Outer Limits 4x4 Board

rockcrawler31 wrote:

RED60 wrote:Straight 8, 2 stroke birdfrightner..... come on gentlemen... stop playin' with it.... Isuzu or similar straight turbo 6 with the gearbox that comes with them as a unit...also if you want to impress get it from a 4wd truck and swap the lot... you WILL have to go to discs unless you want your widow/kids to get the vehicle when you die, how do you think some drums that were flatout pulling up the original load will go with twice that, so probably the square of the load on them, wake up....... if you want more HP, up the boost and fuel.... it will do the job easily and relatively economically....

These are the drums that came with the truck designed to pull up 8 tonne. Drums are actually fine and pull up plenty of weight but suffer fade due to heat build up over PROLONGED braking. So therefore not so good in a race car but fine in a truck where it's pretty likely you'll have engine braking for prolonged descents. I don't mind the idea of discs, but if you can find a donor with a solid I beam axle with the same width, stub drop, and spring pad width and bolt pattern as the original 46 jelly bean rims then by all means let me know. I've driven air over hydraulic drum brakes that will put you through the windscreen, and there's still plenty of larger commercial vehicles still running drums.

I had thought of 4wd driving the front end but really, i'm not using it for that and it's extra unsprung weight, cost and complexity. What's wrong with jimmy diesels by the way? sound absolutely farking horn. But you're right, for parts availability and ease i think the jap option is the way to go.

But from what i've seen i'll be paying minimum 10 grand for a second hand runner donk/box combo of unknown quality.

I think you'll find that the original motor would have been flatout getting 8t gross to any real speed, while your possible modifications say to a modern 6 cyl turbo would be well capable of getting some real speed out of it. I think the original drum brakes would be well over their safe limit. Some modern drums would probably do the job tho as you suggest.
No, I dont know of anything with the axle you want, hence the 4wd suggestion. I appreciate you won't be wheeling it, but you will be driving it to 4wd functions/parks etc, I just thought 4wd would give it a more unique status. While the jimmy 2 strokes are horn they are also a little offensive on the ears... to get the best sound you nearly have to run them very lightly muffled. My concern was mainly for the general public who may have to put up with the noise on the way to the event... also while some birdfrightner may sound good when it drives by, sitting 2 metres away from it for say 4 hours to get to an event... I think it would soon wear thin..

Fair point about the brakes i guess.

The only real reason i'm keeping the drums is because i can't immediately see any disc or even modern drum axles that i bolt the original wheels to (which i'd really like to keep) Same goes for the rear end, i'll probably blow up the diff, which will mean trying to find a decent rear axle with the same bolt pattern.

I'll be going a radius arm and panhard front with airbags, so i've still got to figure out how mate the RA's to an I Beam with leaf tables.

Does anyone one here know of any instances where a laser cut bracket has been inserted in place of a drum to mount a caliper and disc on a heavier vehicle and gotten it past engineering?

anyone got any links to vids of some of these jap engines with a decent turbo and exhaust? i just want to hear what they sound like with a bit of work done.

Athol (engineer) at Cardiff does a lot of old vehicle certs, he would probably have plenty of good suggestions/ideas that simply make sense.

He's a member on here now, username is his name.

How much engine space is there. What about the big truck 4 cylinders TD with autos like the ones used in the rental trucks. A big block clevo on Gas would sound horn and do the job and may be cheaper than a diesel.

How important is fuel economy. I mean it is not a daily driver and a clevo on gas should be cheap enough to run and the money you will save over a diesel conversion.

Cris

There's heaps of height, but not a great deal of width available.

I've quoted around 10 grand for a late model second hand turbo diesel in the 6 liter range, so i reckon i could buy a lot of petrol/gas with that.

Exactly. Remember you'd have to use more than double the L/km on lpg before you start looking at the same running costs as a diesel.

