Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Budeye wrote:

popeye wrote:Just put it in already

Bloody ball breaker ... I'm doing research here!

I agree with popeye - enough talking and thinking - time for action!!! Do you want to be driving your IIA???

I do indeed ... just want to make good choices for it whilst rebuilding it - I'm not planning on going through this again any time soon!

Now - I'm cool to do it - can you provide any pics showing the set-up with extended shackles and wedges etc for my reference? I haven't seen the setup in the flesh so a visual would help - and I have searched the web and not much has turned up, so ... ?

1 - Do I stick longer shackles front and rear or only rear?
2 - Do bump stops need altering?
3 - How does the sals influence your custom spring set up?
4 - How will the extended shackles effect steering geometry for an 88?
5 - Should I weld the spring mounts in such a way that automatically makes the diff nose point upward - will that negate the need for wedges?

Sorry, but a little bit more talking required I'm afraid.

Budeye wrote:I do indeed ... just want to make good choices for it whilst rebuilding it - I'm not planning on going through this again any time soon!

Now - I'm cool to do it - can you provide any pics showing the set-up with extended shackles and wedges etc for my reference? I haven't seen the setup in the flesh so a visual would help - and I have searched the web and not much has turned up, so ... ?

1 - Do I stick longer shackles front and rear or only rear?
2 - Do bump stops need altering?
3 - How does the sals influence your custom spring set up?
4 - How will the extended shackles effect steering geometry for an 88?

Sorry, but a little bit more talking required I'm afraid.

Just joking about getting stuck in - I understand needing to make sure you are doing the right thing.

If I was doing the sals conversion to a SWB. I would weld the spring pads on the same angle as the LWB pads, and fit extended (military/one-ton) shackles to the REAR only. This should give a good diff nose angle, and increased wheel travel. I have seen plenty of 88's with this setup (even with rover diffs) as they claim it gives a better diff/prop angle.

It would not be a good idea to fit them to the front as you will make the front prop angle worse - unless of course you can source a Stage1 axle casing and fit that (the diff nose is angled higher on a stage 1).

If you want discs, you might want to think about fitting a Range rover axle to the front and lengthening the long side of the salisbury by 6". County salisburies are only longer on the long side, you could then use a county long-side axle. The track rod of the RR axle only just squeezes in above the springs, but it does fit if you make the spring pads high enough (I have seen a few conversions now). That gives you front discs and RR track width (which can be useful), and about 2" extra wheel travel per axle. This option involves a bit of welding and fabricating, but in the end you have a wider track and discs (at least on the front).

Fitting the salisbury did not effect my custom springs - in theory the unsprung weight might have made a difference, but I doubt it. With the military rear shackles you could space the bumpstop down by 0.75", but I wouldn't bother, unless you have problems with the wheel rubbing at full articulation.

EDIT - for the disc conversion, the late 200Tdis had a bolt-on rear caliper mount that you can buy from LR, this bolts to the stub-axle flange on the Salisbury. By mixing and matching parts, you can do a bolt-on disc conversion using stock LR parts on the rear.

Thanks Ben ... very instructive!

Thats interesting re- the RR axles ( which I have zero experience of ) because Richard ( Dickyjoe ) from Blackstump is getting rid of his RR axles and I was possibly going to grab them off him - with the idea that they may come in useful for a Disc conversion at a later date. Will ANY RR axle be cool for the mods you are suggesting by the way? So if I read you right ( slight tangent from the sals swap here ) I could use the Salisbury and be able use a bolt on LR disc brake to bolt onto the Sals drum brake axle ... lengthen it ( get an engineer to do it? ) so it matches the length of the RR front axle and then use a bolt on disc brake to mate right onto the front RR axle, yeah? Result would be slightly wider track and discs ONLY on the front - why not the rear as well?

# - Using extended shackles on rear only will give a tilt from the rear towards the nose of the vehicle ( hot rod ) would it not - how severe would it be?

