Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Wendle wrote:i think the commodore engine/box is a good option. the only issue being that the length and width of the 700 becomes a bit of a design constraint.

a while ago i bought for $500:
good commo engine with all ancillaries & loom/computer. came with new extractors & exhaust,
good t700 with shifter,
pedal assemblys and master cylinder/booster,
steering column,
radiator & fan,
probably more stuff i can't remember, i just grabbed everything i thought would be useful.

canberra is quite expensive for used car parts too, i am sure you could get this stuff much cheaper elsewhere, it becomes a pretty cheap drivetrain.

The length should be good with an LT230 transfer adapted to it (need to cut and resplile the rear output. Even if you use something from Marks adapters (and a nissan or cruza case) I think it still works out not to bad. With the rover transfer I work it out to being 2inches shorter than the stock rover combo we use at the moment.

For us the width isnt an issue. In the last few buggies we have used a hilux centre bearing in the front tailshaft so you can run the front tailshaft very close to the auto pan and not have clearanse issues.

The way I see it is the cost of this setup is still going to be very similar to the injected rover setups - about $4000 for the engine/auto/transfer but it should be worthwile cause it gives you better gearing (T700 has a 3:1 first instead of 2.5:1) and a cheaper engine if it blows up. The downside to this setup is the combo will be heaver and the centre of gravity further forward compared to the rover setup - but not by much.

Sam

Strange Rover wrote:So whats a zuke worth as a donner vehicle??? And then transfer gears??

You can get a rangie with an auto easily less than $2000 and if you try less than $1000 and with the hilux diffs you dont need transfer gears.

Id imagine by the time you buy a zook as a doner vehicle and also get the transfer gears its going to be more expensive. And do cheap zooks come with power steering or will you have to buy this seperate.

The way I see it a cheap rangie with auto and power steer is the cheapest way to go because you dont need transfer gears and it comes with power steering and the motor will run at any angle and its got decent torque and power. Opinions??

Sam

A donor Zook would cost around $500. Gears another $1000-1500.
I see where your coming from Sam.But not everyone likes Rangie shiat. . I personally like to build it as light as possible.And I like ZOOKS
SAM

OVERKILL ENGINEERING wrote:A donor Zook would cost around $500. Gears another $1000-1500.
I see where your coming from Sam.But not everyone likes Rangie shiat. . I personally like to build it as light as possible.And I like ZOOKS
SAM

Just in relation to keeping the weight down, just remember that there is a minimum weight restriction for WEROCK.

I figure most of the people that are now really keen on building buggys are aiming at WEROCK so you might aswell work as close as possible to the rules.

Minimum weight 2200 Pounds = 997 Kg (without driver).

6.23: Weight
Weight is the total vehicle weight.
6.23.1: The vehicle must weigh a minimum of 2200 without the driver while competing. A W.E.Rock marshal may approve weight reduction based on damage while competing.

Considering that my buggy is 1390kg's as it stands at the moment.

But i should be getting close to the 1000kg mark in a few weeks!

How light do the yank moon buggies get????

SAWZALL wrote:How light do the yank moon buggies get????

they also have weight restrictions wich i belive is the 2200lb

i think tiny has to put lead weights in his to bring it upto proper wieght
wich also means he can add it really low

Would it be possible to use the th350 instead of a 700?
Forgive me for my lack of GM engine and trans knowledge but it looks like a better choice for a buggy.
Assuming costs are similar.

The gearing is slightly higher, but it is shorter, and weighs a lot less.
Gearing can be fixed with t-case or diffs anyways

th350
21.75" long
120lbs
gears 2.52, 1.52, 1

th700r4
23.4" long
155lbs
gears 3.06, 1.63, 1, .7

SAWZALL wrote:How light do the yank moon buggies get????

Speaking of building trucks shouldn't you be somewhere.

SAWZALL wrote:How light do the yank moon buggies get????

2200 -2300 Pound!

Does that include the 1000lbs of lead shot in the tyres???

Strange Rover wrote:In the last few buggies we have used a hilux centre bearing in the front tailshaft so you can run the front tailshaft very close to the auto pan and not have clearanse issues.

how are the hilux centre bearings handling the punishment?

i have to use a centre bearing of some sort on my front shaft, but was a bit hesitant about using hilux stuff as everyone who drives with us here with hilux shafts seems to grenade uni's or peel open the slip joints..

zzzz wrote:Would it be possible to use the th350 instead of a 700?
Forgive me for my lack of GM engine and trans knowledge but it looks like a better choice for a buggy.
Assuming costs are similar.

