Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Didn't the Premier brand winch do OK in the 4x4 mag tests on the Brawn winch test bed?
These have been lifted from the recent comparo.

9000lb Premier, 3.4kw motor, 156:1 gearing:
No load line speed - 6.8m/m drawing 57 amps
6,000lbs - 2.5m/m drawing 215 amps
9,000lbs - 1.9m/m drawing 276 amps

XD9000lb Warn, 3.4kw motor, 156:1 gearing:
No load line speed - 11m/m drawing 80 amps
6,000lbs - 1.9m/m drawing 335 amps
9,000lbs - 0.9m/m drawing 434 amps

9000lb Magnum, 3.2kw motor, 261:1 gearing:
No load line speed - 8.1m/m drawing 118 amps
6,000lbs - 2.1m/m drawing 385 amps
9,000lbs - 0.9m/m drawing 530 amps

ZR9500lb Brawn, 4.0kw motor, 265:1 gearing:
No load line speed - 6.6m/m drawing 60 amps
6,000lbs - 2.3m/m drawing 236 amps
9,000lbs - 1.4m/m drawing 351 amps

9500lb TJM Ox, 4.1kw motor, 265:1 gearing:
No load line speed - 5.6m/m drawing 80 amps
6,000lbs - 2.3m/m drawing 264 amps
9,000lbs - 1.7m/m drawing 332 amps

9500lb T-Max, 4.1kw motor, 265:1 gearing:
No load line speed - 4.8m/m drawing 69 amps
6,000lbs - 2.3m/m drawing 260 amps
9,000lbs - 1.8m/m drawing 339 amps


Brawn (sorry Colin), Ox and T-Max all come from the same mother. They're all a little different to each other though, as you can see. Brawn is much lighter.
Premier looks like a better knock off of the older style 9,000lb Warn.
The Premier was the winner and didn't draw as much current as all the others. The Magnum will suit Rover owners, as it's as thirsty as their engines!

No, I still haven't really worked out which one to buy, perhaps Colin could let us know the benefits/drawbacks of the gear ratios?
Seems to be the only real difference (aside from Brawn increasing build quality on the Chinese units).

This one wasn't in the test:
9500lb Warn 9.5XP, 4.4kw motor, 156:1 gearing:
No load line speed - 11.6m/m drawing 70 amps
6,000lbs - 3.1m/m drawing 335 amps
9,500lbs - 7.6m/m drawing 480 amps

On another note, the engine driven hydraulic winches are a good thing, but if you have stalled in the middle of a river you are in the poo. No engine, no winch. Electric hydraulic would be a better way to go, but heavier than just electric.

Back to you guys!

Bottom line as I see it is that both the Warn and Brawn winches do the job when it comes to pulling. The selling point for me is that If Colin backs up his waterproof claims and his electrics with after sales service and a warrantee then that's good enough for me.
I've heard too many stories of Warn owners getting burnt for drowning their winches. True a little post trip maintenance would have prevented the issue but I think I'd rather deal with a local aussie selling Chinese winches than put up with excuses from a reseller pushing the allmighty Yank brand!

my personal preference would still be a warn.

the XP is a great a winch i wouldnt bother with a 9000 and maybe the brawn winches are good but no one uses them in comps who are serious about winching and comp guys set a bench mark for the type of stuff to be used.

most people are getting the 8000 high and putting the XP 6hp motor on them beats stuffing around and modifying one for 24volt

The only way to solve this argument once and for all is a winch off!

Warn vs. Brawn at Wandin I say!

I still love my xp

If all the comp trucks used 9.5xp's (not just the motors) then yes that would be a selling point, the fact is that they don't. So what the "Comp" trucks use is not an issue here. Why does jo average with his 2.5 kids need a winch that can spool at 42 feet/min?

