Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:47 pm**

Is this kinda like a ADR approved line lockers? But using 4 inidivdual lines and cpu controlled.

cheers

Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:55 pm**

what other functions could you program it for ??

hdc ?
electric drive through handbrake ?
bump steer ?

just thinking out loud....

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:20 pm**

with a very limited understanding of this system, being very at risk of a massive flaming and adding a very unlikely theoretical situation I will ask...

could the system bring you unstuck on a descent by applying the brakes and causin the vehicle to unbalance and rollover?

Cheers
Simon

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:40 pm**

shakes wrote:with a very limited understanding of this system, being very at risk of a massive flaming and adding a very unlikely theoretical situation I will ask...

could the system bring you unstuck on a descent by applying the brakes and causin the vehicle to unbalance and rollover?

Cheers
Simon

(1) you can turn it on and off as you need it

(2) you don't need it when going downhill

(3) i doubt this could ever happen - the traction control would release the brakes before anything like that would happen.

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:27 am**

(3) i doubt this could ever happen - the traction control would release the brakes before anything like that would happen.

you know or you hope? I'm not dissing or anything but the chances of people leaving the system on full time are pretty high. and that'd be my biggest fear, even though now i've thought about it a bit more and being off throttle and compression braking during a reasonable descent throws my theory out the window and makes me look like a fool.

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:42 am**

shakes wrote:
(3) i doubt this could ever happen - the traction control would release the brakes before anything like that would happen.
you know or you hope? I'm not dissing or anything but the chances of people leaving the system on full time are pretty high. and that'd be my biggest fear, even though now i've thought about it a bit more and being off throttle and compression braking during a reasonable descent throws my theory out the window and makes me look like a fool.

OK, I am not an expert on the system by any means (Sam and Chuck who developed it were in the same LR club), but from my knowledge of the system and thinking logically...

The system works by sensing that one wheel is moving faster than the other wheel on the same axle. If that happens then it activates the brakes slightly on that wheel until the two wheels return to the same speed of rotation. If you were going down a hill without using the brakes then the system would probably not even activate. If you were using the brakes and you became cross axled then the system may activate, but only until the other wheel starts to turn as well.

The proof that the system works is that it has been fitted to all the haultech buggies with no problems, and they have gone down some pretty steep hills with the etc engaged.

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:46 pm**

just reading through this and was wondering if this system could be used to advantage with the remote kill switch that has been discussed in general chit chat. could you remotely operate the brakes in case of emergency rather then killing the power (or both in order). That way you have a bit of control of the car to stop it, then turn the engine off, or i supose by then you could use the switch mounted on the car anyway. just thinking out loud.................

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:21 pm**

Dunno that full brakes would immobilize the car if someone inside was using full throttle.

Wouldnt do the engine and gearbox much good at the very least....

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:24 pm**

Beastmavster wrote:Dunno that full brakes would immobilize the car if someone inside was using full throttle.

Wouldnt do the engine and gearbox much good at the very least....

good call, but surely the brakes can be used to advantage. so keeping the engine running for brake boosters and the like would be good yeh.......but i dunno, so im not saying its the best idea, just a possibility

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:25 pm**

We actually discussed this as a joke on friday, its a good idea but the remote kill switch cost $200.00 and the t/control would cost $3000.00 so not really something we could inforce.

But yes it could be set-up!

Posted: **Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:25 am**

Well consider the benefits of catching the guy and kicking shit out of him and $3000 seems well spent

Posted: **Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:28 am**

i knew i was on to something..................

Posted: **Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:39 pm**

Overkill is about to fit TC to my brothers GQ

He chose it for a couple of reasons

He has a family and won't be doing the hardcore stuff, but wants the ability of a locked vehicle.

It is less likely to break stuff and even though that is unlikely with the driving he will be doing, It will probably reduce wear on those components

You can turn it on when you get to a track and leave it on.

