Outer Limits 4x4 Board

uzdnabuzd wrote:As far as i am concerned if they wont tell you the mode it is run in, it's bullshit mode.

No secrets are given away by stating the dyno settings, tyre size and diff ratio's

What dyno settings are you chasing? Please elaborate as i dont know what
you are asking for . And as for the bullshit mode comment how bout you
jump in a car and come say it in person you might get a suprise as i dont
like people incinuating im a fraud.


Tyres are 275/65/R17
Dyno was run in 4th gear - Direct

As for Shootout mode , No the dyno was not in shootout mode as i dont run
every car in shootout mode ! that was not the intention of this dyno run it
was just to compare if the car was performing as usual.


I DONT RACE DYNO'S i couldn't give a rats arse what someone makes on
someone eleses Dyno !

I use it for my tuning purposes ,comparasions (With what we do) and
diagnostics.

We might do another excercise , If we could politly ask Kiwibacon for his
Time & knowledge to work out for us BSFC - HP .
So at RPM Where Max HP is delivered which is 3300rpm (1650 Pump RPM)
we have very close to 190mm3 / 1000 Strokes ( not exact as from when i
tested the pump we added fuel ) but should be close enough for this
excersice also with 36 psig at given RPM
tyre sizes 275/65R17
4 th gear 1:1
Diff ratio 4.3:1

How smokey is it?

First I ran the figures from airflow, working through to see how much fuel could be burnt with a hot and smokey, but not instant meltdown A/F ratio (16).

rpm 3300
BSFC 300 (ballpark, could be 10% either way)
AF 16 (smoke limit on a healthy engine, but very hot whether smokey or not)
Boost 36psi
VE 80%
Compressor 70% efficient
Intercooler 60% effective
Ambient 20C
Sealevel

Results:
Fuel burnt 137 cc/1000 shots.
Torque at crank 670Nm
Power at crank 231kw

Now if we keep the airflow the same and crank the fuel up, the results get less accurate. Simply because you're dumping a large amount of fuel out the back unburnt (clouds of black smoke) which doesn't contribute to extra power.

With 190cc/1000 shots of fuel we get these results.
Power at crank 320kw (this won't happen)
A/F ratio 11.5:1 (this will happen)
An A/F ratio this low isn't producing power, it's just destroying engines. Massive amounts of smoke, dangerous EGT's etc. Though the excess diesel will evaporate and cool somewhat like a rich petrol mixture does, this isn't a good thing.

Take the A/F ratio back to 14.55:1 (stoich) and see what the limit of power will likely be.

Fuel 151cc/1000 shots
Power 254kw (343hp)
Torque 735Nm.


My opinion, not enough boost to develop 300hp at the wheels with big rubber, but it'll be close. It's a very hot and smokey tune either way you cut it.

Thanks for doing that for us all KiwiBacon.

That is about the result I expected to see based off the calcs I did of my own.

Turns out to be around 280ish hp at the rear's on a true reading dyno.

KiwiBacon wrote:How smokey is it?

First I ran the figures from airflow, working through to see how much fuel could be burnt with a hot and smokey, but not instant meltdown A/F ratio (16).

rpm 3300
BSFC 300 (ballpark, could be 10% either way)
AF 16 (smoke limit on a healthy engine, but very hot whether smokey or not)
Boost 36psi
VE 80%
Compressor 70% efficient
Intercooler 60% effective
Ambient 20C
Sealevel

Results:
Fuel burnt 137 cc/1000 shots.
Torque at crank 670Nm
Power at crank 231kw

Now if we keep the airflow the same and crank the fuel up, the results get less accurate. Simply because you're dumping a large amount of fuel out the back unburnt (clouds of black smoke) which doesn't contribute to extra power.

With 190cc/1000 shots of fuel we get these results.
Power at crank 320kw (this won't happen)
A/F ratio 11.5:1 (this will happen)
An A/F ratio this low isn't producing power, it's just destroying engines. Massive amounts of smoke, dangerous EGT's etc. Though the excess diesel will evaporate and cool somewhat like a rich petrol mixture does, this isn't a good thing.

