Outer Limits 4x4 Board

XTREME MMM wrote: David Metcalfe, runs Xtreme electric motor Sport which is the home of ARB Xtreme electric Winch Challenge Series, Xtreme International & 4WD Angel Adventure supporting ARB and Warn

this last post is a shit stir and shouldn't be taken to heart.

i've heard (could be false) that a pto hybrid winch in qld (which is uber fast) got told by dave that if he sold 10 of his winches to the public (as to classify it as a 'production' winch or similar, my wording could be incorrect) that he would be allowed to enter MMM comps, is this true dave?

not shit stirring but curious as to the answer mate

def90 wrote:i've heard (could be false) that a pto hybrid winch in qld (which is uber fast) got told by dave that if he sold 10 of his winches to the public (as to classify it as a 'production' winch or similar, my wording could be incorrect) that he would be allowed to enter MMM comps, is this true dave?

not shit stirring but curious as to the answer mate

This post has gone completely away from where it started.

These are my last comments, if you want to have a go at the organisers, start a new thread but as I am honest enough to use my name on a post please do the same and don't hide behind a "Secret Name", because 99% of the people here have no idea who they are talking too.

If that comment was made it would have been 5plus years ago when I was looking at having off the shelf type "production winches", this did not happen, there were also going to be penalties for highly modified winches, this also did not happen.

I am not getting into anything here, but some of the comments made about events and the sqillions of dollars that us event organisers receive from sponsors and all the best goodies going for free to us, I for one would love to see it.

The last 4 years (at least) the ARB XWC entry fees and any sponsor support that I get has not even covered set up costs at these events, and I am not even including my cost involved in set up.

So what am I doing it for? The money, not likely. Enjoy doing it, yes. Does it cost me (Xtreme 4x4 Sport) to put on one of these event, bloody hell it does.

At this point in time, this is my last year. So I would suggest that those that want to have a go at event organisers get of their arse and start running events, because until you do some of your comments to me and other organisers are worth shit.

Cheers
David

rockcrawler31 wrote:

XTREME MMM wrote: David Metcalfe, runs Xtreme electric motor Sport which is the home of ARB Xtreme electric Winch Challenge Series, Xtreme International & 4WD Angel Adventure supporting ARB and Warn

this last post is a shit stir and shouldn't be taken to heart.

I am very proud of what I have achieved over the last 15 plus years, and the amount that I have driven the competition scene here in Australia with my events, a lot of other events have been made possible by my input into the 4wd scene. I will miss it when the time finally comes to say goodbye. At this stage in my life I have nothing to prove, been there done that and yes I have the Tshirt, so when some comments are made it could make my good byes sooner then later.

Yes I do take things to heart.

I can see that you have never organised an event by the comments you make of my sponsors. This could be a reason that some competitors find it hard to get sponsors.

Also for your information Warn is not a sponsor of mine so please get your facts straight before you make another comment.

O by the way have you ever competed in a winch challenge event?

Cheers
David

As you have rightly pointed out, no i have not personally ever organised an event. However i have had long conversations and personal friendships with a few people who have done so and in all my conversations with them they were progressive, easy to talk to and listened to what i had to say without telling me that i was some kind of noob and taking your high and mighty line of attitude.

At no point did i ever say that you or any other organiser should do shit for free, in fact i clearly stated that i considered it fair that you should be able to make some money or at least break even for your efforts. My point was that YOUR attitude towards appeasing sponsors in only one area of equipment selection was strangling innovation and opportunities for competitors.

No i have never competed personally in a winch challenge. Attended many, but competed never. Why? 2 reasons.

1. Basing an event around ONE aspect of 4wd'ing is retarded. It's like starting up an event/series/style solely called the "massive tyres challenge" where people race to see how big a tyre they can fit on their car at all costs with all other skills coming second. As long as you can fit 235" tyres on your suzuki then you're in with a shot. Sounds fawktarded doesn't it?

2. The one time i tried to enter a winch challenge i was told in no uncertain terms by the organiser (guess who) that i wasn't welcome. why? because i had a PTO winch. Now i was under NO illusions that my choice of winch would put me behind the 8 ball. I KNEW i would be uncompetitive, but it was what i had and all i wanted to do was drive my junk fast and have a good time. It is YOU and your closed minded, formulaic bullshit that stopped me and several others (i can list a few who also wanted to have a go but you weren't interested) from joining your style.

Since then i've dropped a bit of cash on another style of car and racing that lets me go fast (i'll still winch but it's part of the experience, not ALL of it). Your loss, our gain.

