Outer Limits 4x4 Board

cj wrote:I would like to see the ability for the 150mm to be made up of bigger than 50mm max tyres. Diff clearance is what I want and 50mm max on Zuk ain't much. I'd rather have no body lift and cut the guards.

then you would be affecting the brakes too much, I imagine they feel brakes testing is a bit beyond the scope of what they are doing

reading through it all there are a few points that by my understanding of what they are saying is a bit too good to be true, IE

I'll example them on a zook , cause thats what I have

diff susbstitution allowed without keeping to original track, IE hilux diffs allowed

track increase and diameter increase based on new diff, so 50mm more than Hilux standard and 33's?

suspension substitution, complete assembly from another vehicle, so say Springover using hilux setup or coils using arms from a rangie

50mm lift over standard for substituted suspension, so add 2 inch to already springover.

Ive read it a few times and cant see anywhere where it says such a combination is not allowed and I am used to trying to decipher stupid rules from QLD transports stupid roadworthy rules.

I can't read the pdf file so was wondering if anyone could clarify:

This is a National code?

It is slightly more accomodating than the old code?

NSW and Vic state laws have been more lenient than the national code in the past by allowing engineer to certified mods beyond the national code limits?

This is changing in near future?

its a code of practice for 'approved persons' to plate modifications. It doesn't say you can't do other things, just then you have to have it specifically approved by the relevant authority.

ok so these aren't the rules of what you can do without an engineers cert?

So if I whack in a 50mm susp lift and 50mm larger tyres I need to get it engineered?

zooki wrote:

cj wrote:I would like to see the ability for the 150mm to be made up of bigger than 50mm max tyres. Diff clearance is what I want and 50mm max on Zuk ain't much. I'd rather have no body lift and cut the guards.

then you would be affecting the brakes too much, I imagine they feel brakes testing is a bit beyond the scope of what they are doing

The thing is there are easy brake upgrades available and this part of the Code is only for suspension and steering. I'd like to see the rest of the Code that covers things like brakes and engines.

zooki wrote:reading through it all there are a few points that by my understanding of what they are saying is a bit too good to be true, IE

I'll example them on a zook , cause thats what I have

diff susbstitution allowed without keeping to original track, IE hilux diffs allowed

track increase and diameter increase based on new diff, so 50mm more than Hilux standard and 33's?

suspension substitution, complete assembly from another vehicle, so say Springover using hilux setup or coils using arms from a rangie

50mm lift over standard for substituted suspension, so add 2 inch to already springover.

Ive read it a few times and cant see anywhere where it says such a combination is not allowed and I am used to trying to decipher stupid rules from QLD transports stupid roadworthy rules.

Great, but if I don't want to do a SAS and my IFS Vit has a wider track than a Hilux then all I can do is run a 29" tyre If it's braking is fine and it can cope with a lane change test then I don't see why a larger than 50mm tyre couldn't be run.

cj wrote:then I don't see why a larger than 50mm tyre couldn't be run.

He said that in his above post -

Larger tyre = more rolling mass to stop with standard brakes.

DaveS3 wrote:

cj wrote:then I don't see why a larger than 50mm tyre couldn't be run.

He said that in his above post -

Larger tyre = more rolling mass to stop with standard brakes.

it's not the mass, its the leverage from the extra diameter

they seem to be pretty open to comment, cj why dont you make your opinions heard, you seem pretty switched on so they may listen to you or let you know if they are working on something else

so many bitching. every aspect is better than it is now. what do you expect a form that a servo can tick to say for example a vit with 38 is legal without looking into the 100 thing that make it dangerous

Its like i said before its a practice - meaning before you start mods you don't have to see and eng or make application to the dot prior to mods as its in the code and you can asume it will pass if it is done up to what they require (same as say something basic like a engine swap is now, do it to the code and a blue plate and $70 and its legal). another eg you know 6" lift is legal if you address the things specified in the code and a blue plate is a cheap easy task.

I does not say more serious mods are not allowed it says they are not in the scope of this practice. the futher you deviate from this practice the harder it gets for good reason. if you drive a vehicle certified under tha practice and you kill someone you are covered - meaning they view it as an acceptable design change and they are responsible to a point as it is their code. would you let someone certify things you know may not be safe especially with all the cowboys in this sport.

safety factors are designed into vehicles such that they deem a 50mm tyre increase safe if xyz is addressed. what they are not highlighting in the code for simplicity is the 100's of things that are affected by the size increase (that they are happy with). for example they don't say cv's must be upgraded on constant 4x4's with 50mm bigger tyres because they know 50mm is highly unlikely to cause a problem. imagine if some clown didn't upgrade cv's on a rangerover for example fitted 44's and drove around with the centre diff locked. a broken cv could lock the wheel up and cause a fatality so they won't allow this extreme modification under the (basic easy to pass, common) code of practice.

That said you are allowed to fit 44's to anything providing every single thing they can throw at you is covered. siggy did it in nsw. google and you will find a copy of the application he made to the dot. it covered everything from brake distances with the 44's to exhaust noise. if you meet the adr's you can do it.

what the problem we have been having is that this is not worth the hassle for 35's and a 6" lift. this is why this draft is so very good.

cheers justin

OK I am starting to understand. Except your last sentence bru21- do you mean 6" lift and 35's are easier to be legal now?

From what I understand, easy to certify mods on Patrol or Cruiser should be 4" lift with 34" tyres (since they come standard with 32's or 7.50r16's).

and Hilux with 31's.

I emailed them the other week with my comments and I think everyone should be happy with what has happened and take it all one step at a time.

START EMAILING POSITIVE COMMENTS PEOPLES

LudaCris

slosh wrote:OK I am starting to understand. Except your last sentence bru21- do you mean 6" lift and 35's are easier to be legal now?

