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Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 2:32 pm
by grimbo
NiXoN wrote:Wow so much energy into bagging something you havent got!
Yes I am a coily owner, and Yes i accept the limitations of said vehicle BUT if i was to buy any other brand swb 4by i would have spent 3 times as much for something that sinks in the 1st bit of mud it sees!!!!
Be constructive,

and alsways remember the wise words of confussions.......
........." reaf sprung sierras are just rike critorus.....evryy crunt got one..."

GO ZOOK
when have I bagged anything. Just because what I've said isn't agreebale to you or other coily owners doesn't make it baggging. I have driven and passengered in stock and modded coilys and I still say my leaf sprung Sierra rode better. That is fact on my experiences.

I have never said don't buy them I have just said that some of these black and white comments by a coily owner aren't the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 9:47 pm
by spamwell
Image

Image

ok that is 2 inch coils, longer shocks in the rear and standard front shocks, the front is being severely restricted by the shocks in the front being to short.

i think it is pretty good for $200 worth of springs.... considering i spend nearly $600 to buy the springs for my leafy and got worse flex in the rear and only slightly better in the front because it had longer shocks.

Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:05 pm
by HotAe92
grimbo wrote:yes I know I was just pointing out that the coily stuff isn't suitable for rockhoppers gears as originally stated
Your a dick, when did i say it is a straight bolt up. I never said that, but i did say it was possible to fit rockhoppers (with the exchange of the tranny cases).

If you still think, stock for stock, that leaf sprung zooks ride better than coilies, you are fooling yourself.

The coily is a great choice for those not looking to go hardcore, it looks better than the leafs, has a more refined interior, A/C in most. However, being only built for 2 years, there are minimal aftermarket products available.

Think what you wanna think.
Cheers
Jayden

Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:08 pm
by HotAe92
nicbeer wrote:dont worry alien. :lol:

i am smelling the $$$$ from here.

Nic
I am considering getting it done professionally, i dont have the space (garage), and the equipment available to do the work myself, at the time being.

But as you mentioned there is alot of $$$ involved, i know that LOL.

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:03 am
by nicbeer
HotAe92 wrote: I am considering getting it done professionally, i dont have the space (garage), and the equipment available to do the work myself, at the time being.

But as you mentioned there is alot of $$$ involved, i know that LOL.
If u can get the case then it is only hand tools and u got a garage to use. i have changed a xfer case and arms in my driveway a couple of times. Only need a BFG, socket set and a breaker bar i would say.

Professional is a special word for money grabbers. a lot of things on the zook can be done by yourself.

Nic

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:42 am
by alien
Professional is a special word for money grabbers.
...And bullshit artists =)

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:12 am
by lay80n
Half the reason the sierra's ride is so poor compared to larger cars is the short wheelbase. And no matter if its a coily or a leafy, it will still siffer cause of this.
Layto....

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 9:05 am
by grimbo
HotAe92 wrote:
grimbo wrote:yes I know I was just pointing out that the coily stuff isn't suitable for rockhoppers gears as originally stated
Your a dick, when did i say it is a straight bolt up. I never said that, but i did say it was possible to fit rockhoppers (with the exchange of the tranny cases).

If you still think, stock for stock, that leaf sprung zooks ride better than coilies, you are fooling yourself.

The coily is a great choice for those not looking to go hardcore, it looks better than the leafs, has a more refined interior, A/C in most. However, being only built for 2 years, there are minimal aftermarket products available.

Think what you wanna think.
Cheers
Jayden
Pull your head in idiot. Read what I've actually written I never said iyou saidt was a direct bolt in, I was saying that it needed modification to make it happen which you neglected to mention in your intial post.

I never doubted that a stock Coil sierra was a more pleasant ride than a Sierra but I reckon you can setup a leaf sprung Sierra to ride better than a Coily.

It is stupid responses like yours that make this forum a chore sometimes. Read what is actually written not what you think it might mean

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:48 pm
by HRZOOK
Flex on mine without too many mods

Mostly strengthening mods

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:17 pm
by A1
mmmmm sierra days ;)



My old coily :D

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:20 pm
by A1
:D








And um front dont flex so well ...particulary when the wheels dont touch the ground :armsup:

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:38 pm
by NiXoN
Thats a mint looking coily if ever there was one A1mav!!!
One question though, how much did you spend???!!!!!
I stumbled accross a fer pix of her a little while ago..me likes...

