Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Another option is to fit a (Defender) salisbury to the rear (with the torque you have it may still be possible to break toy rears). It will bolt straight in (may be a couple of fuel tank clearance issues), but if you want 4.1 ratios you will have to buy a Dana 60 ring and pinion - from an F-truck parts supplier or from the US (also need a D60 pinion flange). Then if you need stronger axles later you can upgrade the stock 24 spline 1.24" to JM or maxi drive axles, or even to 30 spline 1.3" or 35 spline 1.5" from JM.

Maxi Drive 24 spline lockers for a Salisbury (with axles) are only about $1200+fitting, so if you can get the R&P ratio you need cheaply it may be another cheap option. The only problem with the MD locker is if you want to upgrade the axles later it is not easy to go beyond 30 spline.

i just finds it hard that the toy diffs are stronger, how about a larger centre on rangie axle tubes (like ford 9" conversions) may be nissan or something, l have seen ford 9" rear done but with no axles ( could still buy it if a good option) but would have to get axles made. What about early jeep cherokee?? whats in them, any other options or ones you have heard of?

Check this. The LHS is a Toy 4.1, the RHS a Rover 3.54. Even though the Toy CW/P is a lower ratio, the pinion is huge compared to even the Rover 3.54, which will spread the load through the gear teeth a lot better. Thats how its done.

I have a friend with a 9inch rear conversion.
9inch centre, custom axles, then rover outers.

It really sounds as if your not sure...
Rear up on the Nissans, it seems that will make you happier.

Just more work, and other custom bits, more engineering, new wheels etc...

Anyway,
Dave.

not sure and confused, there are to many options, but i think its either toys or maxi's, just need to decide, i think i'm trying to feel convinced that one is better than the other.

The toy ring and pinion is a hypoid design (which means that the pinion is below/above the centreline of the crownwheel). This makes it stronger than the rover diff where the pinion is pointing directly at the centre of the crownwheel, since the hypoid design has a greater tooth contact area between the crownwheel and the pinion.

The Rover diff has an 8.25" crownwheel, the toy diff has an 8" crownwheel. If you are really worried about strength, the 110 salisbury has about a 10" crownwheel (about the same size as the biggest nissan diff).

i ahve been looking at options for my diffs too..and after reading all of this i am confused. doesnt jacmac sell a hyphoid locker setup to bolt into a rangie? i was going to go with maxidrive but now i see that rover cwps are crap. can anyone break it down into real laymans terms for me? basically i do a lot of offraoding and hope to run a 302 windsor so i will have plenty of power going to the wheels. and having already broke 3 diffs (the last of which decided part should tear out of the diff housing and part of it should embed itsefl into the inside of the diff housin) im not to keen on breaking them everytime i want to go bashing.....HELP

I'm in the process of modifying 100 series diffs (front with Nissan GQ high pinion centre) to go under my rangie.

I went this way mainly because I already had the 100 series stuff lying around. There are some small advantages over Nissan GQ, like stonger cv's, full floating rear axles, centred rear diff and brakes.

If I didn't have the toyota stuff, I would have probably have gone with GQ axles and high pinion diffs front and rear.

just some questions, how many have broken aftermarket diff centers, how many have broken cwp and who has broken after market axles
cheers ,serg

ps rover/sals stuff only

Aquarangie wrote:The rear unit on my 83 must be as a guess about 15 years old, been transfered over to 3 diffrent Rangies (got it off one of my previous Rangies I own, was on it when I bought that particular Rangie )It's now a bit long in the tooth and takes a bit of time for the locking dog to engage, it still performs the task without any major issues.

Trav

Only just took note of what you said here Trav. You should pull that long side axle out now before you can not get it out. I bet its twisted at the locking dog spline. this is generaly the first sign of a twisted Maxi Axle.

uninformed wrote:just some questions, how many have broken aftermarket diff centers, how many have broken cwp and who has broken after market axles
cheers ,serg

ps rover/sals stuff only

I don't know anyone who has broken an aftermarket centre (i.e. MD). But I could probably list 20 or 30 instances where rover ring and pinions have broken on MD locker equipped vehicles. Usually rear and often when recovering another vehicle.

