pop 5,000). I just wanted to be close to the bush and take the truck out. I waited for a Tuff Truck to come to Vic but it never happened.

In 2003 I had the idea that there must be other people who wanted to drive full on custom Tuff Trucks and the concept of a ‘drive experience’ business began. I approached a friend who had some coin and put it to him. He agreed to finance the first three 4x4’s and in 2004 buggies where ordered. The plan was to set up the business in ‘Briagalong’ which is a small country town just out of Dargo which is a popular 4x4 hang-out. The plan was I’d work the Gym Mon-Thu and the trucks weekends. Nothing big, similar to what I have in Werribee now.

I got a property, got the council on side and was all set to go. Then we had an objection from a neighbour. The issue went to a council meeting where the neighbour cranked up the video player to 10 and had the sound of Pete’s truck bellowing till the building shook. The issue was I didn’t have a vehicle finished: I’d insisted they be built under 96DB so the same as a car. Anyway that argument lasted months but without a 4x4 to dispute the claim it fell over. I tried a new location at a few locations, same thing, each attempt costing $10,000+. The drought hit then and I was working 60 hours to keep the gym open and pay for the 4x4s business. In 2006 I got the first buggy back that I mentioned before. It was finally the death blow for the business; the second time I took it out the air filter got sucked through the throttle body and jammed the throttle at full noise. If a customer was driving someone could easily have been killed.

I gave up at that point; the friend who lent me the coin wouldn’t pay anymore and I still owed Glenn Dobbin for the diffs so I went back to the gym working 60 hrs a week to try and get the debts paid off. I couldn’t afford to fix the stuffed buggy so it sat at a workshop in Melb for several months.

Some friends prompted me to have another go so I thought this time I need to do it better so I hired a Marketing Manager; she had all the credentials – worked in F1, understood marketing which I new was my downfall: I could never approach Redbull and be taken seriously. I took her to Tuff Truck 2006 and introduced her to a few of the boys I knew. She came back really excited about the sport so I went back to the gym stopped renting my house, started doing 25 hrs of personal training plus another 40 and slept in a swag under my office desk at the gym for 14 months while she did her thing for Ragged Edge in Melb talking to all the companies I’ve mentioned earlier. “yeah we’d love to be involved; when you’re having you first comp let us know.” Marketing people are great at spending money so I was paying for design work and websites and merchandise so we could make this sport exist at its potential. All out of my pocket.

I went up to Sydney and met up with a bunch of the guys in the scene; Pete, Glenn, Garth, Sam K and told them what I was doing which is very similar to what I’ve outlined over the last few pages. It was here I met Matt Dunk.

wtf

shortyq wrote:wtf

I think this is a multi-part story. Be patient.

We all deserve to hear both sides of the story.

Over this time I tried to find a home for the Hire Drive biz but couldn’t get past any councils. We were dealing with Vic Tourism who suggested a motor cycle complex 1hr north of Melbourne. “They won’t stuff you around”. 2 months later after getting “yep, yep” got the nup: $20,000 right there: business was dead again.

Got the brainwave later that the only way to avoid council was go to an industrial indoor site and we looked at Port Melbourne the following week. I put my nuts on the line and signed the dotted line for $180,000 rent pa. I got some investors and a whole bunch of friends to put money up and I then went and saw Matt who agreed to build the trucks: the deal was a weekly wage and income from the trucks on an ongoing basis. Matt worked crazy hours to get the trucks ready and even moved to Melbourne were West and a few other guys jumped on board to build the trucks.

We were invited to do the Royal Melb Show because of the horse flu. One of my guys rolled Phil Noble’s truck in the rehearsals: $10,000 damage. That show coast me $30,000 and made me literally no bookings.

We worked like crazy to get the business open in November so we could get some of the Christmas Rush and make some income. The trucks were awesome; over budget but awesome. Unfortunately the building reno’s were also over budget as was the track costs and time was running out for the Christmas rush. We launched in Nov and 10 people showed up; seems the Marketing Manager made some promises she didn’t keep. So much for the ‘Christmas rush’. I sacked the marketing manager.