A winch off sounds good, I'll pay to see that

Bj42oz, Colin, I was having another read of you last response, especially about putting the XP up against your own winch. I had another look at your website and continue not to know when to believe you or not. On your site you have a section on Brawn Bronze rope. On that page you list the breaking strain of 8mm wire rope as 7,469 lb, yet you put it on your 9,500 lb winches. In your last response, you made a comment that Warn wire rope breaks, yet their 8mm wire is rated at around 10,000lb. So what is the breaking strain of your 8mm wire, is it 7,469lb as you claim the 8mm cable breaks at on your site or is it higher. Mudtoy has also claimed previously that the brawn 9500 will actually pull 13,000 lb, even your Bronze rope breaks at this load (by your site) and it is 174% (your figures) stronger than wire. Are you selling dangerous winches with wire rope that will break before the winch stalls. I hope not

All these claims that you and mudtoy put out about your winches, I do not know what to believe.

In regard to the challenge of the winches you put the distance at 10 feet. Is this because you know that the XP has nearly 40% more cable that your brawn winch or has it got something to do with how far your winch will last.

So do we know which wonch yet?

So far non tech view (bit dumb never looked at winches much)

Brawn - waterproof
Warn - quick spool (9.5xp's)? and drown
chinese - cheap
Premier - good knock off of warn
Magnum leaves you with a flattery

Have I missed anything?

blkmav
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:39 am

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The only way to solve this argument once and for all is a winch off!

Warn vs. Brawn at Wandin I say!

I still love my xp


Top Idea !!!!!!!!!!!

Just wondering what you would actually test and how. I don't care how much it can pull as long it can pull what it says it can. Winches pulling more than their rating can be dangerous if other things associated to the winch like cable and mountings are only rated the same as the winch.

People quote pulling power of the winch, but they do not say long long it can pull it for. The other difficulty is that winches have different capacities per layer and therefore the weight being applied to the winch would have to be continually changed. All the batteries used would have to be exactly the same, which could be hard to achieve.

I would love an independent winch comparision as well, but the results would have to relate to the real wall and would have to be carried out in a controlled environment. I do not think Wandin is the place. But mayber if we all write to one of the magazines, they will do a little bit btter test than they did a couple of years ago.

As I have just invested in another winch after previously buying one that did not end up suiting my requirements, I know how hard it is to sort through all the supplier information and distinguish fact from bullsh1t.

The attched site is excellent on how to winch and capacities of various recovery gear. Be warned that you may never feel safe winching again.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Recovery/

[i][size=9]P76 Wrote
Bj42oz, Colin, I was having another read of you last response, especially about putting the XP up against your own winch. I had another look at your website and continue not to know when to believe you or not. On your site you have a section on Brawn Bronze rope. On that page you list the breaking strain of 8mm wire rope as 7,469 lb, yet you put it on your 9,500 lb winches.

Firstly, I see that that is confusing and will tidy it up with an expliantion on the sire. We put 8.3 mm on the ZR-9500, the figure quoted for wire in the Bronze section related to the specified strength of steel in general from a rigging web site (don't remember which one) just as the 8 mm Brawn 4x4 Bronze is a nominal breaking strain. If we stated the absolute max of the rope we would be queried as to why we have to use 10mm on a 10,000 waarn and not the cheaper 8mm. Saftey margin if you like. I know the Warn wire breaks before ours, the Premier and Super winch break before Warn, It's not hear say or marketing hype, I hate it when the shops selling Warn lie to prospective customers about our winch and therefore I don't do it, If I know it I will say it I'm not into gossip. Facts are the only thing that matters to anybody really interested.

In your last response, you made a comment that Warn wire rope breaks, yet their 8mm wire is rated at around 10,000lb. So what is the breaking strain of your 8mm wire, is it 7,469lb as you claim the 8mm cable breaks at on your site or is it higher. [i]
The cable on the ZR-9500 does not break at 13,000lbs where the winch stalls Can't get safer than that, The 4 Warn XD-9000 tests I have witnessed or seen the results of all have the Warn cable break prior to the stall, Not safe in my mid. I prefer a winch that will stop winching prior to anything breaking.
[/i] Mudtoy has also claimed previously that the brawn 9500 will actually pull 13,000 lb, even your Bronze rope breaks at this load (by your site) and it is 174% (your figures) stronger than wire. Are you selling dangerous winches with wire rope that will break before the winch stalls. I hope not I.
Forget Mudtoy your dealing with me I will tell the Winch will pull to 13000lbs, It's on the new brochure as that, We rate the winch at 9500 and we rate the Bronze at 13,000, see above for the rest.

