Outer Limits 4x4 Board

For anyone interested in the gearing combinations with the crawler for different boxes, here is a long list. for R380/LT230 LT85/LT230 and IIA boxes/T-cases.

The colums are OVERALL RATIO / % reduction / Gears engaged (C=crawler) - The LT85 numbers uses the Isuzu high range (1.003:1), and the R380 numbers use the Tdi box ratios and the 1.41:1 Defender High Range.

SIIA with Suffix B T-Case Gears
Ratio %reduction compared to 1st low
125.7 257 1CL
77.5 158 2CL
52.4 107 3CL
50.0 102 1CH
48.9 100 Std 1st Low
34.9 71 4CL
30.8 63 2CH
30.2 62 Std 2nd Low
20.8 43 3CH
20.4 42 Std 3rd Low
13.9 28 4CH
13.6 28 Std 4th Low

SIIA with stock T-Case Gears
102.2 257 1CL
63.0 158 2CL
50.0 126 1CH
42.6 107 3CL
39.8 100 Std 1st Low
30.8 77 2CH
28.4 71 4CL
24.5 62 Std 2nd Low
20.8 52 3CH
16.6 42 Std 3rd Low
13.9 35 4CH
11.0 28 Std 4th Low

LT85/LT230 - 1.003:1 high range
110.2 257 1CL
65.8 153 2CL
43.4 101 3CL
42.9 100 Std 1st Low
33.3 78 1CH
30.2 70 4CL
25.6 60 Std 2nd Low
19.9 46 2CH
16.9 39 Std 3rd Low
13.1 31 3CH
11.8 27 Std 4th Low
9.1 21 4CH


R380/LT230 - 1.41:1 high range
102.4 257 1CL
64.3 162 2CL
43.5 109 1CH
39.8 100 Std 1st Low
39.3 99 3CL
30.2 76 4CL
27.3 69 2CH
25.0 63 Std 2nd Low
16.7 42 3CH
15.3 38 Std 3rd Low
12.8 32 4CH
11.8 30 Std 4th Low

R380/LT230 with 4.7:1 diffs - 1.41:1 high range
135.9 257 1CL
85.4 161 2CL
57.7 109 1CH
52.9 100 Std 1st Low
52.1 99 3CL
40.1 76 4CL
36.3 69 2CH
33.2 63 Std 2nd Low
22.1 42 3CH
20.3 38 Std 3rd Low
17.0 32 4CH
15.6 29 Std 4th Low

Hey Ben,

For the LT230s, you should note down the high range ratio you are using since there are a variety available and that effects the crawler/high range ratios.

John

After discussing my proposed conversion with a friend who is a tool maker there are 2 areas that could prove to be a problem.
the first one is the spudshaft that would connect the 5 speed rover mainshaft to the quadratrac input gear. I determined that a female sleeve with the Rover 10 spline would need to be about 125mm long. He told me that anyone with a ten spline broach would not be keen on going beyond 75mm, so the internal splines would have to be individually cut with a slotting machine at about 10 times the cost.
The second area of concern is the reworked LT230 transfercase input gear. this must have the original mainshaft splines machined out and be further bored out to 40mm to clear the spud shaft. A splined tail must also be welded to this gear to engage with the quadratrac output gear. It would not be satisfactory to sell a kit that uses reworked secondhand mainshaft gears so a new gear must be supplied with each kit.
These two components alone would push the price of the kit beyond what most enthusiasts would consider reasonable.
In my opinion, a company such as Maxidrive, McNamara or Rocky Mountain could produce the conversion kit at an affordable price if they had the will, but it would probably be too difficult and expensive for an
individual without equipment to organise except for '' one off '' private conversions.
Bill.

So Bill,

How was it being done on the Series boxes? What you have explained is basically what I assumed would need to be done. I, personally, had thought we would be talking around $1500 for the conversion bits, which I think would sell. What is your feeling on cost? Still cheaper than a Maxidrive low range kit and much more usefull.