From what I understand, easy to certify mods on Patrol or Cruiser should be 4" lift with 34" tyres (since they come standard with 32's or 7.50r16's).

and Hilux with 31's.

my last sentence just ment - atm there are no options that are reasonable for a 6" and 35"s so everyone does it illegally. if they allow 6" and 33 (maybe34's) then you would be stupid not to comply for the sake of an inch of tyre and everyone is at a good compromise. I am just pointing out just how much better it is

also good on you ludaChris

Can someone how a 50mm bigger tyre gives 50mm lift rather than 25mm?
It's a bit difficult for metric tyres as well,I don't think there are many 29 or 30 inch tyres available for a 16 inch rim.
Regards Charlie

Charlie wrote:Can someone how a 50mm bigger tyre gives 50mm lift rather than 25mm?

I think some have just overlooked that fact.

blkmav wrote:ok so these aren't the rules of what you can do without an engineers cert?

So if I whack in a 50mm susp lift and 50mm larger tyres I need to get it engineered?

You'll be able to have a 50mm suspension lift OR 50mm tyres without engineering,both will require an engineering cert.
Tyres cannot be larger tha 50mm,you can't get it it engineered.
Regards Charlie

I think their restrictions are along the right track...

I think the tyre and suspension limits upped to 75mm would be a lot more user friendly. I think that would make all the difference.

Patrols could run 35's, smaller cars could run 33's.

I think theres good reason to be capping the max tyre size though. hitting a pothole with a bigger/heavier tyre would create a heap more stress on things.

Not too sure if the 50mm limit on the suspension is reasonable or not. I guess there would be some cars where going more will require other mods.

if that was 75mm also i would have no problems at all with them.

i cant find the 50mm suspension limit anywhere...

perhaps not looking hard enough.

cj wrote:

zooki wrote:

cj wrote:I would like to see the ability for the 150mm to be made up of bigger than 50mm max tyres. Diff clearance is what I want and 50mm max on Zuk ain't much. I'd rather have no body lift and cut the guards.

then you would be affecting the brakes too much, I imagine they feel brakes testing is a bit beyond the scope of what they are doing

The thing is there are easy brake upgrades available and this part of the Code is only for suspension and steering. I'd like to see the rest of the Code that covers things like brakes and engines.

You can access the rest of the draft code thorugh here http://www.dotars.gov.au/transreg/vsb/vsb_ncop.aspx

Syzygy wrote:i cant find the 50mm suspension limit anywhere...

perhaps not looking hard enough.

its in the checklist.... at the last page I think?

As I read it, the code of practice (if followed) will provide easy approval of a total of 150mm of lift comprising:

Body lift: 75mm
Spring lift: 50mm
Tyre lift: 25mm (i.e. 50mm larger tyre)

As Bru said, it may be possible to approve more but not under the simplicity of this code of practice.

Steve

3" body lift passes and 3" supension lift dosent
U would think they would of made it 3" supension and only 2" body.

but it is good news to 99% of the 4x4 out there.

I agree, it will make things a lot better here in SA. It means I can legally fit the tyres I want to!

I can understand why all the people with "heavy duty" lifts and the like are complaining- but realistically I'm surprised how good the new rules actually are.

I don't understand what is so good about the proposed new laws. I spoke to an (NSW) engineer today, and its all bad news- for everyone except maybe qld.

No truck in Australia will have more than 2" sus lift and 2" tyre increase- ie no 35's. BTW u will still need engineer approval for these limited mods. So that means braking improvements, speedo adjustments etc etc.

I reckon if we could run 35's on patrol/ cruiser diffs (ie max 75mm tyre diameter increase) then it would be much better.

The other issue with tyres on a GQ is that you are only allowed to run 15x8 rims. Therefore you will not be able to fit 33x12.5x15 as the 12.5 needs a 10 inch rim.

you are allowed 10's

bru21 wrote:you are allowed 10's

Not in Vic

I haven't read the draft code, only the comments made here. Trusting Bru21 to know his stuff, it sounds like the code is a nice step forward on a paper, but it won't help too many OL members.

If suspension is limited to 50mm lift, body to 75mm lift and tyres to 25mm lift (50mm diameter) then 150mm is the absolute maximum lift - where's this "trade-off" people were talking about?

A 50mm tyre increase on a Suzuki's 27" tyres is much more significant than a 50mm increase on a Patrol's 32" tyres. A % increase would make more sense to me - in fact, I reckon a 10% allowance over factory would be great.

If this code of practice is adopted in its current state, I foresee a new market in height adjustable suspension mods - take it over the pits on low, and crank it up off-road. Hmmm - air bags are looking good...

Scott

Charlie wrote:

blkmav wrote:ok so these aren't the rules of what you can do without an engineers cert?

So if I whack in a 50mm susp lift and 50mm larger tyres I need to get it engineered?

You'll be able to have a 50mm suspension lift OR 50mm tyres without engineering,both will require an engineering cert.
Tyres cannot be larger tha 50mm,you can't get it it engineered.
Regards Charlie

The tyres is diameter - so 50mm diameter = 25mm lift.

If you're in QLD you'll be happy - other states (esp VIC and NSW) less so.

But it's better than having our sport legislated out of existance.

the one it's gonna be tough on is the zook boys..... The maximum is still pretty small - 235/75/15 is still gonna be illegal.

Max tyre size 28.3" what's that work out to (205/75/15 = 26.3") - other than a worn set of 235/75/15

Better than no insurance and constant police hassles.

blkmav wrote:

bru21 wrote:you are allowed 10's

Not in Vic

But you will be under this legislation.