All these claims that you and mudtoy put out about your winches, I do not know what to believe.
I invite you over to sit down and chat without the noise, have a look at what we do, you have bought the xp, based on the research you did, your not alone Warn are selling heaps more winches than us. I have no problems with your decision, however when someone asked for a recomendation rather than telling what you actually found you used terms like smoke and mirrors and essentially called me a liar. I am only trying to emphansise what our advantages are , we pride ourselves on not having motors burn out and thats the reason when you enquired to fitting our motor to your old winch I told Mark to say no, We can't win in those cercumstances either a bad winch gets made to look good or a Good Motor gets made to look bad as in my opinion the gearing of a Warn is all wrong for heavy Aussie mud, great for rock climbing a metre at a time.

In regard to the challenge of the winches you put the distance at 10 feet. Is this because you know that the XP has nearly 40% more cable that your brawn winch or has it got something to do with how far your winch will last.
You can use the extra cable with your snatch block to ease the load (just a joke nothing snide).
10 paces was that is the distance they used in the old west in a gun fight. I'd have to check but I thought I used 10 paces not feet. On that how did you winch constantly for 20 minutes the speed would of had you in well under that? size][/i][/i]

Can someone please explain to me how to ad the snipped bit in grey when replying.

Regards,

Colin

Abit off topic but was wondering howcome no one here considered going PTO or mentioned the Miles Marker hydraulic winch?

Well for me i still have faith in my Warn.
I've a Warn M8000 that is 20 years old, well kept and serviced and is still going strong.
Probably it has spent half it's life sumerged in tropical rivers and mud and still going.
The only thing is that it's really slow as this runs the tiny 2hp motor. But still going strong.
Cheers.

Babyzilla,

Good question, we got "Bogged" down in the electrics and duty cycles.
Any type of PTO must have motor running so petrols in rivers are in jepardy. Other than the hydraulic on the power steer pump not many vehicles can run a tranny driven PTO (no access on transfer cases anymore), and very few modern ones would get the drive shafts through suspension components to the winch.

They tend to weigh a tonne and cost the earth. Powauto sells an excellent PTO system for arround $7k. The power steer pump ones suffer from over heating the fliud, on most Jap trucks a secound pump and 7 litre reservoir to feed it and they are slow.

20 years old and well serviced, good stuff, have you used it regulary as this is the best thing to keep winches happy also is it a Permanent magnet motor (Only 2 wires to it) as they tend not to worry about water?

Cheers,

Colin

Colin!

Before you go, let us know the rationale behind the Warn gearing and the Chinese gearing!

Up2,

Gearing, ours first as I know this. When I first dealt with TMAX they only had the XR-8000 style winch and smaller, and as we know there are good for occassional and intermittent use only. They only represnted the manufactuter as a sales company. Then TMAX establishished a factory to manufacture winches and my feedback to them was we (Aus) need longer duty cycles and more pulling power and explained what envoronment we have here. This resulted in Song (TMAX owner) commissioning a university's Elec eng dept to design a suitable motor and not a reversable starter motor. Once you have the motor specs as good as you can get them due to size/technology/cost restraints and you have the output requirements the gearing can be designed also taking the same restraints into account. So the 265:1 ratio is here. no load speed is not a priority for us. Since this time R and L sales in conjuction with TJM approached TMAX with a better offer than I could compete with and my direct association with the factory ended there.

As far as the Warn gearing rational I can only speculate, however I can see how the gearing would be ideal for the style of offroading the US does, majority seems to be can't get over a rock, short winch, get cable back on and off we go again. This ratio doesn't lend itself to long heavy bog pulls.

So it's not that high gearing is better than Low, it's what suits your environment. If I could work out how to change gears underload I'd try and produce a 2 speed winch. Unfortunately as we have approx 6:1 in each stage we go from 265:1 to 50:1 it would be like shifting from 1st to 5th in the car.