It is cheaper than twin lockers

Posted: **Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:07 pm**

Humpy wrote:Overkill is about to fit TC to my brothers GQ

Did it get installed?
Or will it be ready in "a couple of weeks"

This product sounds awesome to me, I would love to put it on my Suzi GV.
Will it ever be available? Will only Queenslanders be able to enjoy its subtle delights?
Ahh the questions, we can only hope.

just DO IT, DO IT!!

Posted: **Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:20 pm**

No it didnt get installed

It was the first on a patrol and was going to a remote location so
Sam Overton was concerned about fitting it

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:58 pm**

SAM YOU KEEP SAYING ABOUT THE FRONT AXELS BREAKING AND THE CV'S BUT YOU ARE ONLY RUNNING LITTLE LUX AXELS YOU CANT TELL ME THAT YOU HAVE BROKEN THE 404'S HAVE YOU

MY OTHER QUESTION IS HOW IS IT IN THE MUD

I MEAN THE SENSORS COS EVERY NOW AND THEN ALL OFF US I A QUICK DIP

BUT I COULD NOT SEEN A LOCKER BEING BETTER OM ROCK WERE WHEEL POSI AND STEERING IS SO IMPORTANT

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:06 pm**

Strange Rover wrote:This is what I said in the last thread about traction control - and in terms of how well it works nothing has changed:

I guess the biggest question is how well does our electronic traction control work? Is it as good as lockers in terms of making a vehicle able to drive over stuff?

Let me state first off that in terms of getting the most amount of traction possible you can never do any better than a 100% locking differential.

So looking at hardcore type wheeling (like competition type stuff etc) - I would guess that in well over 90% of situations that requires twin lockers to get through you will get exactly the same result with our traction control. Now in the last 10% of situations you will definately notice that the traction control behaves differently to the lockers. The most common situation for me would be a steep rocky climb with offset ledges - something that you need to drive with throttle and momentum (whether lockers or ETC) - with the ETC you will start to notice the time delay and extra wheelspin that the traction control needs to operate. If the climb is difficult enough then you may find that a rig with lockers will be able to drive it and one with ETC wont. That being said I have never found an obstacle that I could drive with double lockers (ARB) that I couldnt drive totally open diffed with the traction control (this was back in the day when I ran ARB'd dana 44s as well as the traction control on the blue rover with 36in tyres and then 42in tyres)

These last 10% of situations are also the places that you really risk breaking something (like CVs or crownwheels for instance). The traction control is just so much easier on axle components. I would guess that an ARBed axle with 35in tyres would be about the same strength as a traction controlled axle with 42s - and Im totally serious on this point. The traction control is just that much easier on axles it isnt funny. Out of the hard core rigs that I wheel with that run hilux front CVs which is basically myself on 38s, Adrian on 38s and Rob on 42s that run front traction control compared with Tony on 38s and Beebee on 38s with front lockers the difference is amazing. Myself, Adrian and Rob drive the arse out of our rigs with absolutely no concern with front axle breakage and we rearly break CVs. Tony, who really drives carefully with his front locker breaks more CVs than the 3 of us combined and Beebee, who drives the arse out of his rig with his front locker breaks more than Tony again.

So it really depends on how strong your axles are. If you got axles that you carnt break then the lockers are the perfect choice - you could never do better than that but if you are worried about breaking stuff (particularly the front axle) and you find yourself turning off the front locker on the difficult throttling climbs or only use the front locker as an absolutely last resort then the traction control will probably make the rig more capable.

At the moment in my tube buggy which runs hilux limited slips and traction control (no lockers at all which is why its called the Lockless) there is nothing that this rig hasnt been able to drive that has been driven by Tony (twin lockers), Adrian (rear locker and front traction control) the Mogrover (twin lockers), Beebee (twin lockers), or Rob (rear locker and front traction control). In fact there is one new climb that so far only the Lockless had managed to drive and nobody else has. Tony has been out there a couple of times and he has broken both times and has yet to drive it. It took me a few tries to get it (cause its a bit offcamber) and I actually rolled completely over back onto my wheels before i drove it on my next attempt.

