Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I'd say your first step is to buy a scan-tool. OBD2 to laptop will cost very little and give a wealth of knowledge. From there there might be a specific mazda/ford diagnostic tool or laptop software that will tell you more.

I've heard of guys getting it running and slowly cutting wires they don't think are necessary. If it stops you know you've just cut the wrong wire.

KiwiBacon wrote:I'd say your first step is to buy a scan-tool. OBD2 to laptop will cost very little and give a wealth of knowledge. From there there might be a specific mazda/ford diagnostic tool or laptop software that will tell you more.

sounds interesting were and how much and what other application would it have ie petrol efi ?

KiwiBacon wrote: I've heard of guys getting it running and slowly cutting wires they don't think are necessary. If it stops you know you've just cut the wrong wire.

I would hope to , but you would have to drive it inbetween each cut to make sure it hasnt gone into limp mode as you wouldnt know while it sits there idleing!!

offroader-rama wrote:sounds interesting were and how much and what other application would it have ie petrol efi ?

OBD2 (On Board Diagnostics 2) is the default standard for accessing trouble codes in modern cars. An OBD2 reader will plug into virtually anything made in the last 10 years and give you not only trouble codes but real-time readout of a lot of sensors (rev counter, water temp, fuel usage etc etc). It's original use was emissions compliance in the US, but it's grown to be a whole lot more.
A lot of companies have their own software which plugs into the same port but gives a whole lot more info and can be actually used to retune parts of the car. Like VW's VAG-COM and Nissans Consult II.

I've never looked for anything specifically Mazda/Ford though.

Trial and error is often the only way to achieve something nobody has done before.
It does cost alot of money, especially if something goes wrong.
Or you could just chuck a petrol motor in and be done with it quite cheaply, thats about the options available.

They run a bosch injector, they also use 90 to 120 v to lift then drop back to
a lower votlage 12v or so , and when they switch off they store the energy
from the solenoid to use again . so the 5 injection cycles you oviously cant
see by eye (looks like one injection). Motec sound promising in bringing out
something to do it all ...... awsome

Northside 4x4 wrote:Trial and error is often the only way to achieve something nobody has done before.
It does cost alot of money, especially if something goes wrong.
Or you could just chuck a petrol motor in and be done with it quite cheaply, thats about the options available.

dont give up on me so easy !! I dont give up so easy but I have to be real at the same time.
7 yrs ago I was told I couldnt put a ca18det in a sierra with out it looking like a full comp truck I did it with sagged springs 205/65/15 it looked as stock as a rock other than a stainless steel snorkel and run 12's with 18 psi stock ecu drove it like that for 2 yrs till it was to known and got boring flogging skylines etc now its a comp truck with 37's blah blah blah etc
then I was told I would never get 31's under a mazda E2000 without it been cop bait, did it put a commodore v6 4sp auto in it to 140ltr gas tank, being pulled over for random breath test once and once for speeding and its never being questioned! but thats between us shhhhh

Any way I havent reinvented the wheel and dont intend to. I would just like some back up with good advice (which I have been getting cheers to all, and no flaming ??) as this project is tougher than I thought it would be, but I am willing to give anything a go!! provided I am not throwing money with out a clue I am ambitious but not a much of a gambler if you get me.

KiwiBacon wrote:

offroader-rama wrote:sounds interesting were and how much and what other application would it have ie petrol efi ?

OBD2 (On Board Diagnostics 2) is the default standard for accessing trouble codes in modern cars. An OBD2 reader will plug into virtually anything made in the last 10 years and give you not only trouble codes but real-time readout of a lot of sensors (rev counter, water temp, fuel usage etc etc). It's original use was emissions compliance in the US, but it's grown to be a whole lot more.
A lot of companies have their own software which plugs into the same port but gives a whole lot more info and can be actually used to retune parts of the car. Like VW's VAG-COM and Nissans Consult II.

I've never looked for anything specifically Mazda/Ford though.