The gearing is slightly higher, but it is shorter, and weighs a lot less.
Gearing can be fixed with t-case or diffs anyways

th350
21.75" long
120lbs
gears 2.52, 1.52, 1

th700r4
23.4" long
155lbs
gears 3.06, 1.63, 1, .7

only reasont to use the 700r4 is the 3:1 1st gear instead of 2.5:1 Which for us when we use a rover transfer case (3.3:1) we get perfect gearing without having to buy transfer gears (which means cheap)

If you are going to get transfer gears then the best auto is the 2 speed powerglide which has a 1st gear of only 2:1 which means you need a 5:1 transfer ratio (which the US guys get out of an atlas)

Sam

Wendle wrote:

Strange Rover wrote:In the last few buggies we have used a hilux centre bearing in the front tailshaft so you can run the front tailshaft very close to the auto pan and not have clearanse issues.

how are the hilux centre bearings handling the punishment?

i have to use a centre bearing of some sort on my front shaft, but was a bit hesitant about using hilux stuff as everyone who drives with us here with hilux shafts seems to grenade uni's or peel open the slip joints..

I think they will do OK. Tony has replaced one so far although Im not sure what went wrong with it in the first place.

Sam

so what about just tube framing a chassis, like what sam has done with the mogrover? or is it just not worth it?

Timmy wrote:so what about just tube framing a chassis, like what sam has done with the mogrover? or is it just not worth it?

The mogrover is a complete Series 2a Landrover with an exocage swaped onto a range rover chassis.

The best thing about a tube buggy is that if you roll it then you dont get expensive body damage. If I rolled the Mogrover then it would be a big mess cause its got a full body.

Putting a complete tube body onto an existing chassis can work very well though. This is what Rod Dirt ran at PUOSH last year. This is what the legends class rigs in the US were last year - just look for pics on pirate for legends rigs and UROC modified rigs to see how far this concept can be taken.

Sam

from cost , a donar is really only good if you get a big bunch of what you want ,

rangie is ok for the transfer , but your limited to 83 or later to get it ,
you would really need the fuel injected for a buggy , and if you break the transfer the bits are worth as much as another car

with the zook stuff , same story you,ll want fuel injection or its just a pin in the butt , and you need to spend on the gearing to match the rangie,
no disconect for the rear either unless you buy .

IF only we had one item that was cheap enough on the oz market
that would fill a heap of Gaps we'd be laughing , what is it ?
A single speed detached crankable transfer with a 4.5 or 5 -1 ratio ,
with enough offset to mis the fat ass 700 ,and front rear disconects biult in.

We don,t need high range for comps , If you could biuld these for a $1000, you could use what eve motor box combe you wanted in front of it ,

It would cut a truck load of build costs ,

and less one of engineered item's to break .
JMO

Im an extreme scrooge

Larry.

what about a fuel injected fwd east-west motor? cheap and light and got gearing and most likely auto too

whats wrong with the T18 ?

planb wrote:whats wrong with the T18 ?

4spd Manual???

Its got a clutch. Trust me the stuff we are now driving an Auto realy is a huge benifit.

Strange Rover wrote:

Wendle wrote:

Strange Rover wrote:In the last few buggies we have used a hilux centre bearing in the front tailshaft so you can run the front tailshaft very close to the auto pan and not have clearanse issues.

how are the hilux centre bearings handling the punishment?

i have to use a centre bearing of some sort on my front shaft, but was a bit hesitant about using hilux stuff as everyone who drives with us here with hilux shafts seems to grenade uni's or peel open the slip joints..

I think they will do OK. Tony has replaced one so far although Im not sure what went wrong with it in the first place.

Sam

Actually im still running the original and it looked fine when i had it out the other night to re-build the centre diff in the Tcase. I think its just mounted too close to the tube its mounted to so it flexes a little under load and the flange rattles on the tube work. If i were looking for a centre bearing that would work perfect but costs a lot more than a hilux one i would look at a 2wd Ftruck from the Mid Eighties.

Strange Rover wrote:

Timmy wrote:so what about just tube framing a chassis, like what sam has done with the mogrover? or is it just not worth it?

The mogrover is a complete Series 2a Landrover with an exocage swaped onto a range rover chassis.

The best thing about a tube buggy is that if you roll it then you dont get expensive body damage. If I rolled the Mogrover then it would be a big mess cause its got a full body.