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:53 pm
by grimbo
that last one was Steve Azzopardis one. A lot of $$$ was spent on it for TT. He turned up but missed scrutineering a few years back. It was awesome, tubber rear wheel wells, notched frame for trailing arms tec , I believe it also had a 2.0 Vit engineand auto. No idea what ever happened with it

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:41 pm
by A1
mmm yeah thats steves Would be nice to know what ever happened to it alot of wrk and havent even seen it compete anywhere since thos pics although im sure he woulda been wheeling it somewhere



GOT FLEX ;)

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:43 pm
by A1
;)

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:46 pm
by A1
Mine only had 2,1/2" suspension ... 2" body lift ... 31" BFG's ...series 1 Rockhopper .... and Rear ARB Locka


I think I paid bout 12g for it when I first bought it then all the extras from memory sold it for bout 11500 ( I think was while ago ) wish I had kept it :roll:

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:32 pm
by lay80n
I went for a ride offroad in your old one Dan, not too bad at all. Though yeah, front end travel was average :D
Layto....

Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:29 pm
by Gwagensteve
Nixon, you might well be the one suffering from "confus(s)ions"

This is a 4WD board. People on this board typically are interested in 4WD related topics and how to improve their car for off road use.

As such, every element of the coil car makes this harder and more expensive than a leaf car.

Sure, being different is cool, so long as you are happy to accept that this might not be the best or cheapest path to take.

Coil sierras can make nice medium duty 4WD's running a 31 or so and moderate lift etc. I think eveyone is happy to accept though that to go beyond this results in an excercise in diminishing returns, which is not really the case for a leaf car when the initial expense is lower, parts are cheaper and more available, and you have to swap less stuff out of the car to make it work.

For those who think "we" are bashing coilers, bear in mind that many commenting on this thread have owned them and others (like me) have spent lots of time and gnashing of teeth trying to figure out how to make that front end work better without cutting it all off and putting a WT front diff in it.

Steve.

Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:09 am
by Gutless
Gwagensteve wrote: For those who think "we" are bashing coilers, bear in mind that many commenting on this thread have owned them and others (like me) have spent lots of time and gnashing of teeth trying to figure out how to make that front end work better without cutting it all off and putting a WT front diff in it.
Steve.
What would this achieve? Aren't the coilers wider? Ratios?

I know the housings are stronger on the WT's, but you would still have to fab up mounts for upper and lower links etc.

PS. My leafy is WAY better than my coily :finger:

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:05 pm
by spamwell
if you spent as long on the coily as you did on the leafy it would be better :P

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:35 pm
by Gutless
spamwell wrote:if you spent as long on the coily as you did on the leafy it would be better :P
Pfffft :finger:

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:45 pm
by Gwagensteve
Gutless,

my theory behind this is as follows:

The coil front diff is about 35mm wider than a WT, and has a reverse rotation diff (limited gear and locker availability)

Let's say you wanted to put an airlocker in a coiler, and maybe 5.12s.

IMHO the way to do it is to swap in a WT front end. This will put the tie rod in front of the diff which allows for a "normal" rotation sierra diff. Sure, you loose a little width, but then shafts are easy to come by, and things like double tuffs etc are off the shelf, along with calipers, gears wheelbearings, knuckles and everything else in the front end that is different about the F$&%%*# coiler.

To fit this, there are some complications, (such as panhard/tie rod/knuckle clearance) but the way I worked it out, both panhard mounts could be raised a bit and moved around, and the geometry would actually improve (less bumpsteer) which still seems to be a problem with coilers - the length of the drag link and the panhard rod are just too different. with some lift and slightly improved travel they still seem a bit squirrelly.

I spent a lot of time working all this out, , and even lined up a diff etc, but at the end of the day, the owner couldn't justify all the work to end up with a front locker and available parts but still have 6" of front travel and heavily mismatched roll stiffness etc, so then you had to factor in a 3 link, custom shocks, coil towers (or coilovers) etc and it was just all way too much work for a daily driver running 31's.