I have being looking at prices and options there are a few to choose from ranging from wifi or bluetooth system that you leave plugged in and access via laptop when ever you feel the need, I am told they are very slow though then several models to top end plug in live feed with memory to down load graphs back to pc for fine tuning I guess?

I think if I am to buy one I will go the higher end of the range there no were as dear as I thought they would be !! I will purchase one by the end of the week cheers for the thoughts.

sswaffie wrote:They run a bosch injector, they also use 90 to 120 v to lift then drop back to
a lower votlage 12v or so , and when they switch off they store the energy
from the solenoid to use again . so the 5 injection cycles you oviously cant
see by eye (looks like one injection). Motec sound promising in bringing out
something to do it all ...... awsome

wish i had a rough date and dollar figure as if its affordable and not light yrs away i would wait for them to release it come on motec

Around what sort of money for the higher end ones you mention Offroad-obama... heh heh

Hi mate,

If you really can't use the Mazda ECU it might be worth trying something like this - http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/d ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I've had a little bit to do with this Nippon Denso system, it seems alot more basic than other common rail systems. Just a thought, because it might be easier to fit a system from an industrial style engine. Perhaps even pull the ecu for it from a wreck of some sort (All sorts of machines use it, Komatsu, Isuzu, John Deere)

Hope this helps mate.

offroader-rama wrote:1. from what I have been told it want happen as there is to much been cut from harness and if I was to try and solder it back together, the solder joint would mess with the resistance so as it wont work any way.

I find that very implausible.

offroader-rama wrote:I would hope to , but you would have to drive it inbetween each cut to make sure it hasnt gone into limp mode as you wouldnt know while it sits there idleing!!

You should be able to check that live with the OBD system mentioned already I think.

Rilux wrote:Hi mate,

If you really can't use the Mazda ECU it might be worth trying something like this - http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/d ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I've had a little bit to do with this Nippon Denso system, it seems alot more basic than other common rail systems. Just a thought, because it might be easier to fit a system from an industrial style engine. Perhaps even pull the ecu for it from a wreck of some sort (All sorts of machines use it, Komatsu, Isuzu, John Deere)

Hope this helps mate.

thanks for the link i called them they go home at 4 so try again tomorrow
its not that i cant use the factory ecu, its that if i am to do the conversion i want get as much power as possible and make it as simple as possible so factory ecu requires a load of things attached that i have to find some were safe for them so it works, and requires a decent piggy back system so as i can experiment with turbo upgrade / boost, fuel back pressure in exhaust, air intake from snorkle etc etc the piggy back systems that i feel worthy are $1500 + so an after market ecu would replace the lot and make it SIMPLE tuneable fixable etc

The stock ECU will also be tunable, there's no need to spend $1500 on a piggy back.

The scangauge will indeed tell you if its in limp home mode, without the need to drive the car.
So the first option I would be looking at is getting a pedal box, and rewiring the basics to the point the motor is startable.
They do run a per gear fueling map, im not sure how that ecu determines what gear you are in. It could be algorithm's or microswitches. A full wiring diagram will be a big help though.

Dont worry about what you have been told regarding the joint soldering, it wont effect it.

I guess the only real benefit you would have with a piggyback, is you have purchased a physical object that can either be removed and used on your next project or sold. And the ability to run a few different boost/fuel/timing/throttle maps on a switch in the car.
Rather than just paying dyno time for the reflash.
Apart from that, standard ecu tuning and piggyback will give the same results.

Check out ecutek if your after a decent scan/logging capable tool for it though. They also offer tuning solutions for mazda diesels.

Northside 4x4 wrote:im not sure how that ecu determines what gear you are in. It could be algorithm's or microswitches.

I think it'll be comparing rpm to road speed. Hmmm those abs sensors could be an issue.
Unless of course you get into the ECU and if it runs different torque limiters for different gears, set them all the same.