I only know of 3 MD axles that have twisted/broken:
One that Slunnie mentioned ? (mate on 34's - twisted???)
The one that Ruff/Haultech has
One owned by Glen (v8grunt) - but this was likely to be one of Mals old EN25 axles, not the HYTUFF ones.

Are you collecting info for Mal or just curious???

any info i get thats relevant, i pass onto Mal. i don't think he gets into the computer thing too much as it would probably frustrate the shit out of him. alot of miss information. but first and for most all questions are for my personal knowledge or lack there of. as it seems like alot have given up on rover diffs i'm hoping that this won't have an effect on the R&D of future developments for aftermarket parts etc.
serg

uninformed wrote:any info i get thats relevant, i pass onto Mal. i don't think he gets into the computer thing too much as it would probably frustrate the shit out of him. alot of miss information. but first and for most all questions are for my personal knowledge or lack there of. as it seems like alot have given up on rover diffs i'm hoping that this won't have an effect on the R&D of future developments for aftermarket parts etc.
serg

I think that for plenty of people - especially people doing touring, they want to keep the drivetrain as stock as possible - so there is still a pretty big market. Stock size tyres to about 33"-35" (depending on truck/gearing/engine/driving) seem to be fine with rover stuff.

IMO for the hardcore side I think Mal should develop a 1.5" 35 spline version of the Salisbury locker.

uninformed wrote:any info i get thats relevant, i pass onto Mal. i don't think he gets into the computer thing too much as it would probably frustrate the shit out of him. alot of miss information. but first and for most all questions are for my personal knowledge or lack there of. as it seems like alot have given up on rover diffs i'm hoping that this won't have an effect on the R&D of future developments for aftermarket parts etc.
serg

Hey Serg dont get me wrong im not saying Mals axles are Crap. Its just what i have experianced. Now i have prob seen rovers doing a lot more things the average rover has done than others have seen.

Mals axles are prob fine in almost 99% of apllications and over a prelonged life they may be better than Jeffs. But in the set ups i have seen them in they have failed. Non of these were stock Rovers. They were all moded more than most.

Now as for who has the better customer Service, then Mal wins hands down. You couldnt find a better vendor to deal with. Im surprised Jeff(JM) is still in business due to his customer service.

Hey Serg dont get me wrong im not saying Mals axles are Crap. Its just what i have experianced. Now i have prob seen rovers doing a lot more things the average rover has done than others have seen.

Mals axles are prob fine in almost 99% of apllications and over a prelonged life they may be better than Jeffs. But in the set ups i have seen them in they have failed. Non of these were stock Rovers. They were all moded more than most.

Now as for who has the better customer Service, then Mal wins hands down. You couldnt find a better vendor to deal with. Im surprised Jeff(JM) is still in business due to his customer service.[/quote]

hey tony, i didn't think you where saying his axles where crap. if it wasn't for people like you and sam etc, the sport would never get to where it is and the products avalible to us, even those developed for touring would not exsist.,saying that because of the quality going into comp products has pulled up the level of touring type products. eveyone has there own opinions and goes in that direction. getting back to the rover diff. i guess it comes down to value for money and the basic design, as to why most hard core wheelers are going the toy route.
so what are the advantages of a spiral bevel over a hypoid?
does a rear diff cop more abuse than the front(talking centers and cwp)? what dia JM axles are run in the rover housing with toy center ?
did you get my message re the front 3 link on the orange 110?

cheers and much respect, serg

uninformed wrote: getting back to the rover diff.
so what are the advantages of a spiral bevel over a hypoid?

That is pretty self-evident when you look at the picture above - compare the pinion size and length of each "tooth". A huge amount more gear contact area to spread the load in a hypoid.

does a rear diff cop more abuse than the front(talking centers and cwp)?

In my experience yes - most of the load is usually on the rear. The only exception to this is when the front end bounces/lifts and comes back down with a wheel spinning.

what dia JM axles are run in the rover housing with toy center ?

Usually the stock toyota size - 1.3" 30 spline.

ISUZUROVER wrote:

uninformed wrote: getting back to the rover diff.
so what are the advantages of a spiral bevel over a hypoid?

That is pretty self-evident when you look at the picture above - compare the pinion size and length of each "tooth". A huge amount more gear contact area to spread the load in a hypoid.

hey ben read the question, i'm slow not dead. i asked whats the pros of a spiral bevel over a hypoid????????? if any. i know they are not as strong.

how are the aftermarket rover cwp's going? anyone?

serg

RUFF wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:Slunnie pretty much sums it up.

