Outer Limits 4x4 Board

going on what has been said, it sounds as though they are specificly refering to suspensiona nd body lifts. how will that impact vehicle's that have spring over conversions or coil conversions? i don't have to worry, 7 inch lift in an 84 hilux

All good points made, and I agree with all of them. If this shit of a new Bulletin does come out, and they do impose bans, fines, or whatever, then there sure are going to be a shitloads of angry 4WDrivers, me included. Dont want to throw away a set of brand new 33 muddies cos some pencil dicked bueracrat tells me to, when the truck handles fine.

Itd be too hard to manage anyway, but I will wait and see what happens in a few weeks, and talk to this Engineer again. He did seem to have a bee in his arse when i was talking about it with him. Maybe he hadnt been laid recently and was uptight!!!!

Incidently, the other engineer I first spoke to said shackles where OK, bigger tyres where OK, and my certificate was about $400 bucks. So who the hell knows whats going on in RTA land!!!!

Lets wait and see.

V6XtraHilux wrote:All good points made, and I agree with all of them. If this shit of a new Bulletin does come out, and they do impose bans, fines, or whatever, then there sure are going to be a shitloads of angry 4WDrivers, me included. Dont want to throw away a set of brand new 33 muddies cos some pencil dicked bueracrat tells me to, when the truck handles fine.

Itd be too hard to manage anyway, but I will wait and see what happens in a few weeks, and talk to this Engineer again. He did seem to have a bee in his arse when i was talking about it with him. Maybe he hadnt been laid recently and was uptight!!!!

Incidently, the other engineer I first spoke to said shackles where OK, bigger tyres where OK, and my certificate was about $400 bucks. So who the hell knows whats going on in RTA land!!!!

Lets wait and see.

Wait and it might be too late to do anything............

I believe that Vicroads set this as a guideline for modifications. I think that an engineer still can sign off modifications if they see the modification is safe and have the test reports to back them up.

Simply put, consult the engineer before you modify your car. Provide him (in writing) a list of modifications you wish to carry out and have him respond in writing with his thoughts.

I was told about something like this 12 months ago when i had my car engineered.
There was plans to change the rules so that insted of going to one engineer to get certified, motor, suspenstion, body, seat and tyre changes, you would need to go to a engineer for each and every modiforcation. There for if you had 5 mods for that car to be engineered you would need to go to 5 different engineers classified for that perticular mod, and an engineer would only be given classifacation for a single mod.
This is to deter people from modifying vehicles as the price per appointment would be approx $1000- $1500 and most people would be detered from doing too many mods possibly at once or at all because of costs.
Also testing of vehicles will be tighter than most ADR guidlines.
Also as far as i am aware and most engineers may know this campain is mainly the doing of one man from the RTA in Sydney and has made no attempts to work with the engineers on a compromise as the engineers feel that this will only increase the number of unsafe and unroadworthy vehicles on the road. Maybe some body could name this person as id say alot of people would like a chat with him .
Any ways im keen for a little sleep over in down town ACT.

guzzla wrote:... - government could never afford to compramise themselves like that. it would create massive public backlash.

do you think they really give a fuck what the public thinks? Look at petrol "exise/tax/parity"...

bogged wrote:

guzzla wrote:... - government could never afford to compramise themselves like that. it would create massive public backlash.

do you think they really give a ***** what the public thinks? Look at petrol "exise/tax/parity"...

Agreed. The public has a very short attention span, and it's a looooong way to the next election.

this is from another forum

I emailed an engineer the other day in regards to modifying trucks and what not in NSW. To which he gave me an interesting response about body lifts in NSW. Seeing as this is always debated as to whether it's legal or not etc.

Part of the email:


Quote:Please note that the NSW RTA is currently in the process of issuing an instruction on body lifts on 4 x 4 vehicles. This will impact on the ability to certify this mod in NSW.

To this I asked:


Quote:The Instruction on body lifts you speak of; Is this going to make it "harder" or illegal for body lifts? Or is it just because there are previously no guidelines in place perhaps?

To which the response was:


Quote:Hi Bryan,

It would appear from communication with the RTA that a 2" or 50mm body lift will be OK. Bearing in mind that it will depend on vehicle build date due to Australia Design Rule compliance. Also the 50mm lift may inpact on brake hose length throughout suspension travel., steering intermediate shaft coupling etc.

The bulletin is yet to be released BUT there are issues as mentioned above and then it goes onto roll over testing due to increased height of the centre of gravity, spring over kits etc etc.

As the evidence is growing and the dissention in the 4wd ranks GROWS, it would appear that if u mention u work for the RTA, its as bad as admitting u work for the Banks!!