I shut the place down till Feb so we could get things sorted: finish the third car etc. With overheads of $35,000 per month that was a $100,000 decision. I knew I was going to run out of money as I hadn’t expected NO income before Christmas so I organized a broker to refinance the yellow truck “shouldn’t be an issue”. He came back with a surprising “no”; never had issues with finance before.

Matt came and saw me in Jan and said he’d like to have his investment in the trucks as a lump sum; I said I didn’t have the money. I was going backwards $1,000 a day.

I went and saw a bank in Jan who agreed to refinance the whole business. This got me room to move so we went back to work. End of Feb comes and “we can’t give you the $$$ because you have a history of being declined”. Seems the broker went to every bank in the country and said “does anyone want to finance a $100,000 yellow 4x4?” No business model so of course they say no. Suddenly I have a history of being declined from every bank in the country.

We launched in Feb again: ask me how I leant radio, newspapers; magazines don’t work for our sport….

We went to the Wandin field day that month too: I sold two caps and then one of my guys drove the uninsured semi we hired into a bridge and did $10,000 damage.

With West’s’ help we started getting bookings: $5,000 the first month, $7k, $13k, by May we made $23K in a month. My overheads were still way more than that and I was behind in the rent so I went back to a bank and said can I refinance? They said yes. For the next four month I got an e-mail every week from the bank saying the money’s coming. The delay killed the business, West left for another job and I was set to close the doors when I met the guys from Werribee who offered me their location. We started in Nov 2008 and the business has slowly picked up since then. They know this full story and I wouldn’t be still going if not for them.

I’m still paying off debts from Port Melbourne; with the promise of funds coming I made decisions that ended up putting us in a much worse position. I’m now suing the bank in the Country Court for $2.3m but as you can see the damage is done.

I’ve sent Matt e-mails and he doesn’t reply; none of this is news to him and I’ve left messages on West’s’ phone: same deal. I know I owe Matt $$$, he knows I owe him $$$, now you all know I owe him $$$ but I need to get back to the business topic for a tic.

I’m still paying off all the crap that happened over the last 2 years. I think anyone would agree I’ve had a hard time of it. I’m back sleeping in my swag under the desk. I catch a train to Melbourne because my car’s broken and I sleep in a tent at a caravan park. I turnover $5,000+ for the weekend running two 4x4s with mates helping me out and then head home. The business is growing significantly and I believe will continue to do so. My overheads are way more than what I make as I’m still paying off past debts. What I’ve been working towards the last five months / five years is to get the business to where I can do what I’ve outlined in the last two pages. As ‘shortyq’ said this is a new industry, I’ve tried to make that work but it seems my pockets aren’t deep enough. I should have pulled the pin on the business ages ago but I thought it was worth getting to this point. Now there IS something valuable.

The financial return for someone coming into this is great now: I can say honestly and without reservation the hard work has been done.

I hope someone who hasn’t gone through the ringer like I have can really make this work. The possibilities that I’ve outlined in the last two pages are there for somebody to take. I’ve spent 5 years and $1.5m trying to make this work. After the last few hours I think maybe it’s time I passed the baton.

One more post Chris and you'll have a Biography that must be worth something! LoL

Hi Guys,

I think it’s time I introduced myself. I am the third side of the story. I am Jess and I have been working with Chris from the start and I can guarantee that everything that he has written is the absolute truth. Want to know how I can guarantee that? I’m the one behind the scenes that has to fix all the stuff-ups the marketing managers, booking agents, etc, make. I have been there through the highs and lows, good employee and bad employee, thick and thin and have stayed because I know Chris will get us through it.