Why is this relevant to the OP an the original post?

Because bushy is thinking laterally, innovating, and trying to use and modify existing technology along with engineering and driving experience to build something that isn't already in use as an alternative. But should he be successfull, thanks to you and your 15 years of closed bloody mindedness he'll have a bastard of a time getting the opportunity to prove it.

rockcrawler31 wrote:As you have rightly pointed out, no i have not personally ever organised an event. However i have had long conversations and personal friendships with a few people who have done so and in all my conversations with them they were progressive, easy to talk to and listened to what i had to say without telling me that i was some kind of noob and taking your high and mighty line of attitude.


At no point did i ever say that you or any other organiser should do shit for free, in fact i clearly stated that i considered it fair that you should be able to make some money or at least break even for your efforts. My point was that YOUR attitude towards appeasing sponsors in only one area of equipment selection was strangling innovation and opportunities for competitors.

No i have never competed personally in a winch challenge. Attended many, but competed never. Why? 2 reasons.

1. Basing an event around ONE aspect of 4wd'ing is retarded. It's like starting up an event/series/style solely called the "massive tyres challenge" where people race to see how big a tyre they can fit on their car at all costs with all other skills coming second. As long as you can fit 235" tyres on your suzuki then you're in with a shot. Sounds fawktarded doesn't it?

2. The one time i tried to enter a winch challenge i was told in no uncertain terms by the organiser (guess who) that i wasn't welcome. why? because i had a PTO winch. Now i was under NO illusions that my choice of winch would put me behind the 8 ball. I KNEW i would be uncompetitive, but it was what i had and all i wanted to do was drive my junk fast and have a good time. It is YOU and your closed minded, formulaic bullshit that stopped me and several others (i can list a few who also wanted to have a go but you weren't interested) from joining your style.

Since then i've dropped a bit of cash on another style of car and racing that lets me go fast (i'll still winch but it's part of the experience, not ALL of it). Your loss, our gain.

Why is this relevant to the OP an the original post?

Because bushy is thinking laterally, innovating, and trying to use and modify existing technology along with engineering and driving experience to build something that isn't already in use as an alternative. But should he be successfull, thanks to you and your 15 years of closed bloody mindedness he'll have a bastard of a time getting the opportunity to prove it.

Have at any point have I called you a noob? or said he cannot use it. Here is my current rules for the winches this is for the Production Class. So please note that the Xtreme Class is exempt from most of these rules in Section 15I1.

So no one is being stopped from modifying a production winch as what Bushy wants to do. I was just giving some advise about the way I would go, but it appears that if it is different to yours it is not worth it.

Have fun driving fast and using your winch sometimes (hope you learned something watching). Don't the winch challenge guys do that already?


5I. Winch
I1. (X4WD, SxS and Buggies - N/A)
 Winch is to be electric and have one motor.
 Fitted to the front bullbar.
 Only one forward mounted winch.
 Reinforcing the rear of winch is allowed.
 Brake shaft may have end cap fitted.
 Contactor pack allowed.
 Wider drums / Air free spool.
 12 or 24 volt.
Not Approved
 Aftermarket electric motors that require adaptor plates or any modification to winch housing to fit.
 Modification or replacement of original internal components, etc shafts and gears.
 PTO or hydraulic winches, unless approved by Competition Manager. (X4WD, SxS and Buggies included)
I2. Winches shall be fitted with an automatic brake.
I3. Winch rope must be in serviceable condition.
I4. Winch rope hooks must have working safety catch.
I5. Owner’s responsibility that the synthetic rope is rated the same or better than the winch specifications.
I6. Winch ropes are to be fully spooled at the start of each SS.
I7. Winch rope is allowed to be wrapped at the finish of an SS. The protruding horns must not be pointy and be made of material with a minimum radius of 30mm, length and distance apart is optional.
I8. Rigging will be done to the safe working capacity of the equipment.
I9. Winch rope dampener is to be secured to the hook and rope. When a snatch block is used another dampener is to be placed in the center third of the rope between the vehicle and the snatch block at start of winching.