I dont see how an engineered approved, fully tested and otherwise "legally" modified vehicle is suddently made unroadworthy becasue bueracrats want to make it so. I thought ADR's are meant to promote vehicle safety standards, not smack u in the face with it.

Anyway, I will soon get my truck engineered and certificated and hopefully before any, if any, new bulletin is released.

Up yours RTA!

taziiy wrote:The bulletin is yet to be released BUT there are issues as mentioned above and then it goes onto roll over testing due to increased height of the centre of gravity, spring over kits etc etc.

Is that like the "lane change test" that the cops rolled a standard navara in?

I have been wary of this since day dot.....

Just look at the TTC carpark a lot of cars had 50mm plus lifts mine included and no doubt 90% without engineers approval.

Everyone is $$$ cashing in on this industry and at the moment it seems to be fairly huge. And why wouldn't you as I said before if every 2nd car at the TTC had prolly over 2k worth of suspension goodies plus miscellaneous crap people buy that from somewhere...

Definately a mass gathering ala. tent embassy lol would be well advised if something like this does take place..

Perhaps the industry may have to conform to some standards ?? I don't know..

But the truth is that this is a legit hobby/recreation as legit as rifle owner ship. As I have said before if you can prove you need your 100mm lift (which will be pre approved due to the new standards that must be met ....) you can have it. Quite similar to being in a rifle club and proving that you do schedueled shoots every month or so..

Being an active member of a 4wd club with a capable vehicle is no different to being an active member of a rifle club with a working firearm ??? Like maybe this line of thought needs to be used ?? I don't know ....

I just don't want to see this hobby die....

we will buy the RTA out,

or get richard bransen to, he'd love big trucks.

JemmyBubbles wrote:As I have said before if you can prove you need your 100mm lift (which will be pre approved due to the new standards that must be met ....) you can have it.

So how do you prove that you "NEED" it? 10's thousands of 4bs out there happily with 2inch lifts or less..

Big Red Toy wrote:i know how to solve all your problems...

MOVE TO VICTORIA

Sounds good in theory, but these are all part of the "National" road rules that are comin out in the next billion years... for now we are safe.. but for how long... :(

Proving you needed the lift or whatever would be similar to proving that you need your over and under shotgun for skeet shooting or your pump action shotgun because you are a collector... Bogged you are right about a lot of folks being happy with 50mm or less but one can't deny the ever increasing amount of people with 33's+ 100m+ lifts.

You need long travel raised suspension because your club frequently visits and drives areas that requires better than standard (better by about 100mm ) clearance. The point I am making is: if people -like myself- own rifles etc, which ultimately don't serve any real purpose other than the specific recreational purpose of hunting/target, why can't we have vehicles with sub extreme mods ( 4's n 35's etc) for our specific recreational purpose, 4wding. This can be proved through your active involvement with a 4wd club ?? Do you follow ??

THe point I am getting across is that to the average person not interested in either guns/ modded road registered 4b's, may see both as having no purpose at all. But both serve there own specific recreational purpose and both are as equally valid as each other...

Yeah,

I have a vague idea of what I am trying to say

ill agree 100% as you make complete sense.

i have been told that you don't need to have your truck / car registered to drive on the road - only need to havethe third party paid. how about a mass cancelling of rego's by all 4x4 owners untill they meet us half way.

they will learn

fark them all. anyone who knows nothing about 4WD's has NO business trying to make rules restricting them in any way shape or form. as all of you EXPERIENCED 4X4ers probably know, a car wwill handle differently with 33's and 100m+ lift, but you know how to handle it.

these idiots are trying to undermine lots of recreational activities nowadays, becuase the ammount of credible knowledge on the chosen recreation they have, is almost as small as their willies.

JemmyBubbles wrote:I have been wary of this since day dot.....

Just look at the TTC carpark a lot of cars had 50mm plus lifts mine included and no doubt 90% without engineers approval.

This raises an interesting point. When if come time to try and appeal something like this you can only go on statistics available. I think it would be great for the 4x4 industry to have some sort of industry representation. Have a look at the Hot rodders. They have some many people with passion that they now have their own certification code. Even if you have an industry representation if people are not having their vehicles certified it creates false statistics. To use the number given above, which I am aware are just guestimate figures, on paper the number of people who would be affected by these new requlations will be out by a factor of 10. This would give you representation a lot less put with the government department you are dealing with. You can hardly ask the govt department to have leaniency on your vehicle based on the dollars you have spent if you are running the vehicle illegally.

That said I hope this does not come in but there has been a lot of talk lately about aligning standards and it looks like NSW is going QLD's way.

