Outer Limits 4x4 Board

dr who? wrote:what about the honda motors? they came with a nice auto, could be fun with the vtec

ive been thinking of a buggy like this for a while and was reckoning that a honda vtec+auto+welded diff +4.88 bundy axles + 35's would be fun

And with the honda engine you can get reverse rotation witch is what you would need, that way the gearbox is more central if rear engine and no need to rotate the diffs.

a swift engine is a mc engine

Do the holden cruze have a solid axle's front and rear? Could be a good basis just need a transfer. The 1.5lt is the same as 05 onwards swift plus lower geared auto.

Axles might be too small / weak for 35's tho?

SCANAS wrote:a swift engine is a mc engine

Do the holden cruze have a solid axle's front and rear? Could be a good basis just need a transfer. The 1.5lt is the same as 05 onwards swift plus lower geared auto.

Axles might be too small / weak for 35's tho?

you can't possibly actually think that they have solid axle ANYTHING

EDIT: I completely forgot about the earlier holden cruze's, was thinking of the new sedan.
But I'm still sure they'll only have solid rear at most, but still likely IFS all round?

What would be wrong with IFS anyway?

As far as strength goes, sure a spinning 35 is heavy and sends a shock through the axle when it hits the ground, but if the rest of the vehicle is very lightweight then the axle is less stressed isn't it?

Yeah the 05 model has solid rear I just looked one I have in stock....

craz3d wrote:likely IFS all round?

actually rotation direction is something i havn't thought about. A standard motor runs clockwise when viewed from the front doesn't it.

so a FWD motor is going to run clockwise when viewed from which side of the car as standard? or is there no standard orientation for FWD cars? i.e. do most of them run the "front" with water pump and cam belt on the left or right side of the car.

If the Honda motor runs the other way (bizarre if it does - why?) wouldn't they correct that in the gearbox anyways to standardize it or do they simply turn the entire motor and gearbox assembly 180 degrees in the engine bay by comparison to every other car out there?

rockcrawler31 wrote:actually rotation direction is something i havn't thought about. A standard motor runs clockwise when viewed from the front doesn't it.

If there's an issue you could just run the diffs upside down, either the diffs at the axles or the centre diff. Just make sure it gets oil properly when running.

Alternatively when you mount the engine/gearbox, which you are effectively mounting sideways compared to the original set-up, just put it left-right or right-left depending on which way you need it to be rotating.

chimpboy wrote:

rockcrawler31 wrote:actually rotation direction is something i havn't thought about. A standard motor runs clockwise when viewed from the front doesn't it.

If there's an issue you could just run the diffs upside down, either the diffs at the axles or the centre diff. Just make sure it gets oil properly when running.

Alternatively when you mount the engine/gearbox, which you are effectively mounting sideways compared to the original set-up, just put it left-right or right-left depending on which way you need it to be rotating.

If you were using the original diff outputs from the FWD straight to the diffs it would have to be longitudinal so in that instance you would have to get the rotation right or flip the diffs. But yeah i guess if you went the extra centre diff you could just run it east/west or west/east as you needed it.

Tiny wrote:

80's_delirious wrote:A motor cycle engine would leave you without reverse, this would be a big disadvantage in a lot of situations. Backing down a tricky rocky incline for another shot at it would be interesting with no reverse, or backing off a rock or out of a hole?

I saw an article on an offroad racer that was built using a big moto engine and gearbox, cbr1100 or something similar but with no reverse, that problem was solved by using a starter motor that ran onto the chain, he reckoned it worked great

seen that heaps in those little cars that run with the V8s? champ cars? little baby cars, the rear rotors are notched and starter motors allow them to go in reverse!!!

AFeral wrote:Could use the engine and gearbox from a small front wheel drive car. Weld the diff would give you low gearing with the engine longways the orginal left and right drive shaft could be use for front and rear.

this might give you some ideas

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ight=kid+buggy

cant view link???

how would you go about attaching a driveshaft flange to the input of a hilux transfer? If you unbolted the transfer straight off the gearbox of a hilux, is there a seal on the input shaft to the transfer to keep the oil in or does it rely on the seal on the gearbox side?

does the input to hilux tcase have a shaft coming out that goes into the gearbox or is it a female spline that the gearbox output shaft fits into?

Either way, is there any reason you couldn't weld to either of them to fit a flange?

rockcrawler31 wrote:

chimpboy wrote:

rockcrawler31 wrote:actually rotation direction is something i havn't thought about. A standard motor runs clockwise when viewed from the front doesn't it.