# - What non disc brake set up would you recommend with the sals on the rear?

I may get the RR axles from Richard anyway and just do the basic Sals rear swap for now and perhaps do the RR axles on the 109" Military as both front and rear later.

Simon.

It would make sense to put the strongest drivetrain in the 109 (salisbury rear). And it would bolt straight in. Why not fit RR axles front and rear in the 88" with 3.54 diffs and Suffix B transfer gears. The suffix B (2.88:1) low range will give you a reasonable low (37:1 - almost as good as the 39:1 from a HRTC) and a nice tall high range. All for less money than a HRTC costs. If 3.54 is too high, you can look around for some cheap 4.11 diffs.

The 3.54 diffs are about twice as strong as a rover 4.7, and the RR 10 spline axles are about twice as strong as series 10 spline cheese sticks. on 750's or 285's in an 88 (unlocked) I doubt you would ever break RR axles.

That will give you discs all round and wide track. You just have to cut off all the suspension brackets and weld spring pads on (can cut them off the old axles for the rear - front will need to be custom made slightly higher so the track rod clears the springs).

On the shackles, you could barely notice the difference in the ladies I saw them on, they certainly didn't look like hot rods.

Whoah ... ok!

Now this is some new food for thought. With the wider track using the RR axles on the 88 how far out of the standard Series arches would the wheels protrude ... would I need to add extended wheel arches? I guess the look on an 88 would be allot like a D90 in some respects, no? Ok, so let's say I save the Sals for the 109 ex Mil because it will just bolt right on - I might sell the 109 on for profit but am I to assume that I would be better off with the RR axles on the 88 than just the Sals on the rear of the 88 for strength and options anyway?

I have a Suffix B gearbox in the shed which is the original gearbox - I'm not sure what suffix guts I have in the tranny case with the Suffux A gearbox thats sitting in the Landy right now. So basically I just need to buy Suffix B gears for a tranny case to run with either of my standard 2a main boxes - So I would be able to just bolt on a LR disc kit right onto the RR axles and have discs all round? That sounds pretty good to me actually -

So when you say cut off suspension brackets ... are you talking chassis or RR axles? I guess the suspension brackets are for the coils yeah? Any idea what height I would have to have custom welded for the front axle ... know anybody I could contact who has done this already? By the way, is this all cool with rego sticking RR axles on?

Great idea's Ben ...

EDIT - Found this lightweight with RR axles!



Just wondering also ... would it be possible to get an engineer to shorten the length of the RR axles to match the standard Rover axle or would then interfere with the RR halfshafts and require custom halfshafts - could you get beefed up standard rover halfshafts to match the strength of the RR halfshafts or something? Just more grist for the mill.

Budeye wrote:Whoah ... ok!

Now this is some new food for thought. With the wider track using the RR axles on the 88 how far out of the standard Series arches would the wheels protrude ... would I need to add extended wheel arches? I guess the look on an 88 would be allot like a D90 in some respects, no? Ok, so let's say I save the Sals for the 109 ex Mil because it will just bolt right on - I might sell the 109 on for profit but am I to assume that I would be better off with the RR axles on the 88 than just the Sals on the rear of the 88 for strength and options anyway?

I have a Suffix B gearbox in the shed which is the original gearbox - I'm not sure what suffix guts I have in the tranny case with the Suffux A gearbox thats sitting in the Landy right now. So basically I just need to buy Suffix B gears for a tranny case to run with either of my standard 2a main boxes - So I would be able to just bolt on a LR disc kit right onto the RR axles and have discs all round? That sounds pretty good to me actually -

So when you say cut off suspension brackets ... are you talking chassis or RR axles? I guess the suspension brackets are for the coils yeah? Any idea what height I would have to have custom welded for the front axle ... know anybody I could contact who has done this already? By the way, is this all cool with rego sticking RR axles on?

Great idea's Ben ...