In the non hard core type wheeling, the sort of wheeling that you are going to do with your wife and kids in the car, I couldnt imagine there will be a situation where the traction control wont work as well as the lockers. It will probably work better because its totally automatic - you just turn it on and forget about it whether you are driving uphill, downhill, corning or on the flat. The traction control wont do a thing until you need it. The second big plus for this type of rig that again the traction control is just so much easier on the axles and CVs. And the traction control will fit any vehicle - its only the bracketry that will be different.

So if you are going to build a full on comp rig. Is the traction control something you should look at? I would say definately yes especially on the front axle. Most modern rear axles are strong enough to handle a rear locker so a locker there is the best way to go but in the front if you got some bigger tyres and reasonable horsepower then the traction control without a locker will probably make a better rig simple because you will be able to drive it harder without breaking it. On a full comp rig I probably wouldnt run it in the rear because there are times when the time delay of the traction control might slow you down - the lockless doesent have a rear locker and I do notice that its not locked although this hasnt ever stopped me driving anywhere that a rear locked rid has driven (like Tony or Adrian). Most modern rigs do have factory rear limited slip diffs and the traction control working on a limited slip diff is very, very close to a 100% locker. If you are running 35 spline cro mo shafts and CTMs on a Dana 60 then lockers will be best

Sam

frp88, this may help you!

Also the 404's have broken.

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:10 pm**

Also T/Control is not targeted to someone running 404's, Dana 60's or the likes. If you have those diffs you would have them Locked.

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:17 pm**

frp88 wrote:SAM YOU KEEP SAYING ABOUT THE FRONT AXELS BREAKING AND THE CV'S BUT YOU ARE ONLY RUNNING LITTLE LUX AXELS YOU CANT TELL ME THAT YOU HAVE BROKEN THE 404'S HAVE YOU MY OTHER QUESTION IS HOW IS IT IN THE MUD I MEAN THE SENSORS COS EVERY NOW AND THEN ALL OFF US I A QUICK DIP BUT I COULD NOT SEEN A LOCKER BEING BETTER OM ROCK WERE WHEEL POSI AND STEERING IS SO IMPORTANT

It works perfect in Mud. Only 4 cars got to the 95 point mark in the mud run at Tuff Truck. First was Pete in his yellow 40 on 49s who cleared the 100, Dobbin on 44s and Matt Pasani on 46s got to the 95 point mark. I was the only other vehicle to get to the 95 Point mark NO LOCKERS. Traction Control Only with LSDs both ends. And 37" BFG KRAWLERS. Even the Mog on 42s with Lockers only got to the 90.

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:19 pm**

frp88 wrote:SAM YOU KEEP SAYING ABOUT THE FRONT AXELS BREAKING AND THE CV'S BUT YOU ARE ONLY RUNNING LITTLE LUX AXELS YOU CANT TELL ME THAT YOU HAVE BROKEN THE 404'S HAVE YOU MY OTHER QUESTION IS HOW IS IT IN THE MUD I MEAN THE SENSORS COS EVERY NOW AND THEN ALL OFF US I A QUICK DIP BUT I COULD NOT SEEN A LOCKER BEING BETTER OM ROCK WERE WHEEL POSI AND STEERING IS SO IMPORTANT

ooowww my ears....

please refer to the below and adjust...

buy the tuff truck DVD and look out for the orange Haultech lockless monster and make your own judgement

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:37 pm**

YES YES is that better and dvd iam getting as b/present so i have to wait another 10 days i hope it a longer one than the 2002 one it was only 70minutes but thats 4wdmonthly for ya did finale cut do it

tony i have see who good your buggy is on a no. off downloads while playing at the big "O" i've got double diff lock in the middy if i trade the falcon in on 100 series i think you t/c would be more than enough for it also easyer for my wife too use if stuck flick switch

so the price is

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:33 pm**

frp88 wrote:YES YES is that better and dvd iam getting as b/present so i have to wait another 10 days i hope it a longer one than the 2002 one it was only 70minutes but thats 4wdmonthly for ya did finale cut do it tony i have see who good your buggy is on a no. off downloads while playing at the big "O" i've got double diff lock in the middy if i trade the falcon in on 100 series i think you t/c would be more than enough for it also easyer for my wife too use if stuck flick switch so the price is