Like you say, someone should try talking with Mr. McNamara and Mr. Story and see if there is any interest.

John

Yes, I dont want this idea to die
There has to be someone with the facilaties and thats willing to use them

Lets all go down to maxi drive and riot

red90 wrote:Hey Ben,

For the LT230s, you should note down the high range ratio you are using since there are a variety available and that effects the crawler/high range ratios.

John

Cheers John, fixed it.

red90 wrote:How was it being done on the Series boxes?

I, personally, had thought we would be talking around $1500 for the conversion bits, which I think would sell.
John

Correct me if I am wrong Bill, but for the series or LT95 crawler a broken fairey OD was cheaply obtained, which provided all the "hard to make bits". So if you could get hold of a broken R380 OD it would mean you could probably do the conversion yourself cheaply.

I agree with John that even that sort of money would be a reasonable price and would sell. After all the Ashcroft kits were selling in reasonable numbers at a much higher price. The MD low range kit is $1800 odd and you get 30% reduction not 157% reduction. Just the adaptor for toyota dual cases is $2000 odd isn't it???

If Maxi Drive or Macnamara aren't interested, what about Marks 4x4???

I posted a link to this thread here, there is some interest in the US too if this gets off the ground.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284695


Bill or Nigel, do you have any pics of the two crawler boxes already in existence???

I DONT CARE WHO DOES IT BUT THIS HAS TO BE DONE I have already wanked off numerous times and now take this idea away from me and wankin will never be the same again

I have both a 1.22 High Range LT230 and a complete Qtrac transfer case ready for someone to get this kit underway
Anyone who wishes to help me in my venture step forward or forever hold your peice

AnthonyP wrote:Anyone who wishes to help me in my venture step forward or forever hold your peice

PLEASE STOP - FAR TOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!

Go and hassle the Haultech boys. I'm sure if Sam and Chuck think there is money to be made they will be interested - and since the all run LT230's on their buggy's... They would have to farm out the gear cutting/splining... And Bill said he is happy to help out with the adaptor design, whoever makes it.

I might have a word with themn I beleive Ruff was showin abit of interest b4. ANd they do currently have the LT230 of mine with them... I could just drop round there with the Qtrac and say "start fabbing fawkers"

I have been real lazy in getting my POS round to Rod for the mods one day it will happen, but in the lead up I will talk about the Crawler box and no doubt they will jump in here soon to comment

Bill, what do you think the lifespan and heat buildup of the quadratrack T-case would be like if engaged on the road for long periods as a splitter (thinking about gearing options if I go ahead with the forestrover project).

First off, yes red 90 and Ben, I made my series adaptor and Nigels Lt95 one utilising a modified input shaft, mainshaft adaptor and output gear from scrap Fairey overdrives, and machine the adaptor plates from 35mm thick aluminium tooling plate. If there were such a thing as Fairey overdrives for LT230's I could do the same. Most of the components needed for this conversion kit are already made for the Rocky Mountain overdrive in Canada. As I have explained to some members in PMs, There is nothing particularly scientific about the conversion. It just needs an engineering company that doesn't have much work on that would be prepared to take it up.
Ben, I think the Hilux double T/case adaptor is more like AUS $600 not including reduction box.
Ben I think the Quadratrac would still be the best transmission component on the vehicle when fitted to any Rover but as a splitter I think 1:1 and 2.57:1 would be too big a jump. I dont think the heat build up should be any greater than say the planetaries in the RangeRover Borg Warner chain drive transfercase which are intermeshing all the time whether in high or low range. As I said on a previous post, the quadratrac planetaries are locked together in high range and don't generate much heat.
I will try to find the time to remove the crawler from my LandRover in the next week and photograph the assembly.
Bill.

daddylonglegs wrote: A splined tail must also be welded to this gear to engage with the quadratrac output gear. It would not be satisfactory to sell a kit that uses reworked secondhand mainshaft gears so a new gear must be supplied with each kit.
Bill.