This is the same sort of conumdrum I am in with the G-wagen - a series 1 RH'd, 2" lifted, 2" BL coiler running a rear locker and 31's is a pretty handy off road car, but to gain much beyond that set up, you pretty much have to throw everything out. Which is why I don't like the coiler. Most of the sierra drivers I come across do want to go a bit further than what the compromises of he coiler will easily allow. To have to go down that path doesn't seem worth it. Sure if a coiler had EFI and PS, it might tip the balance the other way.

Steve.

(Ps just so people don't think I am mindlessly bashing coilers - I have thought about it a fair bit)

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:49 pm
by Gutless
Gwagensteve wrote:Gutless,

my theory behind this is as follows:

The coil front diff is about 35mm wider than a WT, and has a reverse rotation diff (limited gear and locker availability)

Let's say you wanted to put an airlocker in a coiler, and maybe 5.12s.

IMHO the way to do it is to swap in a WT front end. This will put the tie rod in front of the diff which allows for a "normal" rotation sierra diff. Sure, you loose a little width, but then shafts are easy to come by, and things like double tuffs etc are off the shelf, along with calipers, gears wheelbearings, knuckles and everything else in the front end that is different about the F$&%%*# coiler.

To fit this, there are some complications, (such as panhard/tie rod/knuckle clearance) but the way I worked it out, both panhard mounts could be raised a bit and moved around, and the geometry would actually improve (less bumpsteer) which still seems to be a problem with coilers - the length of the drag link and the panhard rod are just too different. with some lift and slightly improved travel they still seem a bit squirrelly.

I spent a lot of time working all this out, , and even lined up a diff etc, but at the end of the day, the owner couldn't justify all the work to end up with a front locker and available parts but still have 6" of front travel and heavily mismatched roll stiffness etc, so then you had to factor in a 3 link, custom shocks, coil towers (or coilovers) etc and it was just all way too much work for a daily driver running 31's.

This is the same sort of conumdrum I am in with the G-wagen - a series 1 RH'd, 2" lifted, 2" BL coiler running a rear locker and 31's is a pretty handy off road car, but to gain much beyond that set up, you pretty much have to throw everything out. Which is why I don't like the coiler. Most of the sierra drivers I come across do want to go a bit further than what the compromises of he coiler will easily allow. To have to go down that path doesn't seem worth it. Sure if a coiler had EFI and PS, it might tip the balance the other way.

Steve.

(Ps just so people don't think I am mindlessly bashing coilers - I have thought about it a fair bit)
i have considered these pionts before, and also came to the conclusion that there was a MASSIVE amount of work required to modify the coiler to get it to the piont where I would be happy.

having said this, necessity has forced my hand, as I have broken the lefthand side rear control arm mount clean off the housing at both pionts. The bracketry looks to be far too weak to re-attatch, and requires a complete re-design. For this reason, I will be stripping the diff housing completely, then laminating the axle tubes front and rear to give a solid platfrom for which I can weld new bracketry to.

I will be reconstructing the rear end as a triangulated 4 link, and removing the panhard rod. Fitment of an aftermarket rear sway bar will considered, but perhaps the most important thing is that I intend to run is no more than 2" of lift, but buy using a floating top-hat design with a secondary coil, I should be able to achieve atleast double the down travel from the rear suspension. A locking pin will be utilised to retain the top hat when flex is not required. This should also prevent body roll from worsening due to the extra spring extension.

If this setup works well on the rear, I will be doing this to the front end too, perhaps with a WT diff.

If you can understand what I am getting at, please express your opinion.

you can see the coil setup I wish to use on Maquarie 4x4's GU ute
Image

Also the feature vehicle in 4x4 monthly #57 sept 2003.

pete

Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:07 am
by Gwagensteve
Pete

At last some actual discussion on this thread instead of a whole lot of crap

:armsup:

I like your plan, but I wouldn't go crazy chasing droop in the rear end until the roll stiffnes was lowered and the travel increased at the front. I do understand that your hand has been forced though, so at least you are planning on getting one end right rather than a patch up job.