Every now and then there's a guy that comes through work with a little tipper that is running a warm 350 on gas, which used to be in his FJ40 heheh.... Can hear it coming through the gate, man it sounds neat. He's a good 10t loaded and it doesn't worry it (gearing.) I haven't seen him since last year, if I do I'll ask him some more.

rockcrawler31 wrote:There's heaps of height, but not a great deal of width available.

I've quoted around 10 grand for a late model second hand turbo diesel in the 6 liter range, so i reckon i could buy a lot of petrol/gas with that.

someone mentioned 6mpg on petrol earlier which is $500 for a 1000km trip.

what kind of ecconomy would a jap diesel get?

1 problem with the 'it will cost less and i can buy alot of fuel for that' is that you dont want to find your self saying - far out i cant be bothered doing that trip as its gonna cost over a grand just in petty!

it doesnt matter if the money has been 'saved' earlier it still hurts later.

depends on your personal psychi as to wether thats worth taking into account. personally i would find myself using it less but horses for courses.

That diesel posted from ebay earlier mentioned it was new and might be a good option.

truck looks sweet as though

rockcrawler31 wrote:I've quoted around 10 grand for a late model second hand turbo diesel in the 6 liter range, so i reckon i could buy a lot of petrol/gas with that.

Not enough imho.

In the (dual fuel) Mav we did a central Aust trek, by my calculations on that one trip we forked around $1500 more on fuel than we would have in a diesel. It would be less of an issue in more metro driving where there's plenty of cheap gas but at the weight you'll be pushing around I think you'll find that $10k buys a lot less travel time than you'd expect.

Do your sums very carefully, imho trying to run that thing with a petrol engine will be a massive regret for you.

It's 100% dependent on fuel consumption, which is the hard issue because it's all guesswork as this is an unknown.

LPG is less than half the cost of diesel/petrol in most places I've fuelled up. I doubt this truck will be crossing deserts, so LPG is a viable option. 100% gas engine, no petrol.

My 4runner uses about 24L/100km of LPG towing a 1.8t van @ 100km/h all day, which equates to the running cost of something using 10-12L/100km on diesel. Show me a full size 4WD that can tow a full bodied van and use that much diesel? Even better, one that uses that much but has over 350rwhp to play with as well. Even if it existed, that's still only the SAME running costs and you're not saving any money.

Don't discount LPG just because a diesel may use less fuel, it depends how much less. I reckon a diesel will have to use closer to 1/3 the fuel for the running costs to make up for not having the coolest sounding and looking big block truck in Aus...

-Nemesis- wrote:It's 100% dependent on fuel consumption, which is the hard issue because it's all guesswork as this is an unknown.

LPG is less than half the cost of diesel/petrol in most places I've fuelled up. I doubt this truck will be crossing deserts, so LPG is a viable option. 100% gas engine, no petrol.

I do agree if it's always in the bris-syd-melb-adel kind of line then it's okay. If you are in more outback zones including Queensland outsite the south-east bit then LPG starts to cost the same as unleaded if it is available at all. That's why it ended up getting pretty pricey for us in the dual fuel mav in central aust. It was still worth it but I did the calculations and worked out that in a diesel at 14L/100km or so we would have saved well over a grand.

I have no idea where Milo intends to take his truck so LPG may be fine, I am just urging a bit of careful calculation on the "ten grand buys a lot of fuel" point.

I knew lpg got dearer out West, but didn't know it got to the same price! A bit stupid really, wonder how they justify that, still costs the same for them to buy and transport in relation to petrol.....

I think the cummins turbo six are hard to beat,
good on juice and reliable

For uprated brakes you could probably find that F250/350 front and rear ends will be a close fit and may even have a similar style wheel along with modernish brakes.

thehanko wrote:
someone mentioned 6mpg on petrol earlier

with full load ...
last trip to my brother's place with a 2.4 tonne tractor and some assorted stuff cost about 12mpg, and return empty at about 15. @ 100kph most of the way

1 problem with the 'it will cost less and i can buy a lot of fuel for that' is that you dont want to find your self saying - far out i cant be bothered doing that trip as its gonna cost over a grand just in petty!