Those of you that have lost faith in Ragged Edge in my opinion can go shove it because they don’t know half of what we have to go through just to get this business and this sport up and running. Chris has gone days without food because you demand payment. There is always someone demanding payment, too bad about those who actually do the hard yards. I too have been going without pay so that others could get their wages because they were seen as priority, which I get. No trucks, No business, right? Did something ever occur to you? These ‘excuses’ you think Chris makes, did you ever think that if you supported one of them you would have you’re money by now.

Anyone who has started their own business or even been involved in the process should know that there are risks. The difference between Chris and the rest of them is that Chris didn’t just give up; he didn’t just pull the pin like so many do. He kept trying for a solution to get the money back to all those owed and quite frankly Matt I think you may have ruined his and our chances. You go on about how you’re owed so much money but if the business goes under how do you plan on getting that money back? One would think you would be pushing for a solution, not condemning it.

Matt you created some awesome buggies. Don’t get me wrong we are very thankful for your help but you have added to our issues. The buggies just weren’t strong enough and we have spent a lot of time and money fixing those problems which just sets us back further.

This isn’t just about Chris, there are a whole bunch of us, (which really don’t have much to do with the sport) that are fighting for all of you. Fighting for recognition and fighting to get this sport going. We have all invested in this idea, we are all in this together yet us small country town people are the only ones doing our bit. So tell me again fellas, why should a bunch of people that don’t even race, some never ever been in a truck, fight for a cause that not even you are fighting for.

THESE IDEAS ARE NOT SCAMS! These are solutions to all the fuck ups and the stuffing around that we have been through. These are solutions that are going to get your average person who has no idea involved in the sport.

The get paid to rock race is the idea most likely to succeed yet and Chris and I are both spewing that it wasn’t thought of earlier. It has the potential to make so much / be so much! Through our bad experiences we know what works and what doesn’t so marketing and exposure isn’t as much of an issue as it once was. Plus it would be one hell of a job for the Owner/Driver.

This wasn’t about the money this was about the love of the sport and making it known nation wide. People like Danny from Solid have a fantastic product but how do they get it out there if there is no exposure, hence the Comp. We are running the Comp so your average joe who knows nothing about 4x4 will come along and see what these amazing vehicles are capable of and get interested and purchase YOUR products.

We have been climbing Mt Everest in a head wind for so long now. We have slipped and fallen and had to start all over again. We thought that we were FINALLY getting over the hump with the Rock Race idea. The answer to all our problems but again we are screwed over. I think I should just get used to people disappointing me.

We have worked out butts off to get this sport recognised so that all of you have somewhere to go but we just keep getting screwed over. All we have ever heard is “what’s in it for me”, never once has Chris said anything like that. He has made sacrifices so many of you couldn’t even dream of for this sport and like Chris I am beginning to think why should we bother going through all these hardships for a bunch of people that don’t appreciate it.

Chris is now weighing up whether he continues. Personally I can't see why he should when he's got no one backing him up. It’s in your hands now guys. We can keep going ahead with the Rock Racing idea and the Outlaws Comp or pull the pin altogether. Honestly I’m a bit over being underappreciated but if you want this to go ahead we need your support.

Interesting read.

As a previous owner of a business that cost me a lot of $$$ for no returns I must say your story is not an uncommon one.
Having seen many people get sucked into such schemes over the years I do have to ask a few questions.

1 - Am I correct in understanding that you want people to buy into a business model that has cost you $1.5million to come up with and as yet has been unable to even allow you to square up with the people you owe money to as a result? So in effect you are asking people to prop you up for a bit longer ?

2 - How do you come up with a proposed income of $100k per year for you r guys who buy a truck off you? Looking at the booking figures etc on your website they would need to be fully booked from day 1 to get there.

3 - How do you sit with insurance? I looked into a similar business several years ago and it was going to cost over $30k a year in insurance alone, do these cost come out of the forecast $100k income?

4 - As you have identified leasing of a venue is an issue and not cheap, does this come out of the forecast $100k? or are you supplying them with the $99k investment ?