Take the A/F ratio back to 14.55:1 (stoich) and see what the limit of power will likely be.

Fuel 151cc/1000 shots
Power 254kw (343hp)
Torque 735Nm.


My opinion, not enough boost to develop 300hp at the wheels with big rubber, but it'll be close. It's a very hot and smokey tune either way you cut it.

We are running 15.1:1 AFR At given Hp , Leans out in the top end just to help with EGT'S
On the gymkahana High speed runs massive Back straight i seen 830Degree pre turbo exhaust temps . so yes at given hp if we held it in steady state it
would melt to pieces but load of car isn't enough it either breaks traction or
accelerates

Its funny that your fueling figures are lower than i expected to get given hp,
because i bet everyones fueling figures (mine included) are done with
12sd12 iso7440 test injectors wich may flow more than the std injectors?
i might make some a size to a size lines up one day and do the excercise

Thanks for your time Kiwibacon

sswaffie wrote:

uzdnabuzd wrote:As far as i am concerned if they wont tell you the mode it is run in, it's bullshit mode.

No secrets are given away by stating the dyno settings, tyre size and diff ratio's

What dyno settings are you chasing? Please elaborate as i dont know what
you are asking for . And as for the bullshit mode comment how bout you
jump in a car and come say it in person you might get a suprise as i dont
like people incinuating im a fraud.


Tyres are 275/65/R17
Dyno was run in 4th gear - Direct

As for Shootout mode , No the dyno was not in shootout mode as i dont run
every car in shootout mode ! that was not the intention of this dyno run it
was just to compare if the car was performing as usual.


I DONT RACE DYNO'S i couldn't give a rats arse what someone makes on
someone eleses Dyno !

I use it for my tuning purposes ,comparasions (With what we do) and
diagnostics.

What ramp rate do you use when you run the car up. It makes the dyno graph look completely different. The other questions you answered thank you. I dont know why it is that hard to give that info? It has nothing to do with racing dynos. It has everything to do with trying to compare different setups against your (the obvious bench mark in Australia) race trucks in order to find out how far away we actually are. It would actually mean potentially more business as if people can accurately say they are miles away from you they may actually want to buy your stuff???

mr Kiwi Bacon. What does 140cc's and 42 psi give you. RPM approx 4000. Making 42psi from 2200

Cheers

I dont believe that a td42 modified or not will ever be able to burn 190cc's. This is from experience too. This motor will not last the first day in a cliffhanger IMO.

It may be possible with a td42 stroker kit, 1:8 ratio rockers, new pistons(to allow for valve lift), custom head with wild pre comps, and custom rods.

All of the above is available for a td42....................................

I'll take a photo with the next performance pump
we do while on the bench , 140mm3 /1000 shots with 12sd12's iso 7440
at 1500 pump rpm will be lucky to give you 260 rwhp

100 was the ramp rate
If I get time on the weekend I'll do a few different ramps and let u know

cool, cheers

sswaffie wrote:I'll take a photo with the next performance pump
we do while on the bench , 140mm3 /1000 shots with 12sd12's iso 7440
at 1500 pump rpm will be lucky to give you 260 rwhp

100 was the ramp rate
If I get time on the weekend I'll do a few different ramps and let u know

Only difference between the ramp rates will be outright hp in the top end due to the shorter run = less heat, and quicker turbo spool up due to more time to generate heat down low.

Try it at 70, thats where I run all the diesels I tune, and it provides a good amount of load for them equivelant to a hard 4th/5th gear street run.

Also try setting ramp rate to 000, use time as the speed sale in the graph screen, load it at what ever rpm your testing, foot flat, then hit ramp.

This will give you steady state graphing at a set RPM over time. Very usefull for testing max egt's and intercooler efficiency while under continuous load.