I thought about that also. But on reflection I'm happy with my choice. I could have spent 20 plus Gs on a later motor/truck ... but my Terrier owes me less than 6 so far.
I use it maybe 10 times in a year, and it's just so cool to drive, that a little extra noise and some discomfort is acceptable; and after 8 years I still haven't spent all of that 16G on fuel.

Also I have been gradually finding little things to do to give me better ... "economy" like exhaust, carby, lekky ignition etc. atm trying to find me one o'them fancy hi energy dizzies ...
My first trip in it was about 5 mpg EMPTY ... was thinking OMG WOT HAVE I DONE!!!?

rockcrawler31 wrote:

jaztaz wrote:Caterpillar 3208 (N/A 175hp, turbo 210-250hp) & 6spd Spicer or 9 spd Road Ranger, although IMO an Allison 6spd auto would be great.

I've been told to stay away from cat due to running and servicing costs. Can anyone here elaborate?

What do people think of a cummins 6BT intercooled?

We've got a vote for isuzu or HINO, What do people think of Mitsubishi or UD engines?

yes cat cost alot, the motor will be expensive, the repair parts are expensive and they dont mind telling you to wait 4 weeks for some parts. I am a diesel fitter apprentice atm and i tell you what, cat do alot of weird things, they just shit me with how common sense was thrown out the window sometimes to make products.

but they do sound good when hauling ass with no pipes.

Make sure you do a build thread on this thing

It's a fair bit smaller, but this build on 4BTswaps.com will give you some inspiration as the styles are similar enough.

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthrea ... -w-the-4BT!
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthrea ... ab-mounted!





Can't find the photos of it all painted up though.

As suggested get an inter 345 or 392 engine, and swap the running gear, and plenty of lpg under it.

I had one with chassis extension ex NSW railways, 9 seat dog box/smoko room, and a 3.6metre tray on the back with tool boxes.

Had 400lt LPG under it, plus petrol, used to get 3km per lt out of it on the road, and it was doing 3600 rpm at 120 kph

It ran the 5 speed manual box with 1-1 fifth gear, and a super low 1st.

I had a set of hand made extractors for it, big 3"system straight through mufflers, twin 3"tailpipes, and with the total length it was a great sound on the road.

The brakes were also impressive for such a beats, though I never took it through the Adelaide hills, but brake material for the shoes has improved over the years.

Another option may also be swap the body to the IH chassis, or F series 350 or old 600, get it low on the ground, but maintain the look.

I also had a 39 Maple leaf, which ended up with 2F and landcruiser 4 speed etc, to keep it at least looking original

Also had a 37 Ford flathead tray many years ago.

It seems after chatting to the boys on HCVC.com that my issues will be not what will fit but getting all of this past transport. They are under the impression that IF i can get an engineer to take the time to look at it i'll be spending bulk money on having it inspected. At this stage i think it might be more cost effective to De-rate the GVM and have it registered as a smaller vehicle, shorten it, Z the chassis to get it lower or even slam it on a C40 or F350 chassis. Then just put the red devil on a car trailer and tow it rather than carry it.

being pre 63, isnt it exempt from adr.... meaning you could pretty much run any motor you wanted?

I know a bloke who as a 1940 ish ( war time) Chev tray truck and the engine and drive train is standard. How much would it cost to reco and keep it original. Would be worth more if kept standard.

NICK wrote:being pre 63, isnt it exempt from adr.... meaning you could pretty much run any motor you wanted?

doesn't seem to be what they've indicated to me over at hcvc, but that's what i originally thought. If i could get a hold of an engineer then i'd ask them but not one of the buggers ever answers their phones.

RN - I've bought it to either rod it or use for a purpose. There's no real shortage of mapleleafs around and they're not exactly a vehicle with real particular part in history or whatnot. While i understand the arguement for true resto, it's boring as batshit to drive and a bit impractical too.