As I said it is quite interesting to read all these great plans and promises on a chat forum, also very interesting you forgot to mention the $1.5 million in debt your company, which you wish to sell "franchises of" has and is still trying to pay back ... small oversight I guess.
I am not saying it is a bad idea, I am just suggesting that maybe you might like to put up your figures of how this scheme is going to fulfill the sort of "forecast" figures you are proposing, with some tangible $$$ amounts.

For example, if the truck are costing over $100k why are you selling them for $99k with $100k income potential? Guessing there is more to the pyramid than what we are seeing / being told.

BUT all that being said, Good on you for giving it a go and laying all this out for people to see, read and comment on, that in itself is a different approach, I hope it pays off for you, great to see an Aussie guy make good and pay back his debt rather than fold and walk.

The problems of cash flow etc seem to be from poor management.

Regardless of whether the buggies have held up to be strong enough Matt and West should still be paid for the 12 hour days there were putting in the beginning. I know that West did not leave for another job, he had to leave as he had not been paid in several months.

And Jess, I'm sure that if you were still working there for nothing you would have left too.

The issue is not about whether the buggies were strong enough or whether it will succeed this time, it is about making good on promises made to people a long time ago. Both Matt, West and others have suffered further due their lost income and it's a huge flow on effect. The only decent thing to do before spening money on new ventures, stronger buggies, merchandise etc is to fulfill the obligation to pay the worker that had faith and dedication in the first place. Without them there would be no Ragged Edge no to expand!!

Bad debt is an issue that will plague any business.
The 4x4 scene is actually quite small, and word gets around quickly....and just look at how many 4x4 shops etc have gone under through various issues of management/product or demand.

You guys have a great idea/concept.
BUT, it will never work if you don't make an effort to pay off bad debts within the industry/scene.

Bank debt is totally different. As much as you need them, they will not support your product/concept.
How can you expect guys like Matt or West etc to support you.....in the hope of finally one day, years later, getting paid what they are owed from 2yrs ago. If these guys were paid, or were being paid off......I'm sure they would support you 100%, as they would obviously be alot happier to support the business.

One of the comments about upgrading what was built costing you more money etc.........that's business.........there are always upgrades needed that you didn't foresee. I'm a business owner myself, and I'm constantly struggling with the upgrades required, as you often initially invest in what you think is required, not what might be required in the future.
These current buggies have obviously needed upgrading without a doubt. But that wouldn't be the fault of the builder, thats the fault of the business operator not seeing the future requirements and putting up enough funds to make them bullet proof from the start....as i'm sure its more components than structure.

The 4x4 scene is a hard nut to crack, and you've had a good go at it.
From what I read, pay off some debt, and you will have a good product to market.
No investor is going to put up the money without looking into the history of the business, and belive me, they will find the hidden debts......they are rich for a reason....they don't invest in stuff to lose money.

my 2c

Ragged Edge 4x4 Werribee wrote:Take the Toys merchandise idea (have you seen the rows and rows of 4x4’s in toy shops!) You need a driver who can sit and talk with kids at a toy shop for two hours as a sponsorship deal, do an interview for TV then go to lunch with a bunch of ‘suits’ before taking them for a spin. Racing Drivers spend a lot less time ‘driving’ and a lot more time ‘working’ than people think.

Interesting idea. Where do you think the mix of revenue will come from? ie percentage of ticket sales for competitors, toys/merchandising, direct sponsorship, vehicle rentals? Would vehicle rentals be the biggest earner or would it be the toys/merchandise idea you've mentioned? Or something else?

This is a really great idea, and I hope you can make it work. This type of exposure would go miles in the promotion of our support and that we are not all hoons. The flow-on business would also be a wonderful thing and breaking 4WDing into professional sport would be wonderful. You have a massive challenge ahead of you, but a good plan, plenty of energy and if you get a Redbull or Monster type company interested everyone will be taking credit for the idea.

Though the fact that you are expecting support for any idea from the OL peanut gallery is a little bit of stretch, but also I hope behind the scene you are getting what you want via PM's.