Dave, correct me If Im wrong, but I believe in the past atleast one defender from the UK was allowed to compete in the outback challenge even though it did not have an internal roll cage (as with most UK rigs, exos are fine for their comps)

I remeber when you posted up rules for a beginner type event, straigh away it made my vehicle useless (havind hyd winch and being a defender ute no room for a internal cage and mounting quite difficult due to the body design) unless I spent many $1000's, which seemd to be the opposite of what you were trying to achieve.

uninformed wrote:Dave, correct me If Im wrong, but I believe in the past atleast one defender from the UK was allowed to compete in the outback challenge even though it did not have an internal roll cage (as with most UK rigs, exos are fine for their comps)

Yes you are very correct in this statement. Some of the rules were also done to comply with Transport when the vehicles were registered. I and other orgenisers have also let Landrovers compete with properly constructed XO cages. All others need to be internal. Just look what CAMS or CCDA require.

I remeber when you posted up rules for a beginner type event, straigh away it made my vehicle useless (havind hyd winch and being a defender ute no room for a internal cage and mounting quite difficult due to the body design) unless I spent many $1000's, which seemd to be the opposite of what you were trying to achieve.

Standard Class has always been electric winches unless approved by myself. It is a pity that safety is based on cost, because I am quite sure that there are defenders around with internal cages, but as you say bit more costly and bit more time needed.

It was near impossible to get standard vehicles to come and play because all the mods put them into the Xtreme Class. But everyone did the same SS.

Cheers
David

Thanks Dave, and yes Safety is the priority. There are a few defenders getting around with internal cages, but none of these are stock truck cab (2 door ute body) I know there are reasons, But the exo cages from the UK arent junk and seem to do the job over there.

Re winches, there would be a few pto and hyd winches fitted to vehicles that would be perfectly safe and not world beaters. These people im thinking would be very reluctant to change their whole set up out to replace for electric.

hard to please all the people all the time...........

uninformed wrote:Thanks Dave, and yes Safety is the priority. There are a few defenders getting around with internal cages, but none of these are stock truck cab (2 door ute body) I know there are reasons, But the exo cages from the UK arent junk and seem to do the job over there.

Re winches, there would be a few pto and hyd winches fitted to vehicles that would be perfectly safe and not world beaters. These people im thinking would be very reluctant to change their whole set up out to replace for electric.

hard to please all the people all the time...........

Talk to me about an XO and I will listen.

As for the PTO winches, the main reason for having this stand is so that Spirit winches do not come on to the scene, I think you will also find that CCDA rules are the same or similar to mine regards winches.

Off the self PTO's are welcome after inspection. There is a team with a hydraulic winch on in the XWC Series

Cheers
David

thanks Dave, sounds very reasonable.

I have no input or interest in the gods winches

I do, however, gave one of these old Thomas winches on my buggy.

Good, reliable old thing. Has saved me falling to my death numerous times.

Only problem with them is that once the gearbox gets smashed into rocks a bit it's hard to get them to stay sealed...

Hi Wendle

Whatever happened to the truck you were building? the rat looking thing with a vintage cab?

After competing in a number of Dave's events and also spectating/helping out at his and other winch events. I can tell you that Dave's events have always been on the fair side of the regulations. Having not been affiliated with the CCDA allowed him to relax some of the rules they had/have in place and allowed more competitors to enter based on a couple of clauses in his rules. The main one being "at the descresion of the event manager".
I can tell you straight away that if someone has a vehicle that does not fully comply with the rules and specifications that he already has in his rules then he consults as many people involved in the competition as he can to then make a decision on whether to allow it. I'm sure he also consults his insurance company as well. Some of the changes that Dave has made under his own rules and regs have now been implemented by many other competitions around the country. He was the first to again push for entry level classes at a time that these guys were being pushed out of most competitions such as Out Back Challenge which has become a farce.
BUT.... Although Dave will do what he can to include as many as he can in competitions. He won't compromise on the fundamentals of each class such as tire size etc. I can remember standing beside Paul Vanderhorst (Spelling) while he used his foot to jam the tire size gauge over a competitor's tire that was clearly outside limits while other less known competitors had to go and shave some of the OD off their tires to fit within their rules. Now that is unfair.

Milo. You are being unfair to Dave and way out of line. You have a bias against "string pullers" as you put it. As a competitor, you should support all forms of the sport so that we can build on what we have. This is not like you to be so close minded about a subject like this. You are letting yourself fall into the very same cliche' that you are normally so vocal about. You know, the silver platter offroad boys or the close minded string pullers or rock jockeys. You've commented before about 'string pullers' thinking their form of competition was the only one to have or the silver platter offroad boys thinking their shit don't stink as they drive around in their bought vehicles paid for by their trust funds. You are doing exactly the same thing you complain about. Time to open the other eye mate.