The boys at hcvc indicated to me that it will be a nightmare and probably horribly expensive to try and get it all past RTA due to it falling into a heavy vehicle category and therefore subject to much greater scrutiny than a smaller commercial vehicle.

I have come across a chev C30 for sale in victoria so i was wondering if any of you know how hard it would be to make the swap from an engineering and RTA standpoint? If i use the later chassis i pick up IFS and disc brake front with Dana 70 rear and virtually any engine capacity i want in to the bargain. I should just about be able to fit a 14 foot tray and 2.5 tonne on the back which means i can carry my landcruiser round the country on it too.

So can anyone tell me how hard it is to do a body/chassis swap in NSW?

Does anyone know much about the availability of aftermarket parts for the front ends and brakes on these? What about the hydraulic assisted braking system? are they horribly expensive to rebuild and fix if something is wrong with it?

I'm guessing that some stuff on the cab will have to meet the adr's of the chassis like collapsible steering wheel etc. The chassis is a 1979 so what else will i have to do?

Also the chassis is in Romsey Vic, so if any lives in or near there i'll happily pay a carton for them to go around and give me an independant assessment of it's condition.

MILO

KiwiBacon wrote:It's a fair bit smaller, but this build on 4BTswaps.com will give you some inspiration as the styles are similar enough.

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthrea ... -w-the-4BT!
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthrea ... ab-mounted!





Can't find the photos of it all painted up though.

Awesome Airbags and Cummins FTW!!

isuzu or hino diesel 6 would probably be the best for economy and driveability, cummins 6bt would be pretty cool too, and maybe not too bad a thing.
I'd love to say gm 4/71 6/71 or something similar but you'd have a lot of noise - good noise, and fuel to deal with.

how heavy is that truck? is getting it down rated an option, this would mean you will pay less on rego and a normal engineer could look at it for you, not someone qualified to do heavy vechicles.

as for the chev chassis, alot of the suspension, brakes, etc are the same through till the late 90's assuming it is a duallie due to the fact it has a dana 70 it should be a C3500. Check it is a Dana as the 2500's were a 14 bolt, still pretty beef thou.

I was sitting at the lights today beside a dirty old merc, would have been mid eights. were'nt these things a diesel eight? were they any could? i imagine you would buy a complete car for around a grand.

NICK

What's a C30? Is it a commercial chassis or a ute?

That one I linked to a few posts back is sitting on a P30 breadvan chassis. Rear end has been converted to disc brakes with a bolt on conversion kit.

One thing about getting it engineered as a truck, they should have fewer issues with crash protection etc than lighter classes.

Awesome truck!! Cool idea!!

Go the 6BT Cummins!!

KiwiBacon wrote:What's a C30? Is it a commercial chassis or a ute?

That one I linked to a few posts back is sitting on a P30 breadvan chassis. Rear end has been converted to disc brakes with a bolt on conversion kit.

One thing about getting it engineered as a truck, they should have fewer issues with crash protection etc than lighter classes.

It's a commercial vehicle, sorta like a F350HD or a Ram3500 supposedly wth a payload of about two tonne or a little over. But apparently being a truck registration makes it subject to a whole raft of tougher restrictions, including having it's GVM downgraded due to it's age. It's looking more and more like it's just not worth it to have a carrier for the Cruiser so i'm just going to slam it on the C30 or C20 chassis and hotrod the hell out of it

rockcrawler31 wrote:It's a commercial vehicle, sorta like a F350HD or a Ram3500 supposedly wth a payload of about two tonne or a little over. But apparently being a truck registration makes it subject to a whole raft of tougher restrictions, including having it's GVM downgraded due to it's age. It's looking more and more like it's just not worth it to have a carrier for the Cruiser so i'm just going to slam it on the C30 or C20 chassis and hotrod the hell out of it

Fair enough. Still going diesel?