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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:34 pm
by duncan
If I was going alloy then I would use some good quality rod ends and just drill and tap the solid alloy bar nice and easy
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:23 am
by uninformed
Slunnie wrote:MONGREL wrote:bulldogy wrote:MONGREL wrote:duncan wrote:If you do go with 4340 the welding inspector at work advised me to pre heat to 124 degrees or straw color then weld with low hydrogen rods then post heat or at least let cool naturaly .Most I have done this way some I have just used a 13s rod with a bit more amps to burn in never had one fail yet just do a root run then cap with a weave over the top or you could go for a 3 run fillet
Duncan
Shouldn't chrome molly be welded with TIG only to reduce the heat affected zone? Which will alter properties and cause failure in that area?
Have read it needs to be heated to a stupid temp like 400degC and cooled VERY slowly (bucket of lime) to be welded with low hydrogen rods.
I have a radius arm i made in the shed, im worried about using it because the pin that mounts to chassis (GQ) is from 4140. Pre heated and cooled in heat blanket, but im not sure about it.
120* and cooled in a heat blanket is all that is required
This is from inter alloy web site
Welding
Welding of 4140 in the hardened and tempered condition (as normally supplied), is not recommended and should be avoided if at all possible, as the mechanical properties will be altered within the weld heat affected zone. It is preferred that welding be carried out on 4140 while in the annealed condition, and that the work piece, immediately on cooling to hand warm, is then stress relieved at 595 oC - 620 oC prior to hardening and tempering.
If welding in the hardened and tempered condition is really necessary, then the work piece, immediately on cooling to hand warm, should be if possible stress relieved at 15 oC below the original tempering temperature (if known).
Welding Procedure
Welding of 4140 in whatever condition should always be carried out using low hydrogen electrodes - please consult your welding consumables supplier.
Suggested pre-heat temperature
Section oC
25 mm 370
40 mm 400
50 mm 425
75 mm 455
150 mm + 510
Post Welding
Maximum cooling rate 95 oC per hour down to 95 oC, follow by cooling in still air. N.B. No draught. It is recommended that the work piece if possible is wrapped in an heat resistant blanket or buried in sand etc..
This is the exact thing that worrys me. Someone was making these from 4140 before and when I asked about pre/post treatment was told "they're all good slunnie". Not good enough for me, especially if they crack.
The set I made were low carbon steel 50OD 25ID (12.5mm wall) with Patrol bushes at either end. These weld well, are not heat affected and bend rather than brittle fail.
Slunnie,
where did you buy it and whats its trade name? Ive been looking at euro-norm from Bolher
Serg
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 10:50 am
by Slunnie
uninformed wrote:Slunnie wrote:This is the exact thing that worrys me. Someone was making these from 4140 before and when I asked about pre/post treatment was told "they're all good slunnie". Not good enough for me, especially if they crack.
The set I made were low carbon steel 50OD 25ID (12.5mm wall) with Patrol bushes at either end. These weld well, are not heat affected and bend rather than brittle fail.
Slunnie,
where did you buy it and whats its trade name? Ive been looking at euro-norm from Bolher
Serg
Serg it was EN102941-1 Steel hollow bar from Blackwoods in 50x25. Part:01355956 and you can buy it by the meter. I would assume that other metal places sell it such as Metal Corp and Onesteel. These fit nicely with Patrol bush rings and the mismatch if you cut the metal square is great for doing multiple runs on the weld. The rings were from 3rds Productions at Blacktown in Sydney.
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:47 pm
by Willy Hilux
Rhett wrote:if you want to run patrol bushes, tap the ally and weld some thread to the bush tube. It is not all that expensive for 7000 series ally.
Then the threaded rod becomes the weak point, and how strong the bar is doesn't matter then. The link is only as strong as the rod going into it.
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 1:40 pm
by Wooders
Willy Hilux wrote:Rhett wrote:if you want to run patrol bushes, tap the ally and weld some thread to the bush tube. It is not all that expensive for 7000 series ally.
Then the threaded rod becomes the weak point, and how strong the bar is doesn't matter then. The link is only as strong as the rod going into it.
That is not quite true. I have run several alloy links (7000 series). I have bent 2 of them and in each case they bent in the middle area. The bar thickness, the length, hole size etc all need to be considered before saying the threaded section becomes a weakness and certainly wasn't the case in my experience.
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:40 pm
by Guy
Willy Hilux wrote:Rhett wrote:if you want to run patrol bushes, tap the ally and weld some thread to the bush tube. It is not all that expensive for 7000 series ally.