What about driving back onto the back ofthe input gear where the dog clutch looking thing is (im guesing that these "teeth" are there to drive power out to a power take off unit. I would guess that these teeth would be strong enough although could be wrong.

Also if you were to make this crawler box to suit the ZF auto you could just use the factory spud shaft that adapts to the back of the auto and just weld whatever you want onto the end of it.

Another planetry setup that you could use is the one from a range rover chain driven viscous transfer case. Its low range unit is also seperate with its own shifter and its got plenty of steel to weld an output to engauge back onto the rear of the tranfer input gear. Also this plantry has the stock 10 spline input so if you were adapting it to the auto you would just get the stock spud shaft and cut it in half and extend it. This would give a really low low range with an extra 3.3:1 as opposed to the 2.7 from the BW case.

Sam

Sam, because of the way that the LT230 PtO dog teeth are cut, I dont think they are anywhere near strong enough to cope with the torque multiplication of engine torque x 1st gear ratio x 2.57:1 or 3.3 :1.
The Quadratrac is almost a self contained bolt on reduction unit wheras the planetary unit housing from a Rangey chain drive t/case is integral with the rear half of the transfercase, so a new planetary housing would need to be cast/fabricated. The input shaft of the Quadratrac is also ten spline and almost identical to the R380 mainshaft splines, but to attach a spudshaft to the R380 requires that the LT230 transfercase gear must be bored out to about 40 mm inside diameter in which case the pTO dog teeth will drop off, so a larger diameter(70mm} tail section needs to be welded on to the back of this gear. The diameter of the spline that engages with the Quadratrac output gear is 70mm so the rear bearing for the transfercase input gear is replaced by a tapered roller bearing measuring 70x120x20 mm which would be fitted further back in the adaptor plate. The Quadratrac also has a PTO facility at the back.
The only advantage the RangeRover planetaries would have is that they are small enough so that you can retain the standard LT230 handbrake assembly instead of having to adapt a series handbrake.
Bill.

Sam & Bill you guys both have great knowledge keep it up

Sam as mentioned earlier I have both the lT230 (out of the rangie rod has) and a complete Qtrac not to mention I also have the current complete Borgwarner viscous transfer currently in my rangie that I am willing to sacrafice if you do decide to go for the reduction from that.
I was gonna give You or Ruff a ring in regards to this but if you could keep it here for everyone then maybe all the added interest will really get things moving....

I dont really wanna just ring Mal Story and start yabering as he probably think..."what the fark is this guy on about" some one like you Sam (or Bill) would be the better people to get intouch with him. But I personally think that u Haultech boys are more than capable enough of getting sumthing like this underway

It has just occurred to me that when David Ashcroft was making his crawler box using Rangey BorgWarner planetaries, the ratio was around 2.62:1 not 3.3:1 as Sam has stated. This suggests that in the Rangey t/case, further reduction was gained in the sprockets of the chain drive, but it has been a long time since I had one of those apart so I am not sure.
I have spoken to Mal Story on the phone on a couple of occasions over the years and I think that he is an amiable and enthusiastic bloke whose engineering knowledge exceeds mine by a factor of at least 10 . but he wouldn't know me if he tripped over me, so I doubt that he would be influenced by me ringing him, prattling on about planetary gearsets and adaptors.
Bill.

Well Mal is sort of a family friend, he was mates with my uncle who had the first ever set of maxi drives installed on his discovery this set broke both a front and rear axle at the same time .