If there's an issue you could just run the diffs upside down, either the diffs at the axles or the centre diff. Just make sure it gets oil properly when running.

Alternatively when you mount the engine/gearbox, which you are effectively mounting sideways compared to the original set-up, just put it left-right or right-left depending on which way you need it to be rotating.

If you were using the original diff outputs from the FWD straight to the diffs it would have to be longitudinal so in that instance you would have to get the rotation right or flip the diffs. But yeah i guess if you went the extra centre diff you could just run it east/west or west/east as you needed it.

huh. i think your overthinking this.

even mounted longditudinally, you have two options for orientation (harmonic balancer pointing forward or backwards). this way mount it so the direction of rotation is in your preferred direction...

bad_religion_au wrote:
huh. i think your overthinking this.

even mounted longditudinally, you have two options for orientation (harmonic balancer pointing forward or backwards). this way mount it so the direction of rotation is in your preferred direction...

Having never really looked at a FWD engine/gearbox combo i'm working on the assumption that the outputs for the CV's to the wheels are at one end of the assembly. which would mean that unless the engine is dead centre in the middle of the buggy i will only be able to orientate it one way to have the outputs as close to centre as possible otherwise one of the driveshafts will end up being incredibly short.

But you're right it all goes out the window if i'm using a centre diff or transfer case since i just turn it the way i need it.

rockcrawler31 wrote:

bad_religion_au wrote:
huh. i think your overthinking this.

even mounted longditudinally, you have two options for orientation (harmonic balancer pointing forward or backwards). this way mount it so the direction of rotation is in your preferred direction...

Having never really looked at a FWD engine/gearbox combo i'm working on the assumption that the outputs for the CV's to the wheels are at one end of the assembly. which would mean that unless the engine is dead centre in the middle of the buggy i will only be able to orientate it one way to have the outputs as close to centre as possible otherwise one of the driveshafts will end up being incredibly short.

But you're right it all goes out the window if i'm using a centre diff or transfer case since i just turn it the way i need it.

reason i say your overthinking it is because it works. it's been done plenty of times, without the extra transfer case/centre diff.

it's a buggy, no reason you can't move the engine forward a tad, rear axle back if that's the only way it'll fit.

Firstly I dont know much about this stuff but was thinking.

If you were running a sideways mounted MC engine and left its G box attached and ran a drive shaft from the front sproket to a detached gearbox like a sierra then transfer like a sierra.

This would be light weight and you would get the reduction from the mc g box as well, eg use 1st.

Then when you want a higher speed for getting about you change up to 3rd or 4th or what ever on the bike box and run in a nice high range. using the sierra g box for your normal driving gear changes.

Im not sure on ratios for bikes but this would give you
bike box reduction
sierra gbox slight reduction
transfer reduction
diff reduction

surely it would crawl slow as hell if you wanted

so the idea would be you leave the bike box alone once your in the ratio band you want then if your moving on, click click click and high range and your away???


or i could be being a buggy noob

Search for the guys in the states putting bike motors in their Samurais...

Bike motor/gearbox + Samurai gearbox + transfer case = a gear for every occasion!

Yeah, don't over think it. I'd go with a transaxle and keep it simple.

Don't worry about running the extra transfer case in there. You'll get your reduction out of the diff and fed into your front and rear diffs you'll have plenty of reduction for most things. You won't have as big a spread of gearing, but if it's a purpose built buggy you shouldn't need it.

Front wheel drive zook stuff isnt to bad . Weighs bugger all ,

I have a suzuki cino 1 ltr Auto , 3 cyl waiting for a frame to live in,
once i pull my finger out . transaxle diff centre planaterys will be welded up , single shaft running to stock zook transfer , then to a hilux front
and a hilux centred (four wheeled chain driven ,walking beam setup) shhhh .


Heres Red zooks, would say its the lightest on the forum ,
Its a Trick little buggy ,
I likey



His biuld thread buggy starts around page 25 i think ,
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic22277-0-asc-0.php


Hypo also has a great zook buggy coming together ,

Dozoor wrote:Front wheel drive zook stuff isnt to bad . Weighs bugger all ,

I have a suzuki cino 1 ltr Auto , 3 cyl waiting for a frame to live in,
once i pull my finger out . transaxle diff centre planaterys will be welded up , single shaft running to stock zook transfer , then to a hilux front
and a hilux centred (four wheeled chain driven ,walking beam setup) shhhh .