Gearing isn't everything, there's this effect that Warn has recently stumbled across, most call it efficiency. After the winch test in 4x4 Aus, Andy Brown (ARB) rang the author and wanted to know how, when the XD9000 and the Premier have the same size motor and gear ratio the Premier was faster. My response to the author was ask Andy how the XD9000 and the 9500HS have the exact same motor and Gearr atio that the HS is faster and pulls 500lbs more. I know it's because the Warn brake drags even on spooling in and on the HS the 1st of the planetary Gear box has been moved from after the brake to before the brake and therefore reducing the brake's rotating speed and drag, wow much more efficient. For the record the Brawn 4x4 brake doesn't drag and therefore we gain a bit here along with the lower gearing.

I must be getting old, my Saturday nights never used to invole the internet

Thanks for the interesting Question, hope it gives some food for thought.

Colin

Bj42oz, Colin, Now that we are getting into meaningful discussion, I will apologise about the smoke and mirrors comment. I was treating mudtoy as your agent and he had previously stated on this site that you completely rewire your winches. At the start of our conversation in your store, I thought you made a similar comment, but I could have been mistaken. My comment was based around completely rewiring the motor verses the work that you actually do.

I would like to clarify what makes your wire rope so strong. In your last response you indicate that the 9500 will pull 13,000 pound and the wire will not break at this level. Before my last response I attempted to do a bit of research on cable and its breaking strain and I remain concerned about this subject while I am around others using winches. Can you supply the product used to make the cable along with the number of strands, etc of the cable. I have not been able to find any cable around that size that has a 13,000 pound breaking strain. I would like to know what to order when I have to replace my cable.

I did find some material on Warn winch ropes breaking. However, the research was carried out a number of years ago by a competitor and only stated that the rope broke before the specified rating. It did not state whether it broke 1 pound or 1,000 pound before the specification. I would be interested in any information dated in the last year or 2 that relates to the Warn cable breaking. Again, as I now have one, I would like to know the risk.

I also find it a bit confusing when you compare your current winch with older models of Warn. The Warn XP does not have the same old brake as the others.

I am curious to find out a little more about the gearing in a winch. My observation to date is that the cheaper winches tend to have the high gearing. Eg the Magnum had virtually the same gearing as yourself. From what I have been able to find, the gearing is simply a matter of the efficiency of the motor. A motor that operates best at higher revs will tend to have the higher gearing. A motor that pulls better at lower revs has the lower gearing. The line speed does not appear to come into it as there appears to be no direct correlation between the two in the various winch specs. But again, I would be interested in any other information you have.

Looking forward to further discussions

P76,

Appology accected, if anything you started a great topic. I don't normally have time for these, but I am enjoying it.

Lots of stuff in one thread but here goes. I wont use the technicle terms as I don't know all of them and not everybody will understand.

On the steel cable don't get in the way of any brand. Any manufacturer of steel cable will quote the rated strength, ie with a saftey margin built in, so don't be surprised that you don't find spec's claiming 13,000 etc. My understanding is that steel cable relies on tensile strength not just diameter and no of strands. So get a new warn cable and get a Brawn 4x4 cable pull them off the drum and you will find the Warn much more malliable to handle, Ours is a pain in the arse it is so stiff, no appologies as we all agree safety first, so another delema for the winch builder, High speed V's Pull and soft cable V's strength.

For those interested this is why you should not straighten a kinked cable as it will have lost it's tensileness (don't know if thats a word). Hence why we have difficulty explaining how a synthetic rope will last longer than a steel as most newbee winchers will birds nest the cable and technically its shot, with the synthetics unjam it and keep going.

As for our wire structure it is the standard aircraft gal wind, would have to go and look it up, doesn't have a steel core or anything special. Please understand that if we have an advantage it is prudent for us to keep it inhouse. when you do need to replace cable let me know and I'll order required length from you. Also anyone else looking for steel cable, ours is $120 for 28m and ARB list Warn at $330+ for 30m (gratuatous plug)

On comparison we measure our main seller the ZR-9500 with the other brands main seller, so the XD9000 is it, the HS and XP are not in the same price bracket and don't fit all bars and therefore we don't use them in benchmarking, we are certainly aware that they are there, however if warn acknoledge that "environment" proofing is required why not carry on into the volume selling range.