Putting a complete tube body onto an existing chassis can work very well though. This is what Rod Dirt ran at PUOSH last year. This is what the legends class rigs in the US were last year - just look for pics on pirate for legends rigs and UROC modified rigs to see how far this concept can be taken.

Sam

would there be benifits of running a chassis, say for comps that dont require rego but do require a factory chassis?

No real benefit to running a chassis other than it makes an easier point to start a buildup.

Dont know of any comps that require a chassis and no rego.

Sam

SAWZALL wrote:Does that include the 1000lbs of lead shot in the tyres???

Its common knowledge and common practice to run water in the tyres. However i see this been fine when using Built Dana 60's but when you have (which most people will) Hilux, Cruiser, Nissan and Suzuki diffs the weight of the tyres just puts too much strain on the CV's. (IMO)

So it really comes down to whether or not putting all that weight down low and ruducing the chance of falling over on a Cross slope out weighs breaking sh!t and not completeing that stage.

You will also find that most, run water in the front to assist in climbing very steep climbs.

Strange Rover wrote:

Wendle wrote:

Strange Rover wrote:In the last few buggies we have used a hilux centre bearing in the front tailshaft so you can run the front tailshaft very close to the auto pan and not have clearanse issues.

how are the hilux centre bearings handling the punishment?

i have to use a centre bearing of some sort on my front shaft, but was a bit hesitant about using hilux stuff as everyone who drives with us here with hilux shafts seems to grenade uni's or peel open the slip joints..

I think they will do OK. Tony has replaced one so far although Im not sure what went wrong with it in the first place.

Sam

i have used a f100 centre bearing on my front shaft. looks plenty big enough. i used the 2 piece shaft to clear the crossmember after the dual transfer conversion.

bru

I haven't bothered to read the whole thread as i don't have alot of time, but my buggy has easily 16000k in parts, and heaps of labour so far. All the fiddly stuff is what sucks, my past three weeks has been spent doing engine mounts, transfer case mounts x 2 and all the other stuff that has to be done before the frame. All is being done around working hours, getting up at 5.30am sucks !!!
Once the small stuff is done you can really get going, Em and i have been working on the frame since thursday night and by monday night we'll have the whole frame tacked together...thank god for easter !!! Will put some pics up when i can.

Speaking of BUGGY BUILDING!

This might save someone a bit of time!

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=40259

If you encourage they will build
Hay sam i think that this thread and everyone that is/has built a buggie can help with all the unforseen areas of a buggie build up is great for your comp in that there are so many people keen to build something or in the process that the next problem you will have is when you get in excess of 50+ buggies/rockcrawlers turn up to compete a round but hay thats what we all want so keep up the thread with all this type of info because a lot of people will be reading this one mate
Cheers Jamie

Guts wrote:From what sam has post here I would have to agree with him that out of those combs the rangie shit would make the best buggie for around the same $$$

I know it would cost more but if I was building one I would use toy V8 and GXL auto and t case, why? Because I farking hate rangies with a passion man they can`t even put the shifters in the wright place and lets not get started on the blinkers and on top of that my mum is a 100% pomm and I hate my mum lots.

sorry to resurrect an old thread, but its 4am, i'm at work bored shitless (and my mind is wondering about buggies )

would this be too long for the buggy? i would have thought this to be a good combo also, becasue of the nice and light all alloy donk, and the strength of Toyo parts.

would you have to run gearing in the t/case if you used hilux axles with this combo? or would it be like the rover combo you were all talking about earlier, which dosn't need them.

the other reason i like Guts's idea about the Toyo V8 is because you can get a halfcut for about between $1500 and $2000 with ancillaries (sp?).

*edit*

and another question, what sort of skill level is required to build something like this? would i be able to do it (read: be the spanner monkey) with the dedicated help of a boiler maker and a diesel fitter (my two mates who are keen to help build one)

Strange Rover wrote:...

If you run a carbed 3.5l rangie v8 should really run 4.88 hilux axles. If you run a late model 3.9injected then the 4.3 or 4.1 hilux work well. If you want a bit more crown and pinion strength then toyota 60 series works very well (both Tony and myself eat Hilux crownwheels - they never have failed but we are always swapping them out cause we chip teeth)

Comments??

Sam

Just curious...

Is there any specific reason you dont use Nissan diffs, GQ/GU? They have 4.88 ratios.
Too heavy?
Too expensive?