With standard (series) rims and 7.50s the wheels do not stick out of the guards so you should not even need flares. With wider rims and/or tyres you will need flares. If you want lockers and big wheels (33" and larger) down the rack then the salisbury may come in handy then, but there are lots of other options, and aftermarket 24 spline rear range rober axles and a rover locker will be fine for 33" or smaller.

Have a look on the ECR site, there were some series trucks with coiler axles - you can see how far they stick out.

You said LR and profit in the same sentence??? Are you planning on restoring it to concourse then shipping it to the US to sell??? otherwise forget making a profit on it...

Suffix A & B boxes have taller ratios on gears 1-3, and lower low range to compensate (suffix A and B have 2.88:1 low, suffic C and later have 2.5:1). You want a Suffix C or later main box, and a suffix B transfer. You could use the suffix A, but they have a smaller intermediate shaft, which is not as strong.

What do you mean "bolt the LR disc kit on the RR axles"??? The RR axles should come with discs?

I mean the axle suspension brackets, no need if you are putting them in a series. I don't know anyone in NSW who could do the work for you, maybe DAS/GURU??? Or plenty of places like overkill probably. You can cut off the old brackets, and it shouldn't cost much to get 4 spring pads welded on. I think the front spring pads need to be about 10-15mm thicker. In theory the axle swap/brake mods should be engineered and for this the welding should usually be performed by a certified welder. Maybe a 4x4 shop can do the welding and certification for you in one go. But I know plenty of people who have done similar conversions and the roadworthy place hasn't noticed - but I didn't say that...

EDIT - The lightweight was one I was thinking of - I also saw a 109 with RR axles front and rear in italy.

You could also set up the front pinion angle for extended shackles - it would give you back all the height you lose with the thicker spring pads, and possibly help with track rod clearance.

Hey Ben,

Yeah, the RR axles will ofcourse have the discs on them ... I got myself caught up thinking of the Sals again! I don't know the ECR site by the way do you have a link? I was planning to swap my 110 rims with Richard for Series 1 Disco rims running 285's - this wouldn't require extended guards would it?

I'm not looking to sell the 109 ex Military for profit, no - I didn't actually say LR and profit in the same sentence ... just that I may sell it on later - though I would make a profti on it for what I paid for it if I get it running ... I may sell it but haven't decided for sure. My point was only that I'd hang onto the Sals if I did and stick the standard LWB rear back on before I did.

Hmmm re the Gearboxes ... so I couldn't just run my B suffix box standard then? If things and requirements keep blowing out to more and more fiddling and changes it's back to the KISS method and just bung the old Sals on and leave it that. It would be more pain finding a later gearbox in good nick and then another tranny case and then I'm stuck with two unused gearboxes etc etc etc ...

I mean the axle suspension brackets, no need if you are putting them in a series

You mean I wouldn't have to move the suspension brackets ( you mean spring pads here or spring hangers? ) on the RR axles if I'm sticking them under my 88? Only have to raise the front pad ... I would talk to Das, I think he works for Overkill now or something perhaps ... hmmm. What would be the way to go though with the brake set up ... in terms of replacing with Servo etc ... what system would I need then?

It's a bit more complex than the Sals swap methinks.

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/87.html

Here is an 88" on RR axles and stock rims (and coils but that doesn't matter).


You may need flares with disco rims and 285s but not 100% sure.

What I mean is that you should cut off the coil mount, shock absorber mount, and radius/trailing arm brackets from the RR axles as you don't need them. Then weld on the spring pads and shock mount brackets from a series axle (or custom fabricated brackets).

You could try using your standard box, but I think the ratios would be too high - they would probably be too high with a HRTC as well. With the taller 1st in the suffix A/B box, you may have trouble doing hill starts in high range.

The ratios are here: http://users.mrbean.net.au/~rover/boxratios.htm

With a suffix A or B box you will only have:
32.5:1 low range with HRTC
30.6:1 low with 3.54 diffs

With a suffix C or later box you will have:
39:1 with HRTC
37:1 with 3.54 diffs.