If this comes in statistics will probably show that 99% of 4x4'er live in VIC and just happen to spend a lot of time visiting QLD and NSW.

hi there,

i am new to 4wd, but have been into modified cars for years.

over time they have changed the regulations a few times... ie what size engine can legally go into which car. basically if the car is engineered before the date of the changes it can stay as it is, but if the rego is allowed to run out it will not be able to be reregistered. so i know of people with large v8's in early celicas... legally, where as now the largest naturally aspirated motor is 3.5 times the weight of the car.

also as far as the police not issueing fines for defects.... i'll tell you that is wrong. they do fine for many defects, if they are unsure of the regulation (quite common) they can defect it still, basically meaning you need to have it checked, but not fine for it. A mate was defected last year... 11 defects, fined for 4 of them.

Cheers
Stew

JemmyBubbles wrote:Bogged you are right about a lot of folks being happy with 50mm or less but one can't deny the ever increasing amount of people with 33's+ 100m+ lifts.

Agree, but how many with their lifts and tires are doing it only to pick up the kids from school? Someone yrs back on patrol list was talkin to some dude at a boat ramp once, the dude had a twin locked lifted, and tired 4b. He said SO where do you travel in this thing.. it was LOADED!. He said, oh no, dont go offroad, I need this to get my boat out of the water.

You need long travel raised suspension because your club frequently visits and drives areas that requires better than standard (better by about 100mm ) clearance.

Agree.

The point I am making is: if people -like myself- own rifles etc, which ultimately don't serve any real purpose other than the specific recreational purpose of hunting/target, why can't we have vehicles with sub extreme mods ( 4's n 35's etc) for our specific recreational purpose, 4wding.

They will say like your guns, that lock them away and only use them on "CLUB TRIPS", like your guns. Never to be used in public.. (I think thats what I mean)

This can be proved through your active involvement with a 4wd club ?? Do you follow ??

I do, but for example in my club there would be no more than 10 4wds with a 4inch lift etc.. And there are probably more people who HAVE the kit and dont NEED it than the other way around in the general population of aussie..

THe point I am getting across is that to the average person not interested in either guns/ modded road registered 4b's, may see both as having no purpose at all.

agree

But both serve there own specific recreational purpose and both are as equally valid as each other...

I wouldnt go using the 2 together in a discussion on tele though, guns are seen as less required than modded wheelers.

have a vague idea of what I am trying to say

I know what your gettin at, but these norti werd are making these rules, and they will also make some bull shit rule that you would need to follow to "PROVE" you need the lift. The main issue as I see it, there is ZERO consultation with 4wders or associations (the toothless kitty) to see from this side of the fence, which is one MASSIVE problem. Motorcyclists suffer/ed from the same thing for fuckin years.

We as a sport/hobby have ZERO high profile people out there in the general arena.. Glen Ridge was for a while, with a camping/4wd show, but he has gone quiet.. We need some high profile people to speak up for us. I DO Like the new Repco ads sayin basically "We support 4wding", its a start.

OK I’ll leave myself open, LOL.

It seems the writing is on the wall regarding implementing a Statewide base code and in all honesty I think we should be looking at it as a good move. You may not agree or like it but if modified 4wd’s eventually comply with a National code and an approval process then it’s an avenue to deflect any future criticisms.

It’s not defined as yet but it seems that a base standard will be set, which appears to be along the lines of a max 50mm lift requiring no approval. This seems sensible, as it will allow the fitting of slightly larger rear springs/coils/tyres etc that will cater for most peoples requirements, without the need to seek approval.

But for those that want more then the avenue will still be there but you will be required to go through an approval process, which exists in most States now and kudos to those that have gone threw the proper engineering channels.

The States know it will not be possible to implement a complete ban on 4wd modifcations the same as applies to normal cars.

But it may now probably also mean extra tests such as a lane change test etc. This will incur a cost but if this is the type of vehicle you want then it’s your choice and the avenue will be available to get full approval.

Emotions do get involved but ……..

In all honesty if someone wants to drive a 6â€

No real problem with anything you say there Ozrunner but surely allowing 2" bigger tyres would make most people roadworthy(and insured) plus any engineer would sign off on it anyway.There has to be scope for approved modifications to be more than just a 2" lift.
Regards Charlie

There will be as long as you go through an approval process.

The proposed 50mm lift limit will be a combination that does NOT require any approval. From what I understand so far this approved 50mm "lift" can also include tyres, ie 1" tyre lift and 1" body/suspension lift or just a 50mm body lift with stock tyres etc.

Yes, there is a grey area as to whether the 50mm can just be achieved with tyres. I suspect not as from what I have heard in our State you will be allowed to have an 1" larger tyre over the max factory size that was available for your model truck.

eg, 90-95 4Runners had 31" as a standard tyre on the SR5 so you will be permitted to go to a 32' without approval. Anything larger would require the full approval process even though you may still be under the 50mm max. A 32" is fine but a 33-35" etc becomes a whole new ballgame as its outside the normal approval parameter.

