Outer Limits 4x4 Board

beinthemud wrote:

scuba steve 22 wrote: (sarcasm)

i ticked auto too. not that i drive anything special, i just like the control at low speeds

cheers steve[/quote


Thanks Scuba


Here you go macca

thanks mate, crystal clear now

rogerworkman wrote:u must drive a auto

you must drive a lada

rogerworkman wrote:u must drive a auto

Gee, you really can't get much right, can you? Three cars, three manuals.

You know, you really should try reading a little more. This forum is full of excellent information, and I promise you that you really will learn a few things.

For instance, if you care to scroll back up the page a little, you'll find a post I made in this thread. If you had read it, you might've learned something.

Last weekend I got to drive a new td Auto Mitsubishi Challenger along a couple of tracks in the Victoria High Country.

I had some doubts about how it would go for engine braking, and discovered it was better than I expected - about what my manual petrol shorty was like before the crawler gears.

Another member on the trip had a td auto Paj with crawler gears, and, in low 1st, he was applying throttle down some hills - as I was in my shorty with crawlers.

Engine braking was the last question mark I had about autos off-road. Not any more. I'll be looking for a diesel auto for my next 4wd.

sorry scotty thats made it heaps better when u blew it up then

manual for me.i like to drive my vehicles as well as steer them and i tend to get bored driving autos on the road,although i have never wheeled an auto offroad, i have driven way too many underpowered road automatics over the years , but could consider an auto truck if the grunt was there.(definitly not the lux...lol) awsome on the beach so im told and arent most comp/winch trucks running autos these days?

rogerworkman wrote:sorry scotty thats made it heaps better when u blew it up then

x2 you should do that with all your posts man.

beinthemud wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:Fair enough, the sarcasm wasn't clear in your post.

Steve.

Ok Fair enough ,How do I show Sarcasm for future reference as I prefer not to cause Offence

You need to use the sarcasm code [sarcasm] you fcuking retard [/sarcasm].

rogerworkman wrote:u must drive a auto

That's funny, my name's Roger too.

Two Roger's don't make a right HaHaHaHa!






For an offroad vehicle, auto all the way baby. Manuals definitely have their place and that's totally cool if you prefer them, but everything else being equal, autos rule.

rogerworkman wrote:autos are for amuptees and people who carnt drive

And the supporting evidence is oops none there.

I currently drive and auto 4x4 after owning 4 manual 4x4s before and i love the auto now wouldnt go back i only use my car for offroad and its great and excels at rock work big holes and and hill climbs I do maunal shift everywhere i go in it but thats jus because the tb42 needs some loving to ger her moving.

Look at the amount of comp 4x4s that run auto.

I drove a track last week that I simply would not even think about doing in an auto, gravel surface, rutted and very very steep descent, low 1st was too fast for it and I had to apply brakes regularly on the way down.

In the same week I saw an auto climb a sand dune that most manuals would not do. In fact the only vehicles to climb this dune were big petrol engined autos.

There is no definate must have, but the only place I have seen an auto drive that my manual couldn't was sand dunes, and you get over driving them pretty quickly anyway

Cheers

v840 wrote:

rogerworkman wrote:u must drive a auto

That's funny, my name's Roger too.

Two Roger's don't make a right HaHaHaHa!

Especially when they're rogering boggeds sister

Struth wrote:I drove a track last week that I simply would not even think about doing in an auto, gravel surface, rutted and very very steep descent, low 1st was too fast for it and I had to apply brakes regularly on the way down.

Cheers

Been in an auto with crawler gears?

I've driven a 4 speed auto vitara with 4:1 gears in the transfer (otherwise stock) and 31" tyres and low 1st was too low for most descents - it was so slow it was boring. That was with no fancy lockup switches on the converter, and with tyres 20% taller than stock. Honestly - the owner almost never used low 1st for descents. With gearing, there's so much drag in the converter with the engine at idle they engine brake like a fiend.

If you were applying the brakes in a manual to control speed then you might as well be in an auto- it would make no difference.

An interesting note is that as suzuki owners we stuff with gearing all the time - there's barely a car in our club with standard gearing. Getting the gearing right for your use and tyre size is important with an auto or a manual, however, to approach the drivability of an auto with a manual you need twice the numerical reduction, which might not be practical.

Steve.

Love this kind of chat!
It's a bit like the Nissan verses Toyota saga.