It may not sound like much, but it makes a difference. Unless your 88 is very light and you have heaps of low-down torque, you will probably need a later model box whichever option you choose.

Thats a good look with the RR axles, you can barely notice the difference actually - thanks for the link. Hmmm re the gearboxes - so with my standard set-up the 88 was fine with my Suffix A mainbox etc but your saying that I'll need a C box or later whether I go with the RR axles or HRTC? Ok, so the most basic system for me to opt for right - now because I'm flat out just doing the rebuild without more running around - is just stick with the Salisbury for now and keep my gearbox standard.

I'll get the RR axles anyway and may look at the conversion later when I have more money and or time to spend on the concept. But for now it's going to take too much effort and steam out of my current momentum to get the 88 on the road again. So should I be doing LWB brakes all round for the Salisbury set up or ... ?

If you don't want to track down another box you might as well still go with the RR axles, that way you can have the choice of 3.54, 4.7 (which you have) or 4.11 ratios (if you can find them). Your 4.7 diffs will bolt straight into the RR casings. 4.11 ratios with your box and T-case would probably be about perfect. If your 88 is light and/or the engine has good low-end torque you may be fine with 3.54s.

Are you sure your boxes are good? Suffix A/B boxes are very long in the tooth now, I don't think I have ever seen a good one unless it had a recent rebuild. Even my suffix E box has had 3 or 4 rebuilds by now. They are also probably the weakest SII box. Also, someone may have fitted later model ratios at some stage.

If you go with the Sals and drum brakes you might as well fit LWB brakes if you have them, but the SWB brakes are surprisingly good.

I will have a recently rebuilt box for sale (mine) in a year or two if you are still looking then.

Ben,

More good food for thought there ... so I can remove the RR diffs from the casings and still have the disc brakes but with 4.7 ratio from the standard Rover diffs - ok. The engine as you know is a Holden 186 but I'm no mechanical expert mate - as you can tell - and this entire rebuild is the only time I've ever done anything on any vehicle - you would know better than me the torque characteristics of the 186 lump. I'm learning everything as I go right now so all my questions are literally vital to my understanding.

As regards to the Gearboxes here's the score ... the box thats in since I bought it is Suffix A and has a tooth missing in second - clack. clack, clack. The previous owner made no mention of any rebuilds on the boxes and was very open and candid ( great guy and gave me loads of spares ) and gave me the original main box and tranny casings ( suffix B ) which he said to put back in the Landy as there was nothing wrong with it. My plan was to strip it anyway before putting it back in but perhaps I should try and do a trade purchase through a Landy place like Kotara - swap my A suffix for a recond box in a later suffix or something?

How much would you want for your rebuilt box later on in the year mate and how much are reconmd boxes generally these days? Re brakes - so I could just swap SWB brakes onto the Salisbury - ok and have SWB brakes all round as per usual. If I fit the RR axles - what sort of system should be after for a Series to run the discs?

Simon - That 186 looks like it has the Monaro WW carb and manifold fitted. (bit hard to tell from the photos) What are the first few digits of the engine number ?? I personally like the Holden red six. Stock they are not an overly gutsy mtr, but with a few basic mods, have a lot of potential.
A good honest old school donk, reliable, cheap and easy to work on.


How far do you want to go with the mods on the 2A ?
Its real easy to get carried away (as you probably know )

G'day Si,

The first three numbers on the Holden are 742 and 743 on the intake manifold - I'm not too sure what the carb is as I'm no expert on recognizing the different types as yet. As to mods, I started out wanting to do fairly basic stuff, just basic bolstering and strengthening generally ...