I wasnt in my Buggy at Tuff Truck. I was driving the Orange Defender. You wont miss it in the mud. Oh yeah and the only reason i gave up was because the front diff let loose. It was a bad gear set up not caused in any part by the Traction Control.

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:07 pm**

the dovetailed tray gave you plenty of access to the mud spray from behind too. you got so filthy. good times

Posted: **Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:53 pm**

are there any prices yet?

Posted: **Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:53 pm**

whiteknight wrote:are there any prices yet?

Try contacting strange rover off this board

Posted: **Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:06 pm**

whiteknight wrote:are there any prices yet?

Looking at $2800 installed by us (Haultech)

Sam

Posted: **Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:13 am**

so that would be any 4bee how long would you guys need it for

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:26 am**

Strange Rover wrote:
Looking at $2800 installed by us (Haultech)

Sam

Thats interesting

Sam Keck (overkill) has bumped his price from $2750 for my brother to $3500 quoted for my dads lux, apparently because Haultech are using better components now

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:03 am**

Humpy wrote:
Strange Rover wrote:
Looking at $2800 installed by us (Haultech)

Sam
Thats interesting

Sam Keck (overkill) has bumped his price from $2750 for my brother to $3500 quoted for my dads lux, apparently because Haultech are using better components now

Like I said - installed by us.

For us the basic components that can be fit to any vehicle is easy to produce - the hard part is actually making these components fit any vehicle.

When we started looking at selling the traction control we were just going to fit it to any sort of vehicle that we could. We have thought about how this would or could evolve and we have now changed our direction a bit.

Our plan now for the traction control is to initially develop kits for vehicles that you carnt get air lockers for - we believe that this is the easiest and most cost effective way for us to introduce this to the market. It also gets around the issue of our product being directly compared against the airlockers etc. which will always be an issue for this product (look at the number of times I have answered this question).

The other issue is of course being able to service this product - until we get to the point were we have lots of these things running around and lots of different people that know a bit about them (to fix them if they ever fawk up) we will be picky about who we sell to and where the vehicle is going to operate. The last thing we need is for our product to go somewhere and rip a wire off something and stop working and have no body to be able to fix it.

So if somebody rings up and wants traction control on something that fits these criteria then I bend over backwards and get it installed anywhere for the $2800 because this is the market we want to target - if there is no other locker option ill even make it happen if the vehicle goes to a remote area (which just takes more risk on our part dollar wise to make happen)

If somebody has a vehicle that you can buy airlockers for then I will ask lots of questions as to why they want the traction control and what they are going to do with it. I dont want anybody buying this product with false expectations cause thats not the way to get a new product happening.

Basically in the case of putting the setup on a hilux Im not developing a kit for it so to do that install its a full custom job (or a job thats not subsidised by Haultech) So for Overkill this is where the extra expense is - he has to make up the install kit himself.

Sam

Posted: **Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:20 am**

I honestly do not believe that this product could be compared to air lockers.

There are advantages and disadvantages for both products. The main advantage i can see for the Traction Control is that you are less likely to break CV joints when used in the front end as it will control unnecessary wheel spin.

The traction provided by an air locker in some cases will be of added benifit, however the aim for most is to be able to drive your rig home at the end of the day without having to do repairs.

Cost of traction control $XX

Cost of air locker $XX + heavy duty CV's $XX + heavy duty axles $XX

Sure there are many that would wish to run traction control, heavy CV's and heavy duty axles.

Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Any update on Haultech traction control?

ETC

Re: ETC

Re: ETC