I have owned both Auto and Manual - un-modified gears and yes stock standard off the show room floor Manuals have better Low range down hill decent, most Modern Autos with down hill decent use a form of anti-lock braking so I have been told so they preform ok.
just spent a week on Fraser driving in some very soft sand, last few times I did this in my Pajero and Prado Autos I ended up over heating the Auto, mid you both had smaller motors than my current 4.2L TD 78 Series so who knows.

Gwagensteve wrote:

Struth wrote:I drove a track last week that I simply would not even think about doing in an auto, gravel surface, rutted and very very steep descent, low 1st was too fast for it and I had to apply brakes regularly on the way down.

Cheers

Been in an auto with crawler gears? No

I've driven a 4 speed auto vitara with 4:1 gears in the transfer (otherwise stock) and 31" tyres and low 1st was too low for most descents - it was so slow it was boring. That was with no fancy lockup switches on the converter, and with tyres 20% taller than stock. Honestly - the owner almost never used low 1st for descents. With gearing, there's so much drag in the converter with the engine at idle they engine brake like a fiend.

If you were applying the brakes in a manual to control speed then you might as well be in an auto- it would make no difference.

I disagree, I could come off the brakes in the manual and let the gearing do the work, application of the brakes was to slow down occasionaly to a safe crawl speed, then apply again as the crawl speed slowly increased.

An interesting note is that as suzuki owners we stuff with gearing all the time - there's barely a car in our club with standard gearing. Getting the gearing right for your use and tyre size is important with an auto or a manual, however, to approach the drivability of an auto with a manual you need twice the numerical reduction, which might not be practical.

Agree, we all run 4:88s to make 35s more driveable, it is a good gear ratio for most work we do. On this particular descent one member had both transfers engaged to slow the vehicle to a comfortable speed. Like really low gearing, not practical for everyone.

Steve.

Cheers

Everyone is joining in, so here i go.

I LIKE BOTH, BUT the ultimate is a 6 speed AUTO. 4 speed auto's are basically a 3 speed with an overdrive, which means huge gaps between gears. (1st gear is too high) I have also blown up a TB45 Patrol auto with the addition of a turbo.

In my opinion i would go for a 5 speed manual over a 4 speed Auto, but if i could have a ZF 6HP26 (6 speed ford falcon trans) or 6L80 (V8 holden 6 speed trans), i'd have the 6 speed auto any day of the week.

Auto's are great - You get full throttle gear changes. (Turbocharged Petrols - means no loss of boost)

Take a 6 speed auto XR6 Turbo for a spin.!! You wont be able to wipe the smile from your face. TRULY A GREAT TRANS>.

_

macca81 wrote:

beinthemud wrote:

scuba steve 22 wrote: (sarcasm)

i ticked auto too. not that i drive anything special, i just like the control at low speeds

cheers steve[/quote


Thanks Scuba


Here you go macca

thanks mate, crystal clear now

Great to see your Passion for Autos macca [nosarcasm]

beinthemud wrote:

Great to see your Passion for Autos macca [nosarcasm]

its true, 2 years ago i would never have imagined ever wanting an auto for ANYTHING! i loved driving a manual onroad, and i loved being able to stick my patrol in gear and put the hand throttle on and just drive, knowing that i could choose what gear i needed. loved idling down hills knowing it wouldnt run away on me too.

then i read a thread on here about the auto vs manual debate (the one i linked to earlier), this came up at the same time i was in the market for a new vehicle.

when i test drove my current 4wd, i didnt know it was an auto until i jumped into the driver seat for a test drive, and i was dubious... next cpl of days i thought about the whole auto thing (it was the only thing holding me back from buying there and then), in the end, i took the jump...

never looked back since!

its strange to start with, going offroad i wondered what all the fuss was about, but then i started actually thinking about how an auto worked and taught myself to left foot brake. it takes longer to learn how to drive an auto PROPERLY than most people think, id even say its harder to learn than a manual (shifting gears is easy, using the torque converter to the best of its ability takes a lot more practice).

its only downfall is engine braking, but again, a bit of practice and i have no problems really.

if anyone says that autos are shit, i challenge them to spend some time driving one...

I disagree raptorthumper. IMHO in a properly geared and appropriately powerful 4WD, a 6 speed auto is an unnecessary complication.