KiwiBacon wrote:

Northside 4x4 wrote:im not sure how that ecu determines what gear you are in. It could be algorithm's or microswitches.

I think it'll be comparing rpm to road speed. Hmmm those abs sensors could be an issue.
Unless of course you get into the ECU and if it runs different torque limiters for different gears, set them all the same.

Good point. That would be another thing to check straight off the bat. Weather it effects the engine or only the abs system.

Mine never had abs is so i guess the previous abs comments not of concern ?

As for tuning standard ecu I thought it couldnt be tuned as its so limited by all the safty sensors needing the piggy back to trick ecu into leaving its safty zone.

If its tunable could I run say 30 - 35psi with a 3 inch dump, plate over the egr valve and remove attached plumbing open up intake with a free flowing air cleaner then through a snorkle, and take out any speed limiters so as i could have full power any gear?

offroader-rama wrote:Mine never had abs is so i guess the previous abs comments not of concern ?

As for tuning standard ecu I thought it couldnt be tuned as its so limited by all the safty sensors needing the piggy back to trick ecu into leaving its safty zone.

If its tunable could I run say 30 - 35psi with a 3 inch dump, plate over the egr valve and remove attached plumbing open up intake with a free flowing air cleaner then through a snorkle, and take out any speed limiters so as i could have full power any gear?

If it doesn't have ABS there'll be a speed sensor on the gearbox output or similar which it will use instead. It might not be critical at all, you won't know until you try.

Yes ECU's are tunable, these days maps are read and written through the OBD2 port with no need to actually touch the ECU. The dealers will even upload new maps at service as the factory tweaks different parts. If you're a navara owner they might cut the torque to save your clutch. All internet rumour of course.

There are very few turbos that will survive happily with 30-35psi, let alone ones with good drivability on a 2.5 diesel. Trust me, I'm looking for one. You need to nail down a performance spec first, then see what upgrades are needed to get there.

KiwiBacon wrote: If you're a navara owner they might cut the torque to save your clutch. All internet rumour of course. .

Talking of clutch's these run a dual mass clutch retail mazda around $3000 aftermarket supply only around $1700 depending on supplier there is a conversion kit taking back to a solid clutch same price but with a new fly wheel so as next time round its a lot cheaper!!

So i did some thinking here and the auto that they are optonal with is a 5 sp auto, a electrionc version of the c4 family so i was thinking later on I may opt for a manualized auto earlier 3-4sp auto havent looked to far into it but the thought is there!!

KiwiBacon wrote: There are very few turbos that will survive happily with 30-35psi, let alone ones with good drivability on a 2.5 diesel. Trust me, I'm looking for one. You need to nail down a performance spec first, then see what upgrades are needed to get there.

I was thinking compound using factory turbo as primary and puting say T28 as a secondary to make up the extra 10-15 psi would have to look as sizing but of the top of my head I think a T28 would be very close maybe just standed turbo from a r32 would do it.

Northside 4x4 wrote: I guess the only real benefit you would have with a piggyback, is you have purchased a physical object that can either be removed and used on your next project or sold. And the ability to run a few different boost/fuel/timing/throttle maps on a switch in the car.
Rather than just paying dyno time for the reflash.
Apart from that, standard ecu tuning and piggyback will give the same results.

Check out ecutek if your after a decent scan/logging capable tool for it though. They also offer tuning solutions for mazda diesels.

i spoke to ecutek ( scan tool $10,000 sorry out of my league) but they said they are working on a mazda bt50 system at present and that it will make the standed ecu as tunable as a motec, it would just need to go to a ecutek liecence dyno tuner, they believe it will be ready a few months. priced at around $2000 plus dyno time? sounds interesting I asked about bypassing all the other crap airbags brake lights etc and he said thay had never looked at it as its to be used on a going car !! same story however promiseing for upgrades down the track

offroader-rama wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote: There are very few turbos that will survive happily with 30-35psi, let alone ones with good drivability on a 2.5 diesel. Trust me, I'm looking for one. You need to nail down a performance spec first, then see what upgrades are needed to get there.