By going to to 4 link in the rear, the roll stiffness will go way lower than what you have in the back now, and if the swaybar you fitted was effective enough to balance the front and the rear, you would have very limited flex. I have figured that a rear swaybar would help a coiler a lot too, especially a hardtop. I guess what I am saying is that you will need a swaybar to get back to where you are now, but chasing much more droop will make the car even more unbalanced.

If I recall correctly, bumpstops on the rear of coilers are outside the chassis while the springs are a long way inside. To my mind, this is a very unhelpful way of building articulation. I think I would get the bumpstops inside the coil. As the coils are so far inboard, this will really let the compressed wheel force the drooped wheel down. This will have no effect on road behaviour either.

In relation to the top hat spring idea, I have seen it on a few cars in competition, and I am not sure that with the room, spring length, weight and leverage you have to work with with a coiler it would be worth the effort.

I also don't really like anything that causes a "flop" effect when the car is off camber- that top hat spring would have to create a small zone with a very very low spring rate, which would IMHO make the car feel pretty uncertain in some situations. I am a big fan of fully captured coils, as if the car is well balanced, the "lost" travel actually tends to mean improved drivability, with the car being able to walk over obstacles even if a wheel is in the air rather than flex into the holes and get stopped.

I don't tend to think that all the travel allowed by the links on a four link is helpful travel. The real measure of how much travel you can generate is spring design. I reckon the trick with the coiler is that the springs are so far inboard, that the vertical travel and articulation numbers are so different.

the SPUA RUF cars I have put together all have very sweet balance, with about 20% more front travel than rear. It must be possible with a coil car, once the front roll stiffness and travel goes up a bit. Most people who see the cars that I have put together comment that the back doesn't seem to flex very hard, but I think that really adds to the "planted" and predictable feel they have.

Steve.

Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 9:11 pm
by Gutless
Gwagensteve wrote:Pete

At last some actual discussion on this thread instead of a whole lot of crap

:armsup:

I like your plan, but I wouldn't go crazy chasing droop in the rear end until the roll stiffnes was lowered and the travel increased at the front. I do understand that your hand has been forced though, so at least you are planning on getting one end right rather than a patch up job.

By going to to 4 link in the rear, the roll stiffness will go way lower than what you have in the back now,

Are you saying it will be better or worse than it is now? The rear end body roll is shocking ATM ( I assume this is the same as roll stifness??), so I am looking to improve this.

and if the swaybar you fitted was effective enough to balance the front and the rear, you would have very limited flex.

My plan is to machine up some locators for the chassis mounted pionts on the sway bar, and a cable/lever activated release that can be operated from in the cab. This will allow me to connect/ disconnect at will, giving me the choice between flex, or limited flex.

I have figured that a rear swaybar would help a coiler a lot too, especially a hardtop. I guess what I am saying is that you will need a swaybar to get back to where you are now, but chasing much more droop will make the car even more unbalanced.

If I recall correctly, bumpstops on the rear of coilers are outside the chassis while the springs are a long way inside. To my mind, this is a very unhelpful way of building articulation. I think I would get the bumpstops inside the coil. As the coils are so far inboard, this will really let the compressed wheel force the drooped wheel down. This will have no effect on road behaviour either.

So if I manufacture New upper coil mounts that locate 1" higher than the factory ones, and retain the coil at both ends, aswell as fit an internal bumpstop in the coil, this should allow me to run 3" lifted coils, but only achieve a 2" lift. The result being better down travel ( but not too much), and compression that is atleast the same as it was before.

In relation to the top hat spring idea, I have seen it on a few cars in competition, and I am not sure that with the room, spring length, weight and leverage you have to work with with a coiler it would be worth the effort.

I also don't really like anything that causes a "flop" effect when the car is off camber- that top hat spring would have to create a small zone with a very very low spring rate, which would IMHO make the car feel pretty uncertain in some situations.


I was thinking of running the tophat coils at a higher rate than the main coils. I believe this would force the main coils to travell first before comressing the tophat coils. Not sure if this is the case or not tho.


I am a big fan of fully captured coils, as if the car is well balanced, the "lost" travel actually tends to mean improved drivability, with the car being able to walk over obstacles even if a wheel is in the air rather than flex into the holes and get stopped.

lockers??