I'm talking enthusiast use here, not new-car-owner malling.

6 speed autos typically have a double overdrive to allow VERY low rev cruising for emissions. They often have a low first gear too, but that is for emissions too in a funny sort of way - it means acceptable acceleration off the line with small throttle openings. In case anyone was wondering, 99% of the new technology in cars these days is there to lower emissions.

I've driven BM's with 5 speed autos and my Dad's Touareg has a 6 speed auto. It's a massive PITA. It has 400Nm, but the auto is convinced the motor has 1/2 that so it's forever shuffling up and down through eleventy gears on a winding road. Funnily enough, put it is S mode (sport) and it will never engage 6th. As it's rarely in first either because it's uber low.... all of a sudden, the car is only effective in 4 gears.

BM's are the same, you never know what freakin gear it's in and it's always all over the place, shifting about twice as often as you would in a manual - they never let the motor sit into it's torque and pull - again, all in the name of emissions. that's because the shift strategies try to lock the converter as quickly as possible in every gear for maximum efficiency. Once the converter is locked, you get none of the torque multiplication of an auto, only the HP loss, and from an enthusiast perspective, (and especially offroad) that's dumb.

The whole idea of autos is that the converter makes each gear flexible by a ratio of around 2:1, a 4 speed auto has a huge range of possible gearing ratios to choose from from maximum slip (with maximum torque multiplication) to locked in each gear ( no torque multiplication) , and that's why you don't need as many ratios.

Apparently the 8 speed auto in the lexus is just ridiculous. in the IS-F it has about 4 ratios too many based on the reviews I've read.

Steve.

The german ZF trans in the Falcon is noted for getting the changes right in Drive, and regardless it will do exactly what you want it to do in sports mode.

1st gear of 4.17:1
6th gear of 0.69:1 Which is not ridiculously high. (Same as most 4 speed Autos)

my opinion: -->> I would love to have a 6 speed Auto in my Patrol.

In an Offroad buggy a 2 speed powerglide and reduction gears is all you need.

Gwagensteve wrote:I disagree raptorthumper. IMHO in a properly geared and appropriately powerful 4WD, a 6 speed auto is an unnecessary complication.

I'm talking enthusiast use here, not new-car-owner malling.

6 speed autos typically have a double overdrive to allow VERY low rev cruising for emissions. They often have a low first gear too, but that is for emissions too in a funny sort of way - it means acceptable acceleration off the line with small throttle openings. In case anyone was wondering, 99% of the new technology in cars these days is there to lower emissions.

I've driven BM's with 5 speed autos and my Dad's Touareg has a 6 speed auto. It's a massive PITA. It has 400Nm, but the auto is convinced the motor has 1/2 that so it's forever shuffling up and down through eleventy gears on a winding road. Funnily enough, put it is S mode (sport) and it will never engage 6th. As it's rarely in first either because it's uber low.... all of a sudden, the car is only effective in 4 gears.

BM's are the same, you never know what freakin gear it's in and it's always all over the place, shifting about twice as often as you would in a manual - they never let the motor sit into it's torque and pull - again, all in the name of emissions. that's because the shift strategies try to lock the converter as quickly as possible in every gear for maximum efficiency. Once the converter is locked, you get none of the torque multiplication of an auto, only the HP loss, and from an enthusiast perspective, (and especially offroad) that's dumb.

The whole idea of autos is that the converter makes each gear flexible by a ratio of around 2:1, a 4 speed auto has a huge range of possible gearing ratios to choose from from maximum slip (with maximum torque multiplication) to locked in each gear ( no torque multiplication) , and that's why you don't need as many ratios.

Apparently the 8 speed auto in the lexus is just ridiculous. in the IS-F it has about 4 ratios too many based on the reviews I've read.

Steve.

I have this problem with the 545RFE chrysler 5spd in the JK. The auto is 100% convinced the motor has no power (which is untrue, 130kw and 460NM with the bulk of it available from 1800rpm) and is constantly shifting. Squeezing the throttle should have it surge forward but instead it flicks down a ratio or two and revs harder actually making it go slower. It makes no sense.

Would love to get the transmission reprogrammed so it doesn't fook around like it does...issue with the 545RFE is exactly as you noted. It has 3 planetaries and its programming seems to have given it 8 forward gears and 2 reverse. I reckon I'd save at least 2L/100km around town if it didn't shift about as much.