Heres Red zooks, would say its the lightest on the forum ,
Its a Trick little buggy ,
I likey


His biuld thread buggy starts around page 25 i think ,
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic22277-0-asc-0.php


Hypo also has a great zook buggy coming together ,

thanks for the links Dozoor. I liked both of their threads. Red zooks is probably closest to what i would like to try and acheive. I guess the limiting factor to size is my own fat arse that will have to sit in it. I also wouldn't mind building it as a side by side so i can teach the missus to wheel too.

Dozoor wrote:Front wheel drive zook stuff isnt to bad . Weighs bugger all ,

I have a suzuki cino 1 ltr Auto , 3 cyl waiting for a frame to live in,
once i pull my finger out . transaxle diff centre planaterys will be welded up , single shaft running to stock zook transfer , then to a hilux front
and a hilux centred (four wheeled chain driven ,walking beam setup) :P shhhh .


Heres Red zooks, would say its the lightest on the forum ,
Its a Trick little buggy ,
I likey :)



His biuld thread buggy starts around page 25 i think ,
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic22277-0-asc-0.php


Hypo also has a great zook buggy coming together ,

conversion kits are available for "busa" engines to cino.

I have also thought about doin the MC engine for a small buggy for my son. I have an engine already. Stock 110kw ant 100Nm, 10500rpm max power and 11500 red line. Reverse could be a bit tricky though. Trans axle would be the easiest though. Servicar diffs for the old trikes had a electric motor and ring gear, I'm sure these were pre WWII made.

bj on roids wrote:

AFeral wrote:Could use the engine and gearbox from a small front wheel drive car. Weld the diff would give you low gearing with the engine longways the orginal left and right drive shaft could be use for front and rear.

this might give you some ideas

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ight=kid+buggy

cant view link???

Try this

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=633445

I thought about the lack of reverse for bike motors before,
you can buy a transfer case in the states that has reverse in the case.

On the other hand I thought it would be quiet possible to biuld a forward reverse case from a zook transfer, you would lose the dual range ability
you would retain the three gear low set ,
, machine the teeth from the high cluster gear and to accept a 60 ansi
sproket.
machine the high output gear to exept another sproket,and a chain .

In low range position it runs the three gear set low ,in high range postion it will run thru the chain set giving you a reverse rotation at the outputs. It should be possible
(ps don,t worry about chain strength a 60 ansi standard has a 4850kg breaking strain )

sounds easy

Dozoor wrote:I thought about the lack of reverse for bike motors before,
you can buy a transfer case in the states that has reverse in the case.

On the other hand I thought it would be quiet possible to biuld a forward reverse case from a zook transfer, you would lose the dual range ability
you would retain the three gear low set , machine the input to accept
a ansi 60 sproket , machine the teeth from the high cluster gear,
machine the high output gear to exept another sproket,and a chain .

In low range position it runs the three gear set low ,in high range postion it will run thru the chain set giving you a reverse rotation at the outputs. It should be possible
(ps don,t worry about chain strength a 60 ansi standard has a 4850kg breaking strain )

sounds easy

lol, sounds like alot of work to reinvent the wheel IMO.

Had to edit that m had it running the wrong way !

Bad-religion wrote:lol, sounds like alot of work to reinvent the wheel IMO.

Yep

Dozoor wrote:Had to edit that m had it running the wrong way !

Bad-religion wrote:lol, sounds like alot of work to reinvent the wheel IMO.

Yep :)

Could be done with a lay shaft and 2 dog clutches too.

there is a sweet one on OFN - even has a honda motor

rockcrawler31 wrote:The V-twin MC engine gets reasonable torque for what it is. 98NM at 6000RPM standard with no tweaks to motor.

Don't assume you need a V-twin to get a MC engine with torque. My ZRX 1200 has 125NM of torque and 138HP at the rear wheel. If you find a straight four that is out of a big naked bike or tourer, they will have plenty of grunt and you could possibly get one with fuel injection as well.

How about a motorbike engine, with the output feeding into a sideways mounted datto 120y independent diff. The diff output shafts could then travel to solid(or otherwise) Axels front and rear.
That's bulk reduction gearing. (moto box + datto diff + final diffs).
should drive up a wall.

The datto diff mounted sideways would be like the fwd transaxle.
Should be cheap and light, although without geared reverse.
The motorbike countershaft could either be chain drive or shaft drive to the datto pinion, If chain drive then any gearing ratio you desire could be yours,opening up a world of orientation and ratio possibilitys.

Craig