I don't tend to think that all the travel allowed by the links on a four link is helpful travel.

can you explain this better? I was under the belief that the marked reduction in binding within the bushed on a 4 link, compared to the double bushed lower links was a major factor in increasing travel.

The real measure of how much travel you can generate is spring design. I reckon the trick with the coiler is that the springs are so far inboard, that the vertical travel and articulation numbers are so different.

Spring rates will be a consideration for me, but I do intend to run the springs at a similar rate front to rear; and probably not to differemt to the factory rates either.

the SPUA RUF cars I have put together all have very sweet balance, with about 20% more front travel than rear. It must be possible with a coil car, once the front roll stiffness and travel goes up a bit. Most people who see the cars that I have put together comment that the back doesn't seem to flex very hard, but I think that really adds to the "planted" and predictable feel they have.

I have done 3 sierras with SPUA RUF and found sililar results. Increased balance, better flex, and a greater feeling of stability. I would like to achieve similar with the coiler too.

Have you any suggerstions as far as front end suspension desigh goes? Triangulated 4 link, or 5 link, keeping the panhard??


Steve.
Thanks for your advise so far.

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:15 am
by muppet_man67
this thread is getting :cool: :cool:

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:13 pm
by Gutless
muppet_man67 wrote:this thread is getting :cool: :cool:
It'll get more :cool: :cool: in 2 weeks time when I start doing all this crap instead of just dribbling on about it :D

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:51 pm
by Gwagensteve
Here goes.. I'll try and keep to the topic, sorry if I start rambling.

Roll stiffness (along with a higher COG in the back than in the front) is why the rear rolls more than the front atm.

If you design an effective link design, the roll stiffness will drop even more, as there will be no bushing bind fighting the articulation.

Imagine a single coil spring in the centre of the rear axle. If there was no bind in the link design, this would have no roll stiffness. If you drew a line from the tyres contact patch to the COG of the rear of the car, and inclined your springs along that line, your roll stiffness would be as high as possible for that spring rate (assuming no bushing bind)

With the rear of the coiler, there is a funny situation where the springs are well inboard (lowering the roll stiffness) but the design re introduces (some) roll stiffness by fighting articulation.

The problem is that the springs are way outboard on the front of a coiler, and the COG is lower in the front than in the rear. Add the stock front swaybar and the front and back are hopelessly mismatched.

This does not really present itself as a problem how suzuki design the car, for 29's, no lockers, no lift etc, with no real intention of hard off road use.

I think you are on the right track with a tunable swaybar, but I think once you get it to feel right on the road, you won't disconnect it off road. US experience indicates that if you get swaybar tuning right, they are not an impediment to articulation. The idea will be to get to balanced roll stiffness front to rear, or slightly lower roll stiffness in the front than the rear.

(here I go with a ramble) I believe that if a car has poor on road behavour, it will have bad offroad behaviour too. Everything my G does badly on road it does badly off road too. Think about cornering g's. A 4wd driven swiftly might build .3g lateral force. If my dodgy assumptions are right, that equals about 27odd degrees of side angle. If your car is wobbly or behaves badly on a fast corner on road, then it will feel bad whan placed under the same forces off road, which is not hard.

You spring ideas depend a bit on spring design and where you bumpstop the car. Not all 3" lift springs are 3" longer free length. This is because they have a higher rate too. some "lift" springs are actually shorter than stock springs because the lift is done with higher rate only.

Theoretically, if you are happy with the stock rear spring rate, you could move the top mount down 2", fit new internal bumpstops that are also 2" longer, have "stock" vertical travel and pick up heaps of articulation over what you have now.

The sierra problem is getting along enough spring in there with a low enough rate. sierra rear coils are quite small diameter, I know that you can buy coilover springs at very low rates at up to 14" free length. These are ground flush top and bottom and might be of some use.

With heavily inboard springs like a coiler, you really need to treat articulation and travel separately. You only need enough travel for the speed that you want to move at, but by shock location and bumpstopping, you will be able to get very high articulation.