Its actually a funny moment to see you become the person you used to complain about. Simple fact is that the comps have rules and if you want to be part of that comp then build your truck to suit the rules or gain an exemption. Don't just build your truck and expect the rules to automatically fit what you've built. The rules are for the comp. Not you personally. You guys are the tail trying to wag the dog.

Such a storm in a teacup!!!!!!!!!!

Simple logic was that if there were enough trucks with a certain type of winch (or other mod) around that wanted to do comps there would be a class specifically for you don’t you think?? The guys who run events would, should and could make money if there were enough competitors of a certain type.........Hence the CCDA (or Daves similar) Production class. I do not understand for the life of me why anyone would expect a person (in any type or level of offroad competition) to "break even" on an event. Bloody oath they should make money.........maybe then there would be more competitions.

Another simple fact is that there is class available in Dave's or CCDA ruled events which your truck/s are eligible for - Challenge!!!!!!

Now I race challenge with an underpowered, underwinched vehicle against guys with much better cars but thats the way the cookie crumbles I just don’t have the coin to have the same tools as these guys. But its fun and if anything more of a challenge for me to try to be competitive.

If I wanted a level playing field I would quite simply build a truck that was suitable for production class......including the winch. and thats what production class is design to be, an even competition that doesn't cost the world. (On a side note the new CCDA V10 rules just release for comment will now allow ANY single motor winch not just an 8724.......good or bad decision only time will tell)

Now before you guys up there start crying anymore perhaps you need to be more thankful that you have competitions at all. We have had one comp here in Vic for the last 2-3 years and it was on flat ground, and the water had such abrasive sand in it that most guys did, or have since blown motors due to seal’s being just worn away ...........and you know what, nearly every one of us will be back this year because its all we have got - EVEN IF WE HAVE TO ALL CHANGE OUR WINCH TO DO IT!!!!!!

So how about you blokes that are whinging be thankful that you can even have events to go to locally rather than personally attacking the blokes that actually make it happen.

Dave (or any other event organiser) come down to Vic mate and run an event with any rules you like, I'll be there.

toughnut wrote:
Milo you're being a c*nt!

I wasn't going to post in here again regarding that stuff but Yeah i'll wear that. I've probably allowed my personal grudge against a man cloud my vision.

rockcrawler31 wrote:

toughnut wrote:
Milo you're being a c*nt!

I wasn't going to post in here again regarding that stuff but Yeah i'll wear that. I've probably allowed my personal grudge against a man cloud my vision.

Stop putting words in my mout....... post... Not calling you anything that noone else calls you.

What's winching?

Is that some sort of Asian dude who keeps beating you at the casino?

rockcrawler31 wrote:Hi Wendle

Whatever happened to the truck you were building? the rat looking thing with a vintage cab?

Been my daily driver for nearly a year



Really off topic now LOL...

Thats Fat

Two months later....

Wow. Didn't I cause some hatred and a lot of words up above.

So - I haven't done a thing with this Thomas since.
Now that round 2 is happening in Manilla in a few months time, I'm trying to get keen.
I grabbed a high mount and doing a standard normal thing that everyone else does...
Had to paint it first before modifying it. Most people leave painting to the last. Nup, not me. I do it first up.


However, I took one look at the Thomas last night, ripped the lid off it. And *walla*. Is it just me or does it lend itself to a twin motor so DEAD SET EASY?
In its form in the below photo its ratio is 50:1. Automatic brake built in with its worm drive. Already is free spool; just needs an air ram. And these things can be picked up on Ebay for $50.00




If I get this thing running, and half proven to be safe, can it be allowed to be used in XWC? Or as a reverse winch?

bushy555 wrote:Two months later....

Wow. Didn't I cause some hatred and a lot of words up above.

So - I haven't done a thing with this Thomas since.
Now that round 2 is happening in Manilla in a few months time, I'm trying to get keen.
I grabbed a high mount and doing a standard normal thing that everyone else does...
Had to paint it first before modifying it. Most people leave painting to the last. Nup, not me. I do it first up.


However, I took one look at the Thomas last night, ripped the lid off it. And *walla*. Is it just me or does it lend itself to a twin motor so DEAD SET EASY?
In its form in the below photo its ratio is 50:1. Automatic brake built in with its worm drive. Already is free spool; just needs an air ram. And these things can be picked up on Ebay for $50.00




If I get this thing running, and half proven to be safe, can it be allowed to be used in XWC? Or as a reverse winch?

YES