Then the threaded rod becomes the weak point, and how strong the bar is doesn't matter then. The link is only as strong as the rod going into it.
Possibly true. But a forged rod\rod end is still going to be very very durable\tough
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 3:16 pm
by Slunnie
The thread becomes a weakness when a bending moment is put through it. Id assume the scenario would be landing on a rock on the threaded section. Interestingly I have seen and repaired a threaded panhard rod where a balljoint was designed into it which was not in line with the forces along the panhard and this failed through the thread on the ball joint very quickly. Mind you, I've also seen pics of the KOH trucks that gat around this by just running great big mumma ball joints too.
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 4:12 pm
by Guy
Slunnie wrote:The thread becomes a weakness when a bending moment is put through it. Id assume the scenario would be landing on a rock on the threaded section. Interestingly I have seen and repaired a threaded panhard rod where a balljoint was designed into it which was not in line with the forces along the panhard and this failed through the thread on the ball joint very quickly. Mind you, I've also seen pics of the KOH trucks that gat around this by just running great big mumma ball joints too.
Hmm ball joint with the female thread .. run the link through the die .. how long before that becomes a reality with something like evo joints.
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:59 pm
by Slunnie
love_mud wrote:Slunnie wrote:The thread becomes a weakness when a bending moment is put through it. Id assume the scenario would be landing on a rock on the threaded section. Interestingly I have seen and repaired a threaded panhard rod where a balljoint was designed into it which was not in line with the forces along the panhard and this failed through the thread on the ball joint very quickly. Mind you, I've also seen pics of the KOH trucks that gat around this by just running great big mumma ball joints too.
Hmm ball joint with the female thread .. run the link through the die .. how long before that becomes a reality with something like evo joints.
Female thread on the ball joint wont make any difference. It just means the link breaks instead of the ball joint as the thread (stress raiser) is just moved slightly
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:06 pm
by Micka
Slunnie wrote:uninformed wrote:Slunnie wrote:This is the exact thing that worrys me. Someone was making these from 4140 before and when I asked about pre/post treatment was told "they're all good slunnie". Not good enough for me, especially if they crack.
The set I made were low carbon steel 50OD 25ID (12.5mm wall) with Patrol bushes at either end. These weld well, are not heat affected and bend rather than brittle fail.
Slunnie,
where did you buy it and whats its trade name? Ive been looking at euro-norm from Bolher
Serg
Serg it was EN102941-1 Steel hollow bar from Blackwoods in 50x25. Part:01355956 and you can buy it by the meter. I would assume that other metal places sell it such as Metal Corp and Onesteel. These fit nicely with Patrol bush rings and the mismatch if you cut the metal square is great for doing multiple runs on the weld. The rings were from 3rds Productions at Blacktown in Sydney.
That's the stuff that I'm using for my links. Fawkin heavy shit...and $$$
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 9:34 pm
by uninformed
Slunnie wrote:uninformed wrote:Slunnie wrote:This is the exact thing that worrys me. Someone was making these from 4140 before and when I asked about pre/post treatment was told "they're all good slunnie". Not good enough for me, especially if they crack.
The set I made were low carbon steel 50OD 25ID (12.5mm wall) with Patrol bushes at either end. These weld well, are not heat affected and bend rather than brittle fail.
Slunnie,
where did you buy it and whats its trade name? Ive been looking at euro-norm from Bolher
Serg
Serg it was EN102941-1 Steel hollow bar from Blackwoods in 50x25. Part:01355956 and you can buy it by the meter. I would assume that other metal places sell it such as Metal Corp and Onesteel. These fit nicely with Patrol bush rings and the mismatch if you cut the metal square is great for doing multiple runs on the weld. The rings were from 3rds Productions at Blacktown in Sydney.
cheers Slunnie,
i just cross checked and its the same as euro-norm from Bohler....
50x25 seems a fair bit of over kill, considering the material strengths and the original links size and material....
Serg
Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 11:00 pm
by Slunnie
uninformed wrote:cheers Slunnie,
i just cross checked and its the same as euro-norm from Bohler....
50x25 seems a fair bit of over kill, considering the material strengths and the original links size and material....
Serg
Absolutely. The idea was to go nuts with them on a 4WD at full noise, slide on it, land hard on it and drive home. I've seen too many links fail, especially stock ones - these are for care free fun that gets you out of the bush again. Those links are a fraction over 1m long also so needed a bit more. They don't depend on section for strength so wont fold like a coke can and if they weigh 10kg instead of 5kg then so be it. If they bend or break then they're still the least of your worries
Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:16 am
by duncan
Remember the lower links on a GQ are of set so you cant just weld an eyelet to each end make up a jig from a good old link first.