Any ways I might go in there one day and see if actually talking face to face and maybe ordering afew niggly bits from him at the process gets his interest

I could always walk in there with the lt230 in hand and slap it on the bench pull out the qtrac reduction unit and some pictures and say "YOU FIX" and slap a wad of cash down next to it all


edit: the only thing i am afraid of is if Mal does make this up and get a kit produced I beleive it will be atleast three time the cost everyone is thinking Mal likes to make some cash and isnt gonna offer a 250% reduction option for around the same price as his current 30% reduction gear for the LT230
I cant see him lowering the price of his current reduction gear to make thing more just...... so I think people will be looking at around 2500-3000 from Mal (i could be completely wrong) this I would assume include everything except the original LT230.... and maybe for just the adpator kit (no reduction unit) you would be looking at 2000-2500.
Its is in my mind still worth it and I beleive if he did make the kit it would be of good quality and the handbrake assembly would be second to none.

On the other hand I think if the Haultech boys did this they would be able to considerably benifit from testing on their own buggies, and although the kit wouldn't be as bling bling it would work, and thats all that matters right


Anthony

The biggest thing that slows me down from trying to do it is that with an extra 3.3:1 or 2.7:1 reduction really is too low for the sort of driving that we do. All of our buggies are running stock 3.3:1 low range and work fine.

Sam

From enquiries I have made around various engineering firms in Melbourne and Sams response here, this project doesn't really stand much chance of getting off the ground in Australia simply because our economy is booming , Manufacturing ,and even people like my mate who works from home have more work than they can handle. Five years ago I would have had a wide choice of firms eager to take something like this on, just to give their workers something to do.
If the guys in the US don't organise something then it is probably going to come down to keen individuals doing their own conversions at high cost.
Bill

daddylonglegs wrote:It has just occurred to me that when David Ashcroft was making his crawler box using Rangey BorgWarner planetaries, the ratio was around 2.62:1 not 3.3:1 as Sam has stated. This suggests that in the Rangey t/case, further reduction was gained in the sprockets of the chain drive, but it has been a long time since I had one of those apart so I am not sure. Bill.

You must be right Bill the ECR website gives a ratio of 2.69:1

There is some interest in the US for this to go ahead (shame it won't happen in Australia). ECR's site says that it is still searching for an alternative to the Ashcroft crawler. And BCB have made lots of similar adaptors in the past, maybe they will be interested.

Ben,It may still happen in Australia. A couple of forum members have expressed interest in having a look doing a small production run. It wll probably depend on how much can be done ''in house'' and how much has to be farmed out.

Bill.

Sounds good Bill, looks like things are progressing in the US as well,

If you can provide any assistance to Paul (PTSchram)...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... 695&page=2

Yes Ben, I am surprised at the increased interest on the pirate forum in the past week. What firm does Paul manage? I haven't registered with pirate yet as every time i get on to their site ,after a minute a Runtime error window pops up and I have to click off.
Bill.

This is the website for Paul's business.

http://www.btlrovers.com/

ecr has fitted the underdrive to a few lt230s [size=24][/size][size=12][/size][size=24][/size]why wont they do it anymore

supanovarover wrote:ecr has fitted the underdrive to a few lt230s why wont they do it anymore

As I posted in the thread you started, the underdrive you are talking about WAS made by Ashcroft in the UK, but not any more - IT IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE.

That is why.

I have at last found the time to remove the crawler box from my series 2A
I will take some photos with a digital camera during the week and post them, but first I will gather some standard Fairey overdrive parts to show how I have altered them for the conversion.
For the LT230, it has occurred to me that some parts from a second Quadratrac could possibly be modified to make the spud shaft to extend the R380 mainshaft to reach into the reduction unit. If you look at the exploded view of the Quadratrac that Red90 posted on page 1, the parts described as ''Sungear'' and ''Shaft extension'' are what I am refering to. I do not know if these parts are even available as spares from BorgWaner, but if they were available cheaply the spudshaft could be made by machining the helical gear off the Sungear, pressing the shaft extension halfway into the splined sleeve and pressing the sleeve onto the R380 mainshaft. I do not have a spare reduction unit so I can't be certain that this idea would work but it does look feasible.
Bill.

Sorry, that descriiption was meant to read ''reduction mainshaft'' not ''shaft extension''
Bill

Bill, what difference would there be if wanting to use this with a ZF auto? Is it still feasible?