Northside 4x4 wrote:

sswaffie wrote:I'll take a photo with the next performance pump
we do while on the bench , 140mm3 /1000 shots with 12sd12's iso 7440
at 1500 pump rpm will be lucky to give you 260 rwhp

100 was the ramp rate
If I get time on the weekend I'll do a few different ramps and let u know

Only difference between the ramp rates will be outright hp in the top end due to the shorter run = less heat, and quicker turbo spool up due to more time to generate heat down low.



They are some pretty big differences............

uzdnabuzd wrote:

Northside 4x4 wrote:

sswaffie wrote:I'll take a photo with the next performance pump
we do while on the bench , 140mm3 /1000 shots with 12sd12's iso 7440
at 1500 pump rpm will be lucky to give you 260 rwhp

100 was the ramp rate
If I get time on the weekend I'll do a few different ramps and let u know

Only difference between the ramp rates will be outright hp in the top end due to the shorter run = less heat, and quicker turbo spool up due to more time to generate heat down low.



They are some pretty big differences............

They are important things to note, there will be any about 10-15kw in it on something highly strung running 15:1 fuel ratio. Especially on the 4000-5500rpm power band.

To be honest, all dyno graphs should show weather station info, your ramp rate, correction factor of whatever is being used and allow for user info to be added. Also date stamped. My 2cents

Example of:

Now from memory this vehicle was a td42t engine, in 4th gear, large front mount, gt2876 .64, extractor manifold I think, std inlet, our pump and injectors, 35 " mud tyres, 4.6 diff, will have to look at dyno notes. It was very smokey down low and got high on egts, but it also shows what can be done.

Andy

I would agree Andy. DD do show it in shoot out mode, but they also add 10-20kw in the process of running it in said mode.
I think in the future If i am ever faced with a dyno upgrade dilemma, Mainline would be infront of DD currently.
The new Digital DD ones have pretty over inflated figures compared to the old school ones, + I dont really like the interface and graphs.

I used to use a dd dyno, switching to mainline was a big step, but now getting close to 10,000 test runs on it, I wouldn't use anything less. The constant and future upgrades they do are fantastic. I have dynoed vehicles from 6 mths to 2 years ago and they redyno within 1-2kw from the last time, regardless of weather conditions. The accuracy, if setting up is exactly the same is fantastic.


Andy

I wouldnt say accuracy would be much different between the two. DD is also very good and very repeatable even with changing weather conditions.
Just alot of the other features like you mentioned are what do it for me.

Only thing i dont like is the inability to lay AFR ontop of power or boost or what ever, its all printed as separate graphs.

When your tuning does it show up like this? Or does it have the 3 axis like DD does?

uzdnabuzd wrote:mr Kiwi Bacon. What does 140cc's and 42 psi give you. RPM approx 4000. Making 42psi from 2200

Cheers

That's around 17:1 air/fuel ratio. Which is about right.

Jeez we are getting a bit side tracked about dyno's here, why dont we start a new post called "whats your dyno set at because mine's right and your's is wrong !"

Sorry but this post getting further away from any information on the guys out there who build , suppy and use pumps for Big HP 4.2 TD's , lets keep it on track please, i know their are a lot of guys who want to know some good info

SuperiorEngineering wrote:Jeez we are getting a bit side tracked about dyno's here, why dont we start a new post called "whats your dyno set at because mine's right and your's is wrong !"

Sorry but this post getting further away from any information on the guys out there who build , suppy and use pumps for Big HP 4.2 TD's , lets keep it on track please, i know their are a lot of guys who want to know some good info

Here here Mick, same thing happened on another thread about what intercooler you using!

While some of this info is welcome the dyno shoot out probly isn't.

David

You beat me too it Mick lets talk pumps

So answering a side question isnt right? Ive posted a graph with info to show everyone. No ones dyno is right or wrong, because generally they are used by the right minded people to show before and after comparisons. Thats what they are, a measuring tool, no more no less. As to who's is better, no one can tell or prove. Even factory specs chnage from vehicle to vehicle.