I was thinking compound using factory turbo as primary and puting say T28 as a secondary to make up the extra 10-15 psi would have to look as sizing but of the top of my head I think a T28 would be very close maybe just standed turbo from a r32 would do it.

The problem is weak shafts in many VNT turbos. It takes a few years of use to find out which ones are particularly bad. In a compound set you increase the stress on the small turbos shaft by the density increase you feed it. So if you feed it air 50% denser than atmospheric, the shaft has 50% more torque on it. If you've got a "slender shaft" version you'll find out pretty quick.

I'm going through this same process myself at the moment. But with a 2.2 litre nissan engine with a much more basic control system than yours. Just layout out plans and collecting parts at the moment. The turbo that looks best for my usage is a stock one upgraded by turbo-technics in the UK, bigger shaft and slightly bigger compressor wheel. But it'll be about $NZ2k landed and that's a bit hard to swallow. Second hand turbo around $400, time to failure on S/H turb, anyones guess.

Jeez... i wouldn't want to start a buid based on prommises of what's just around the corner..... i've seen to many dissapointments to believe that sort of blurb

And the statement "as good as a Motec" doesn't fill me with confidence - Motec ECU's can do some mindblowing things and their software is exceptional IMO.
I just can't see that a stock Mazda ECU whould be built to have the sheer power of a good Motec system.

IHMO sounds like sales talk.

P.S. - i have nothing to do with Motec.... but its good stuff.

MightyMouse wrote:Jeez... i wouldn't want to start a buid based on prommises of what's just around the corner..... i've seen to many dissapointments to believe that sort of blurb

And the statement "as good as a Motec" doesn't fill me with confidence - Motec ECU's can do some mindblowing things and their software is exceptional IMO.
I just can't see that a stock Mazda ECU whould be built to have the sheer power of a good Motec system.

IHMO sounds like sales talk.

P.S. - i have nothing to do with Motec.... but its good stuff.

probably right but there website is worth a read, but i think from above and count less calls I have made the factory commonrail ecu is very sophisticaited to start with so it would probably be just knowing how to manipulate it.
they have maps for the mitsibishi turbo diesels they have dyno charts showing results with mild tunes, good results no one had any wild tunes so anyones guess there !? as they were just every day drivers.

have a look
http://www.ecutek.com.au/ecu-products/reprogrammed-ecus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

KiwiBacon wrote: The problem is weak shafts in many VNT turbos. It takes a few years of use to find out which ones are particularly bad. In a compound set you increase the stress on the small turbos shaft by the density increase you feed it. So if you feed it air 50% denser than atmospheric, the shaft has 50% more torque on it. If you've got a "slender shaft" version you'll find out pretty quick.

I'm going through this same process myself at the moment. But with a 2.2 litre nissan engine with a much more basic control system than yours. Just layout out plans and collecting parts at the moment. The turbo that looks best for my usage is a stock one upgraded by turbo-technics in the UK, bigger shaft and slightly bigger compressor wheel. But it'll be about $NZ2k landed and that's a bit hard to swallow. Second hand turbo around $400, time to failure on S/H turb, anyones guess.

I had a pair of garret turbos custom made for me for my 454 BBC, t4 83ar rear housing 60ar front with a 60trim with custom 3 inch cast iron dumb suit v band with clamps, flanges etc, by a mob in canada last yr delievered to my door for around $1300 I would use them again in a flash.

http://www.blaastperformance.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cant really compare motec to oem, their design is light years apart.

Motec actually does have alot more compensation tables than most other ecu's. But still fall horribly short of OEM standards.

The only reason I would/have ever used motec over other brands is because of their data logging and comp tables.
With Autronic/Link/EMS you can tune a car to within 2% of its life and it will stay alive
With a motec you can tune it within 1% of its life and it will stay alive + Awesome datalogging but at a very premium price.