I don't have the capital or cash to help you on this one, but hope this thread isn't where this idea ends.

- David.

still is very interesting

well this sounds like a fantastic idea that should of worked 3 years ago when you originally pitched it, but it hasnt!, it appears there might be a bit more to the story than is being told, it seems you have burnt bridges with the most important people of all required to get this off the ground and i wish you all the best in trying to mend them but i think you might be in for an up hill battle. it could possibly be time for a different approach or management. i personally hope this does take of but i cant see people forking out 100k for an unknown investment with an unknown future, which hasnt really taken of allready. having said that and seen whats happened with the werock series i would love to come over from the west to compete, its in its early stages here and we can learn from the mistakes that have been made. like i said earlier i wish you all the luck in this venture.

The idea works for off road rush.

I have nothing further to say at this time!

hey guys just thought i might add my 2 cents worth, i know the work that has been put into these cars and the promises i have heard, Matt has built some of the best and most competitive cars in oz(example Mals yellow bush rangie) and i have driven and tested cars he has built and they are fantastic! the comments that Chris business partner said about having problems with the buggies actually has nothing to do with Matts building but the product that Chris supplied! Mainly the diffs have been at fault.
Matt has asked me to not say exactly how much money is owed to him and many others but i feel you should all know that Ragged Edge will need to sell ALOT of cars to pay off his debts from his first adventure in port melbourne
i have spoken with Matt about Ragged Edge, and he asked me not to bother posting or personally attack Chris or Ragged Edge but I feel it is necessary for people to be informed about Ragged Edge and you can make your decision from there.

is there any 1 in this country that specialises
in rock crawlers ie frames,driveline etc.

shortyq wrote:is there any 1 in this country that specialises
in rock crawlers ie frames,driveline etc.

is that a trick question?

bazooked wrote:

shortyq wrote:is there any 1 in this country that specialises
in rock crawlers ie frames,driveline etc.

is that a trick question?

why would it be!

I don't believe the scene is big enough here in Oz for anyone to specialise in buggies alone. It isn't the states with a scene atleast 10 times ours with alot more financial support to back it up, to keep shops open that only specialise in buggies.

If your asking where to get a buggy built, then it has already been mentioned who to use earlier in this thread. Although Chris owes Matt money, he obviously still believes in his work.

It's a great idea, but as has been pointed out, it would be very hard to make it work here in Australia. Overheads are high, especially insurance, and the market probably isn't big enough.

This coupled with the bad debts that are going around would make it very hard for this business to get off its feet. What you really need is a massive amount of capital to open up one good running site that pays for itself and makes money. Once this has happened you're able to expand it to other states. At present this does not seem to be the case.

The idea of owning a car to compete in and rent out for hire is all well and good as an idea to cover costs of motorsport and have a tax write off for the business, but from a practical point of view there are issues with it. Competition by nature is hard on the vehicles, what happens if you break your truck at an event? Does that mean you lose a week's worth of income while you're waiting for parts to repair it? That will have an impact on your competitiveness at events. Alternatively what happens if a customer breaks your vehicle Friday before an event? You're out of that event for the weekend and your sponsors lose their exposure. I'm assuming they would be sponsoring you predominantly for competition events over the every day hire driving.

As I said in the beginning, it's a great idea and if you can find a way to make it work that would be awesome for you and all involved. It's even an idea that would interest me if it were proven, but I'm not at a stage where I can see it's a proven working model, and I'm not one to take massive financial risks like that.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do with it. I'll be keeping one eye on it from a distance.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, however:

Ragged edge is only open on weekends and public holidays.
Most comps are on weekends and public holidays.

Can't see how this could work. Every comp you compete in would mean the vehicle would be losing money?

BOO FARKEN HOO (very one sided story)

Cheezy4x4 wrote:BOO FARKEN HOO (very one sided story)

do tell! its good to air out dirty laundry for evryones piece of mind