I've seen 2 Maxi drive rear axles twisted at the spline where the locking dog runs. Am yet to see a JacMac axle twist. We run them in the Lockless and im about to run 35Spline versions in the Back of my Buggy. I beleive HY-TUFF is a good product but im not convinced its better than EN25 in this application.

this is a great point where out and out strenght is different to a high strenght, high wear (road milage) design. two great products doing slightly different jobs.

hope i'm on the right track
serg

For us the advantage of spiral bevel is the pinion and driveshaft is higher (except for high pinion hypoid).

Dave (bushy555 on this forum) broke this maxi axle in his bushie.

thanks john,and all. is that the locking insert sleeve thats shattered
serg
and whats the black colouring on the axle

uninformed wrote:
hey ben read the question, i'm slow not dead. i asked whats the pros of a spiral bevel over a hypoid????????? if any. i know they are not as strong.

how are the aftermarket rover cwp's going? anyone?

serg

Sorry Serg, don't think you are slow (or dead for that matter) . Too much coffee and too little sleep trying to get my lab equipment working.

As John said the only advantage is the pinion clearance from the ground. Though with new high pinion diffs that run on the drive side of the gears in a rear application (i.e. Hi9 (ford 9")) this negates any benefits of the spiral bevel for hardcore offroading. Big hypoid diffs like the D60/salisbury are strong enough on the coast side for a high pinion diff to be used in the rear. Unfortunately Land-Rover never made a high pinion salisbury.

The Colorado offroading pics I showed - the red 90 is running a GBR 4.1 or 4.75 (can't remember which) front rover ring and pinion (rear Sals/D60), and it is holding up pretty well with 37" wheels. Rear was another matter though - hence the sals/D60 there now.

Wow has this ever turned into an apples and oranges discussion.

A built 30 spline axle is an apple. A built Dana 60 axle is an orange. They both have there limits and different applications.

If you want bullet proof, a built Toy setup with Longs and aftermarket axles is really only good to around 36" tires. Many use bigger tires, but they can/will break. A local Jeeper I wheel with that has a ton of experience and seen everything break says he would never go above 35" with aftermarket 30 spline (in a Toy or a 44).

The 60 axles with built 35 spline have their limits also. Probably around 42" if you want to be bullet proof.

Around here there are guys with built Rockwells and MOGs that break them. These guys would kill a built 60 axle is two seconds.

We broke a 60 ton Rockwell axle at work last year. You do not even want to know how big these puppies are.

Nothing is unbreakable. It is all a case of choosing something that suits your gearing, engine and tire size.

The Maxi-Drive or JM axles in 24 spline are stronger than the Rover R&P, so it is a pointless discussion. If you need more than the Rover R&P, the 30 spline Toy center route is the answer. Again, the 30 spline aftermarket axles are stronger than the Toy R&P. If that is not enough then you go 60s with 35 spline aftermarket shafts. Above that 1.5 ton Rockwells or built MOGs.... It is not rocket science.

its not rocket sicence...... no because apparently you have to get out and pull bits of shit off before you come home, sounds similar
serg

Serg, another 'advantage' of the spiral beval design is that it is more power efficient than a hypoid diff and therefore generates less heat, hence its use in purpose built race car transaxles.

Interesting comments about the spiral vs hypoid gearsets. Firstly the hypoid has the axis of the pinion offset to the crown wheel centre. The spiral pinion axis goes through the centre of the crown wheel. That's the most significant difference visually. I do not think the LR diff is a spiral arangement, its a hypoid. The second point in relation to strength is as follows

"Hypoid gears are usually designed so that the pinion has a larger spiral angle than the gear (crown wheel). The advantage of such design is that the pinion diameter is increased and is stronger than a corresponding spiral bevel pinion."

Food for thought.

Buggerlugs wrote:... I do not think the LR diff is a spiral arangement, its a hypoid...

Yes they are, except some rovers were fitted non-rover axles eg. salisbury.

You may have looked at a salisbury rear in a rover and concluded that they were rover diffs

John,

You are right, I checked last night, to my embasament. Yes the Salsbury is a hypoid, but the stadard rover is spiral, probably why its not such a high strength unit.