# - Dual Brake Servo -
# - Gal chassis and bulkhead + cappings
# - Rear Salisbury
# - Truck cab + spare hardtop and soft top for changeovers.
# - New brake lines
# - Disc brakes when possible.
# - HRTC sometime later perhaps ...
# - Disco 1 rims on 285's
# - Bens custom leaf springs ...

I hadn't thought too much about the engine yet but am always open to suggestions ... but the mods above were all fairly standard. I would say that the RR axles are the biggest mod I have allowed myself to consider but I think the 88 with RR axles, disc brakes and a truck cab would look pretty sweet.

Simon - yes, you can fit your 4.7:1 centres to the Rangie axles.

I have always done my own box rebuilds, usually costs $200-500 for the parts, depending on what is needed (can cost a lot more). I heard that FWD in brisbane sells rebuilt boxes for about $2K with a warranty, but if I was going to spend that much I would fit a different, stronger box, like an R380.

If your boxes have never been rebuilt then they would still have the earliest style layshaft, which is prone to failure (especially behind a holden). But everything may be OK in a SWB, I don't know.

Every variation of series brakes will bolt straight on to the salisbury - you can even use the stub axles, hubs, brakes from your rover diff on the salisbury if you want to.

Hey Ben,

I spoke to Dickyjoe tonight re the Rangie axles and apparently they DON'T have the calipers on them! He had bought them with the idea of doing the same thing we have talked about but thought it impossible - subsequently by telling him it was he has decided he might just keep them now anyway - me and my big mouth! In any case I would have wanted to pick a pair of axles with the whole shooting match still attached anyway. In the meantime I may still look at the Salisbury conversion for now or try and beef up the rover diff centers with something else or just beef up the standard rover half shafts or something just to get things rolling.

Keeping the straight Rover diffs 4.7 - with my B or A suffix gearboxes and Holden 6 what would be the best deal for improving the diffs themselves besides the Sals 4.7 in the back? Say I leave the Sals off for a moment, what would be another option for the standard rover diffs ... how tricky is it to fit Rangie diff centres into the Rover diffs?

By the way - I was discussing this on another forum and quoted you in a few places in order to rebuttal a few basic comments - you may interested to read the thread as Mark Rumsey had some interesting things to say given your comments ... no big deal.

http://nhua.co.uk/smf_1-0-5/index.php?topic=3435.

Simon.

Mark Rumsey is a bit of a purist - doesn't like disc brakes and HD axles. He knows a lot about Series LR's but I suspect he has never actually done any off-roading.

If you want to try out 3.54 diffs you will need to keep your 10-spline halfshafts, at least for a while. If 3.54 diffs are OK then you could get a heavy duty rear end from Maxi-drive or jacmac - about $1200.

Factory HD (24 spline) axles are non existent in OZ. any you may as well buy jacmac or MD.

If you keep the rover rear the options are:

Cheapest:
keep the 10-spline cheese sticks and replace them when they break (i used to always carry 2 spare rear axles when I had a rover diff)

Middle:
Buy Maxi-Drive HY-TUFF versions of the 10-spline axles. These are the strongest 10-splines on the market, but people have still broken them. And they are about $700+ for two axles.

Most expensive (while still keeping rover parts):
Buy a Jacmac or MD heavy duty rear end. The only downside is you still have the rover ring and pinion, which won't matter if you have 3.54 diffs, but it you have 4.7s is still a weak spot.

Thanks Ben,

I'll stop asking questions now and just go assimilate your great info - always informative and instructive.

I'll likely go with the Salisbury and I was lucky to grab a Yank Four Wheeler mag today that had a strip down on a Dana 60 which will give me a bit of insight into the Sals as you have stated they are quite similar. I may still be able to get my hands on some Rangie axles with discs attached but for now I'll leave it here and get onto you next regarding the Custom leafs ... actually when mentioning this to Dickyjoe tonight he was saying he thought it might be a bit of a wobbly set up on the road and require a stabalizer or something ... I didn't get the impression that there would be THAT much body roll in our previous discussions though - am I right or wrong?