Re the top hat coils, I don't think they will work usefully at all if the top hat coil has a higher rate than the road spring. a sierra will not have enough tyre, wheel and axle weight to compress them, and ther won't be enough leverage to make it much use.

depending on how you set up the in-coil bumpstops, it might be possible to use a urethane sleeve from a coil over and a tender spring between the top coil mount and the road spring. This is a good way to reduce you effectove spring rate too, as the rate of the road spring and the rate of the tender spring work to negate each other. I think this would be a better solution than the top hat coil idea on a car without 44's, rockwells etc to pull them down.

Lockers: Yeah, IMHO without lockers, you can never get a car far enough into an obstacle, or build enough traction, to generate really bad suspension behavior. My G could never get into a big enough angle without the lockers on to make it misbehave. a rear locker only is almost worse, as the front cant pull the nose down, so the rear just digs in and pushes the nose higher.

It (might) be possible to set up the links on a 4 link to allow, say, 75 degress of travel, but your car would roll with the tyres still on the ground. To allow this, though, the springs would have to be about 7 ft long and the shocks 12 foot long :lol: I don't think we will see airshocks over about 16" of shaft travel on comp cars, and bear in mind that these cars tend to run the airshocks very close to the wheels and very close to the cars roll centre. Therefore, my idea is that the advantage of a four link is the very precise control of geometry (antisquat, roll steer, caster/pinion angle) and the ability to ditch a panhard rod, also, the ability to remove bind from the effect of calculating spring and shock rates.

Double bushed radius arms are terrible for articulation, and the more you artiulcate them the higher their roll stiffness goes. I think that with a coil sierra as an example, shock and coil lengths acutually depend on this a bit to give "acceptable" road ride and control body roll.

If you want to run stock spring rates, I like the idea of getting special springs wound. Thinking out loud, maybe shoot for about 4" over stock length and set the coils 2" higher than stock in the chassis for your 2" of lift, with stock bumpstop clearances (? just an idea) I think you would find that most coil lift springs would be 20-30% stiffer than stock. not helpful for travel.

I don't think you will have the same rates front to rear. with exactly the same suspension suspension design front and rear in the G, and only lightly laden, I run 146 lb/inch in the front and 230lb/inch in the rear and the rear is too soft. I would get stock coils "rated" by a suspension shop that does race car stuff and go from there. I think you might want to go up about 10% to help prevent bottoming when you need to use a bit of momentum without having to go too stiff with the shocks.

for the front, you would want to keep the panhard, or the bumpsteer will get out of hand. My plan for Paul (club members) car was to run an extra link on top of the axle on the passenger side (minor exhaust mods) this would remove all bushing bind ( with new lower links, one bush at each end only) and allow caster to be easily adjusted. This will drop the roll stiffness and allow the front to be worked out as per the rear- without the bind. Josh Browne who used to work for GT suspension in Melbourne built the "sidewinder" 80 series with this set up in about 1994. This car was enormously impressive- about 5 feet of articulation was unheard of in the day, and amazing balance.

I actually think that this mod alone would transform a coiler, without touching the rear. ( I know you have to do your rear due to breakage) Mostly because of its effect on balance.

Balance is my pet love ;)

Sorry for the ramble, I hope this gives you some stuff to ponder.

Steve.

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:15 pm
by HotAe92
whoa, that is a nice little write up there Gwangen, put things in a different perspective than i saw them.

The only question i have is what companies manufacture a off-the-shelf spring lift for coilies?

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:10 pm
by Gutless
HotAe92 wrote:whoa, that is a nice little write up there Gwangen, put things in a different perspective than i saw them.

The only question i have is what companies manufacture a off-the-shelf spring lift for coilies?
None that are worth buying :?

Steve:

I will pop the coils out next week and have them checked for rate etc. I was thinkng of asking for a new static height that is 4" longer than stock and shifting the mount up, as you said, but then I had a look at the location of the bumpstops, and considered a slightly longer coil that is closer to a coilover coil in overall diameter; mounted on the outside of the chassis where the current bump stop is. This may require a little more offset on the wheels to clear the upper coil mount, but it would give me much needed space for hocks etc on the inside of the chassis. It may also increase the roll stiffness by moving the pivot piont outboard.

between this, 4link, and aftermarket swaybar, I believe the rear end will behave alot better.

Perhaps after doing the rear suspension, i could use it as a bearing for modifying the front end.......