Mind you I forgive its road sins when offroad as it is freaking magic. It is so much better at downhill braking than my 4.2D Patrol manual ever was. I still use the brakes to control downhill speed with the rear locker engaged just to be safe though. And driving up things...woah! Can go as fast or as slow as ya want its friggen AWESOME.

I Can't see myself ever having an Auto 4x4
I Like driving them on the road, Although Id like to try one and don't Realy have an issue with anyone driving them.
Except they look soft
In saying that Autos dont win many races

Auto's don't win many of which races? Manuals don't win many races either considering that most race cars now run sequential/paddle boxes that allow shifting without clutching.

I find automatics frustrating to drive on road - I've only had one auto road car (a Range rover) but I'm quite keen to own a DSG car, mostly because of the ability to fit in more shifts on challenging roads - as it is, on the roads I drive, my speed over the ground is limited by when I can fit in gearchanges.

The flexibility of each gear that is such a boon off road I find annoying on road - it mutes throttle response.
Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:Auto's don't win many of which races? Manuals don't win many races either considering that most race cars now run sequential/paddle boxes that allow shifting without clutching.

I find automatics frustrating to drive on road - I've only had one auto road car (a Range rover) but I'm quite keen to own a DSG car, mostly because of the ability to fit in more shifts on challenging roads - as it is, on the roads I drive, my speed over the ground is limited by when I can fit in gearchanges.

The flexibility of each gear that is such a boon off road I find annoying on road - it mutes throttle response.
Steve.

Had a VW Golf GTI with DSG (6spd wet pack clutch)

Was freaking awesome.

We tossed up between an R32 DSG Golf and the STi. The DSG was awesome, but the STi won out due to the lack of electronics controlling everything - we came from a very buggy Mini Cooper S, so we were scarred.

I don't believe DSG is suitable for off road use. It's hard enough modulating a converter off road, and that's a "passive" device. trying to drive through the clutch when the computer thinks you are trying to do something else would be impossible.

Steve.

much like Air Bags in a 4x4 - bad idea in my books,
Last thing I want happening when banging along a hard track is the darn thing to go off in my face!
Not that I have ever been told of it happening it's just I don't trust exploding things that much!

TroopiePete wrote:much like Air Bags in a 4x4 - bad idea in my books,
Last thing I want happening when banging along a hard track is the darn thing to go off in my face!
Not that I have ever been told of it happening it's just I don't trust exploding things that much!

what?? can you explain this analogy a bit for me please?

Gwagensteve wrote:We tossed up between an R32 DSG Golf and the STi. The DSG was awesome, but the STi won out due to the lack of electronics controlling everything - we came from a very buggy Mini Cooper S, so we were scarred.

I don't believe DSG is suitable for off road use. It's hard enough modulating a converter off road, and that's a "passive" device. trying to drive through the clutch when the computer thinks you are trying to do something else would be impossible.

Steve.

Nup, it'd be terrible unless you had manual over ride for the clutch control.

My DSG was actually really shit in traffic. Clunked, rough changes etc. Didn't like going slow at all. Really needed a constant action, not on/off throttle activity.

There's apparently a legendary video of Land Rover engineers trying to trigger the bags in rovers offroad. Apparently the abuse was amazing, but they didn't fire.

I'm not convinced airbags have ever fired in a case where the car wasn't damaged offroad. In any case, you can generally just pull the fuse to prevent them firing, a common jeep trick.

IMHO this isn't the same argument.

Airbags are a good idea for occupant safety regardless of where the collision occurrs. DSG might never be a good idea offroad.

Steve.

Just bought the wife a dsg VW Jetta TDi to replace a V8 Discovery Auto as the family run around. Didn't need 4 4WD wagons.

Awesome gearbox. Sports mode is all you need. Full manual is redundant in a road diesel.

LOCKEE wrote:Just bought the wife a dsg VW Jetta TDi to replace a V8 Discovery Auto as the family run around. Didn't need 4 4WD wagons.

Awesome gearbox. Sports mode is all you need. Full manual is redundant in a road diesel.

Sport mode in the petrol turbo GTI is unusable...hitting a man hole cover would bump my foot enough to depress the accelerator just enough to send the bloody thing into warp drive. I called it silly mode as it was only useful on a race track. I think i used it maybe 6 times in the 12 months I had the car.