There are plenty of people selling off rangie axles cheap to upgrade to something stronger. Check the ads in here. Bubs in brisbane recently sold some very cheaply apparently.

After the spring mods I had more body roll but the vehicle seemed to handle better if anything. "Car" people are often a bit alarmed when they ride in it, but that can also be said of coil-sprung rovers. If you are up in Brisbane when I am back you are welcome to have a ride in the truck.

EDIT - yes I think you are right about Mark having a "God" complex. He needs to stop counting rivets get out into the real world and have a look around him.

I'm a Brizzie boy mate and have family on the Gold Coast - I can easily zip up anytime to say g'day, see family, and meet up all at once. Let me know when you are going to be in country again? - I might well be interested in a gearbox by then also depending on how things pan out.

Well ... just got offered some 84 Rangie axles disc to disc so looks like the Rangie axled conversion will be going ahead after all.

Sounds great Simon.

As well as cutting the old mounts off the axles and welding on spring pads, you also need to modify the front calipers to one circuit (and hose) per side.

Dave (GURU) is selling a 4.1:1 rear diff from a rover car. He only has one, but it might be worth picking up to try out - it would probably be the perfect ratio for you.

Ben,

I've no real world idea how Daves 4.1 Rover axle would work with my motor and gearbox tranny case setup ... if he has only the one I'm not sure how I could try it out - you have to have matching diff ratio's don't you? 4.1 will give slightly taller gearing I guess than 4.7 - is that a help to my engine or my drive train only - or both?

As to the fabricating for the Rangie diffs ... yeah it will be a job - I'll have to get an engineer to help me out - start asking around.

4.1 is about halfway between 3.54 and 4.7. It would probably be good for you if you want to do a decent speed on the highway. You can fit a 4.1 rear with a 4.7 or 3.54 ront to try it out - just don't engage 4x4.

Ohh ofcourse yeah ... keep it in HR 2x only ... I was wondering how it both front and rear 4.1 would effect my low range though. I guess it would raise the gearing of low range a little bit ... compromise.

Budeye wrote:Hey Ben,

I spoke to Dickyjoe tonight re the Rangie axles and apparently they DON'T have the calipers on them! He had bought them with the idea of doing the same thing we have talked about but thought it impossible - subsequently by telling him it was he has decided he might just keep them now anyway - me and my big mouth! In any case I would have wanted to pick a pair of axles with the whole shooting match still attached anyway. In the meantime I may still look at the Salisbury conversion for now or try and beef up the rover diff centers with something else or just beef up the standard rover half shafts or something just to get things rolling.

Keeping the straight Rover diffs 4.7 - with my B or A suffix gearboxes and Holden 6 what would be the best deal for improving the diffs themselves besides the Sals 4.7 in the back? Say I leave the Sals off for a moment, what would be another option for the standard rover diffs ... how tricky is it to fit Rangie diff centres into the Rover diffs?

By the way - I was discussing this on another forum and quoted you in a few places in order to rebuttal a few basic comments - you may interested to read the thread as Mark Rumsey had some interesting things to say given your comments ... no big deal.

http://nhua.co.uk/smf_1-0-5/index.php?topic=3435.

Simon.

gosh that made for painful reading...welcome to the uk

land of misinformation and burying of heads in sand. its a wonder the land rover was made in the first place, after all a car can drive, hell why bother with a car, a horse is ok.


with such experts heading up forums and clubs and setting out race entry rules, it becomes easy to see why the uk lags behind somewhat in more extreme off roading...'whoah check out my monster 235's man, surely no one can go bigger than that'

i wonder what on earth they thought of that 107"

anyhoo, major point of posting is regarding the ecr series coiler. i'm pretty sure the wheels fit in the arches so well is due to the use of special offset rims. i think ecr make/mod their own in order that the tyres fit under the arches, certainly from the picture, they do seem rather 'flat' between centre and the outer of the rim.