As they are the only company that is going to attempt to make a diesel ecu as far as im aware, I dont see them making it any cheaper than Bosch's equivalent.

offroader - Even with Bosch and Motec's offerings. The fact still remains, you must find someone versed in tuning CR diesels with their software to get nice drive ability and good power. I would be starting down the factory path until proven that it cannot be done. All it will require is some expenditure and time on your behalf to get everything wired up with the scan tool and start unplugging everything un-necessary to your needs.

Also, DTC codes and Limp can generally be turned off through ecutek.
Things like 02 sensor faults and overboost limp, and the like which may cause a CEL or Limp mode can normally be remapped to either not show a code, or simply allow higher figures, to not ever causing safety map engagement.

My vote is run the mazda ECU. As long as you have all the required bits then there is no reason why it can't run. At most i would think you would need is engine ECU, BCM, maybe cluster. The CAN bus may pass through the other modules, but that doesn't mean we can't bypass them.
Security immobiliser system would need to be wired in aswell.

As long as we can get good wiring diagrams for it (should not be a prob), I would be willing to give it a crack. I would need the vehicle here (1/2hr south of Gympie), And would not want to be put on a deadline, saying that it won't sit here for months and months. I specialise in custom work, Not scared of a challenge. Can't be to much harder than the Duramax.
Give me a call during the week if you want to go this way

The disadvantage to running aftermarket is you will not get the maps as good as factory without spending huge hours on dyno.

Steve

offroader-rama wrote:I had a pair of garret turbos custom made for me for my 454 BBC, t4 83ar rear housing 60ar front with a 60trim with custom 3 inch cast iron dumb suit v band with clamps, flanges etc, by a mob in canada last yr delievered to my door for around $1300 I would use them again in a flash.

http://www.blaastperformance.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If they are in Canada, the only VNT they'll know about is the VW TDi's. I think Europe is the only place to find that expertise, with the bonus that they have used cores to build turbos from. The prices in europe are a bargain if you're earning Euro or Sterling.

My dibs is get it up and running, then start modifying. Anyone can say I can do it, but makining it happen...thats another thing.
Knock out some dyno figures, get all your incidentals sorted...then go for power, I think your jumping the gun. My 2c.


Andy

killalux wrote:My vote is run the mazda ECU. As long as you have all the required bits then there is no reason why it can't run. At most i would think you would need is engine ECU, BCM, maybe cluster. The CAN bus may pass through the other modules, but that doesn't mean we can't bypass them.
Security immobiliser system would need to be wired in aswell.

As long as we can get good wiring diagrams for it (should not be a prob), I would be willing to give it a crack. I would need the vehicle here (1/2hr south of Gympie), And would not want to be put on a deadline, saying that it won't sit here for months and months. I specialise in custom work, Not scared of a challenge. Can't be to much harder than the Duramax.
Give me a call during the week if you want to go this way

The disadvantage to running aftermarket is you will not get the maps as good as factory without spending huge hours on dyno.

Steve

You are not going to get a better offer than this.

Factory ECU better than a good Motec.... hmmmm.......i'm sure the touring car guys will all be lining up to pull theirs out and put factory back in.....
However a good tune on a factory ECU is better than a badly tuned aftermarket unit... but as for sheer processing power aftermarket ECU's like the Bosch or Motec have the grunt.

MightyMouse wrote:Factory ECU better than a good Motec.... hmmmm.......i'm sure the touring car guys will all be lining up to pull theirs out and put factory back in.....
However a good tune on a factory ECU is better than a badly tuned aftermarket unit... but as for sheer processing power aftermarket ECU's like the Bosch or Motec have the grunt.

All depends what you're trying to do really. Factory ECU's priority to keep the engine running and meet the ever tightening emissions controls. Aftermarket ECU's are all about extracting maximum potential and allowing lots of different tunes.