Have used en26 before in solid bar for lower links
Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:58 pm
by uninformed
apart from the fact that these are made from a better material (4130) they are still only 6mm wall.
so why the need to go soild in good materials???
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=842266
Serg
Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:10 pm
by MONGREL
Question for the guys who know from experince.
Q.1. What is a good grade round bar to use for making the pin at the chassis end of GQ radius arm?
Im a boily, unfortunately have never worked with chrome molly and dont really have access to tig (not right tungsten and filler wire anyways) so whats the best material that can be welded with mig/stick without a heap of pre/post heat preceedures to follow?
I dont have a shed, will be doing the work in my lunch break at work. As said earlier in the thread i've made a radius arm already, billet section and bush rings are biz 80. This im confident with i work with Biz every day.
My pin is made from 4140, i didn't know what i had used untill after i had used it. I gave it pre heat and cooled it slowly as precaution because i knew it wasn't average round bar.
Q.2. Who has used 4140 without issues? What kind of abuse?
Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:16 am
by duncan
As said have used chrome molley for links on 5 different cars I have built never had a weld fail .
All the eye lets that I machine up are only out of bright bar cant see you haveing a problem only ever welded up my stuff with a arc welder useing 13s rods just 2.5s.
Have done both the pre heat and some just welded cold run the welder at about 70 amps do a root run then either 2 passes over the top or a weave.
Duncan
Re:
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:50 am
by MONGREL
bad_religion_au wrote:what about bizalloy?
or timber?
Biz 80?? Thats is what my radius arm is made from.. I work with it every day. Might as well use timber ey?? Its one step above your normal shitty grade mild steell!!
Re:
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:00 am
by MONGREL
duncan wrote:As said have used chrome molley for links on 5 different cars I have built never had a weld fail .
All the eye lets that I machine up are only out of bright bar cant see you haveing a problem only ever welded up my stuff with a arc welder useing 13s rods just 2.5s.
Have done both the pre heat and some just welded cold run the welder at about 70 amps do a root run then either 2 passes over the top or a weave.
Duncan
Cheers Duncan. Have been using the arm i mentioned for a while now has copped some abuse, driven every day. I actually just used our mig equivellent of low hydrogen. Has been crack tested twice by myself no dramas.
Re: Re:
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:42 pm
by uninformed
MONGREL wrote:duncan wrote:As said have used chrome molley for links on 5 different cars I have built never had a weld fail .
All the eye lets that I machine up are only out of bright bar cant see you haveing a problem only ever welded up my stuff with a arc welder useing 13s rods just 2.5s.
Have done both the pre heat and some just welded cold run the welder at about 70 amps do a root run then either 2 passes over the top or a weave.
Duncan
Cheers Duncan. Have been using the arm i mentioned for a while now has copped some abuse, driven every day. I actually just used our mig equivellent of low hydrogen. Has been crack tested twice by myself no dramas.
is it a Radius arm??? do you have pics?
Re: Re:
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:23 pm
by MONGREL
uninformed wrote:MONGREL wrote:duncan wrote:As said have used chrome molley for links on 5 different cars I have built never had a weld fail .
All the eye lets that I machine up are only out of bright bar cant see you haveing a problem only ever welded up my stuff with a arc welder useing 13s rods just 2.5s.
Have done both the pre heat and some just welded cold run the welder at about 70 amps do a root run then either 2 passes over the top or a weave.
Duncan
Cheers Duncan. Have been using the arm i mentioned for a while now has copped some abuse, driven every day. I actually just used our mig equivellent of low hydrogen. Has been crack tested twice by myself no dramas.
is it a Radius arm??? do you have pics?
Sure do, will pm them if you like.
Re:
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:32 am
by Roctoy
bad_religion_au wrote:what about bizalloy?
or timber?
bamboo?
Re: Re:
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:04 pm
by Mr DJ
Roctoy Designfab wrote:bad_religion_au wrote:what about bizalloy?
or timber?
bamboo?
Only if you heat treat it correctly
Re: Re:
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:10 pm
by DamTriton
Mr DJ wrote:Roctoy Designfab wrote:bad_religion_au wrote:what about bizalloy?
or timber?
bamboo?
Only if you heat treat it correctly
Don't laugh they have enough confidence in it to use it as scaffolding on highrises