I don't agree here, as you know 3 of us have the same pedigree, so our gearing is the same, Premier is same as XD9000 and is in the "Cheap" bracket.
Comparing the Magnum with the others is like comparing an LJ50 Zuk with a 4.2l turbo diesel the LJ had a low range off the scale as it had no power in the motor. The magnum motor is small.

Doesn't the XP run the 6hp motor which is a series/parrallel winding? We have jumped a technology so the rules will change , good on them for that leap in tech, will it filter down to the volume market? I hope not.

In a winch we only have one ratio, so you select it to work where you want your efficiency, under heavy, light or no load. certainly the optimum efficiency of a motor is somewhere??? not right through the load/speed range. So as you state the motor and gearing have to be matched, the thing to ad to what you say is that they can be matched for any of the different circumstances listed above, with a single raatio winch you have to choose one. In a 2 ratio (speed) winch you could go from our 265 when heavily loaded to 165 when no load and you have the best of both worlds because the motor will be in it's happy spot in both circumstances. Exactly why trucks have 25 gears or whatever it is.

I often use the comarison that The Brawn 4x4 winch is in first gear and the Warn is in 3rd, 1st gear will get you up any hill but slowly, 3rd wont like the hills but will sit on 80 comfortablly.

Got to go and cook dinner for the kids, something simple after all this brain strain I think. No Not macca's those golden arches are just an upside down Big W you know!!!!!!

Colin

Colin, Some interesting comments. From your comments about the cable I assume that you get them from a certain person in your local area.

I do not believe that the XP is that much more expensive than the 9000 and it is actually cheaper than the other 9500's it replaces. Must admit that the size of the 6hp motor makes the XP a pain to fit as you have to move mounting holes, etc.

The gearing ratios still appear to me to simply get more pulling power out of a certain motor. If you look at Warn products, you will notice that the 9000, 12000, and 15000 all have exactly the same motor. However the gearing ratio on the 9000 is 156:1, the 12000 is 261:1, and the 15000 is 315:1. So I agree with your analogy of gears. If you have a 4 cyclinder in a heavy car, you need to use first more often. It also means that the lower the power of the motor, the higher the gearing ratio you need to get the pulling power. This brings up an interesting question with your own winches. If your winch only pulls 9000 lb, the gearing would indicate a low power motor. If you have improved the power of the motor (as you have indicated through your wiring improvements) and left the gearing alone, maybe the rating of your winch should be upgraded. That is, with the power of your motor and gearing, maybe you should be comparing it to a Warn 12000 (which has a similar motor and gearing) and not a 9000. What I find a bit strange is why doesn't the pulling specs on your literature reflect the pulling power you say your winches have. Please do not take the following statement the wrong way, I am not having a go at you. It is just what went through in my mind when I was trying to work out what winch to buy. You admit that you are in a competitive industry and you are a bit of an underdog. Winches are purchased based on the pulling power and speed (and of course price). If your winches pull harder than your specs in your literature and website, why don't you list the real specs to give you an advantage in the industry. If you are selling a 12000 or 13000 pound winch for $1,450, isn't this going to sell more winches than a 9000 pound one for the same price. Not being prepared to put a 13000 pound pulling strength in your literature was the main reason for not buying your product as you were not prepared to put some of the claims made in writing.

It is also good to see that you can cook too.

Although the specs may be better than the rating of a winch or anything for that matter, you have to consider the reliability. While the 9000lb winch may be able to pull 12000lbs or better you wouldn't rate something at it's maximum load. IE. safe working stress is almost half of the breaking strain of straps and shackles etc. This is done for safety as you can't reliably calculate all the different working conditions and life spans of most products after they have been purchased by the customer.

toughnut, everything with a winch tends to be maximum, not safe working loads. The winch's pulling power is generally its stall point. When they say a cable is rated at 10,000 pound, that is minimum breaking strain of a new cable in perfect condition. If that same cable was rated for safe working load, the rating would only be 2,000 pound.

P76, if you buy a winch to fit a specific task you would wan't to be able to operate to that level all the time. If you continually run a winch to it's stall point all the time it'll fail sooner rather than later. Also the product is aimed at a specific part of the market and as such is advertised to suit. This applies to most products you may come accross.