Same with rims. The SR5 came with 7" rims and an 8" is now legal without approval, in our State anyway, but anything larger would require approval etc .

Again, I don't have a problem with this. If the authorities are willing to acknowledge that a 1" larger size has no bearing on overall handling to the extent it doesn't require any approval, that seems to be a commonsense outcome, as it will cover most guys setups.

But I think most would accept that it is reasonable to conclude that a 33-35" may not handle in the same manner, remembering it could be any type of vehicle, and most of these sized tyres may not be the normal road tread type pattern, therefore an approval process may need to be followed.

Any other combinations over the 50mm will require an approval process probably not much different than what exists in some States now.

It's only the start and we have yet to get any clear guidelines but I also hold the view that once these are set, in time I think you will find that many combinations over the 50mm limit on certain vehicles may become accepted as being the norm and the approval process may become a lot more streamlined or easier.

Someone mentioned the Hot Rod guys which is good example. Some of the initial rod combinations were very extreme and they had to jump threw hoops for approval, whereas many are now the norm and no big deal.

In our case they have to start somewhere.

JD

As mentioned I don't have a problem with any Statewide proposal covering this issue as long as it is consistent and the rules are in black and white.

But a concern is HOW do they come up with the base height for each and every model that can then be used to measure whether you are under or over the proposed 50mm limit or indeed even the possible max of 150mm. A few mil either way could mean the difference between a lot of money to go the full approval process or not, or change your suspension etc to drop it back to 150mm etc.

Theoretical measurement terms cannot be used, ie 31" to 32" tyres equals 1" increase as it DOESN'T etc.

Obviously, the only true way would be to compare what the vehicles initial factory inner guard height was to your current inner guard height and the difference is the accurate height increase over factory specs, achieved via either a body or suspension lift, tyre size or any combination etc.

But unless they are able to get a ground to inner guard lip height from the various factories for each and every model it will be a minefield of intepretations. This precise information is probably not even available from the factories as is some cases a vehicles factory ride height is NOT determined in this manner, so how are they going to do it?

You can't have State 1 putting a tape from the ground to the inner guard and saying "sorry bud you're over by 5mm" and State 2 saying you're fine and then on a visit to State 1 you get pinged. It has to be a consistent approach and I see this as a major stumbling block in the whole process.

The mind boggles

Centre of wheel to wheel arch measurements are available for most vehicles. To use the current Rangie as an example the measurements can be found at http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/perl/282 ... 173558.cmd

This is the easiest way to determine the amount of lift a vehicle has. Even if you cut the guards its not that hard to compare a guard to work out how much it has been cut.

auto_eng wrote:Centre of wheel to wheel arch measurements are available for most vehicles. To use the current Rangie as an example the measurements can be found at http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/perl/282 ... 173558.cmd

This is the easiest way to determine the amount of lift a vehicle has. Even if you cut the guards its not that hard to compare a guard to work out how much it has been cut.

So where are you meant to get this for a 1985 toyota 4runner???

Chris.

I know in NSW that headlights must not be higher than 1.5 metres from the ground. This seems like a good rule to keep all trucks under this sorta system because a 2 inch lifted crusier is the same as a 4 inch lifted patrol so it would be fair similar ground clearence. However can see how it would come unstuck with a zook for example which would have a bit more lift again to equal.

My second thought is this. We buy lift kits from companies for example Tough Dog. Their kits are good and if someone is prepared to engineer a 4-6 inch lift from this company why cant there be a system whereby the product sold eg patrol 4 inch lift kit and if fitted by a authroised workshop be legal for a little more in the price. What i mean by this is you dont need to get your truck engineered because the product is alreeady deemed safe by the RTA or other authority. Its always the same lift kit it doesnt change from truck to truck.

I can't imagine anyone promising exactly 50mm lift, if your invoice says 50mm I'd hope that enougth just as tyres will vary a bit from the side wall markings.
Regards Charlie

In WA the max height for the headlight is 1200mm not sure if this is to the centre or top of the light.
I have to agree with JD with the regulating of 4x4s will only help us who do mods and stay legal and if you have spent the money on mods then the eng and lane test aint gunna do any harm and at least it will help for insurance reasons.

As for regulating the heights fark nos they can see the tyres size they can see the body blocks but the susp will be the hardest to implement .

And diff springs for say a 2" lift from diff suppliers are way out some only give 1" some 2" some 3" so they all suposed to be 2" what will happen then do not know

But if the truk passes brake and lane test then it shouldnt matter as long as you dont go swaping springs after

sorry monty but in nsw its actually 1200mm to the centre of the headlights is the max allowed. in last 4wd monthly they did the build up of the 100 series with 35's and 4/5 inch lift and the engineer told them it was over the allowed height.