If you want to complain, criticise or think it should be done differently go buy your own, show us hows its done and post up your proof. Discussing some FACT's shouldnt be of concern. After all its a public forum which we all contribute to.

Nothing wrong with a healthy discussion.

Andy

SuperiorEngineering wrote:This has probably been posted a million times but i am after the most current info .

Who has had a pump/ turbo combination successfully built for them to achieve 350+ RWHP in a patrol 4.2 TD.
( for this post i am not talking about all the internal work and extra add ons just 2 things, the pump and turbo )
Any business's that reply, please back up your info with real figures and dyno figures not estimates or guess's and you can PM or email me pricing if you like as i am in a hurry to get a TD42 ready for it's next race.
Mick

Andy, Have you misunderstood the intent to get the thread back on track! This was the original post. It quite simply asks for anyone who builds or has had a pump built by someone or business that can achieve 350+ RWHP to post info on here about it and to back up your claim with real figues or dyno graphs that's it nothing about the other dyno stuff like ramp settings etc etc! ( By the way I don't think Mick is wanting trade secrets on pumps just who can do one how much and what is it capable of.

The other stuff hasn't been mentioned yet........ Plunger sizes 12mm or bigger? there is plenty of talk around now about 14mm plungers and huge cam plates that give big lift for big fuel delivery!!

David

If you want a real 350+ rwhp then you're talking 300kw crank. To get that it's 150cc/1000 shots burnt clean and over 45 psi boost at 4000rpm.

KiwiBacon wrote:If you want a real 350+ rwhp then you're talking 300kw crank. To get that it's 150cc/1000 shots burnt clean and over 45 psi boost at 4000rpm.

United fuel injection for pump. You need to get the right turbo with the pump. Small amount of smoke on take off and then clean all the way through to 5300rpm. Idle control is also not a problem.

They are very well priced also.

Excuse my ignorance, but who builds and sells the "United fuel injection pumps"? is this a brand or business ?
Mick

My post about keeping it on track is because previous posts have been stating some businesses do not know what they are doing with their dyno's and that is no relation to this post.

I have a small update on how we have been going offline for those who are interested,

Shaun from Swaffeid Industries has come back to us with a quote to get our Diesel up around the same as he is running.

MTQ has started to get us some info / quote's on a pump/ turbo to acheive much the same as shaun has acheived.

AMMS is looking into what they can do for us.

So we have some options becoming available.

Just to clarify i am not after any secrets as i dont have a dyno and i dont build or service engines and i dont ever want to be involved in this type of work , Our Business is suspension.
We are just after a pump and turbo combination that has been proven in the real world of racing , also to clarify the type of racing is coopers style ( not cliffhanger or outback style ) so you are on and off the gas as well as breaking traction regularly so i dont need a combination that is suited to towing up the range or being held wide open for hours on end ect
And smoke is of little concern really considering what kevs Race trucks have always been like .
Mick

As im sure the other shops will have explained to you already in their quotes Mick.
A water injection system for your application is worth its weight in gold, in conjunction with the intercooler/turbo setup for keeping those inlet temps as low as possible. Adding a 50/50 Mix of water methanol, will also reduce the amount of diesel the pump will have to supply to make the power you want.

As for turbo selection.. You say it will be on and off the throttle quite a bit so I assume quick response and decent spoolup would outweigh the benefits to pure top end power?
Just about any of the GT30 series will make the 300+hp you are chasing, the only problem will be keeping the 40+Psi of charge air temp in check.

We should have another patrol out in the next couple of weeks making around the 300hp mark on a new turbo setup. Will PM the results if your interested.

SuperiorEngineering wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but who builds and sells the "United fuel injection pumps"? is this a brand or business ?
Mick

.

united fuel injection, perth wa

http://www.unitedfuel.com.au/view/home/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mick, the problem with smoke in competition is simple. If you're smoking you're losing power and not getting what you should from the fuel you're dumping in.

What's the point in spending big $$ on a pump with big delivery if most of it is going out the back unburnt?