Outer Limits 4x4 Board

DiscoDino wrote:Thanks guys, that was a nice explanation.

Sam, your points are well understood, and it seems that for tougness, JMN is the way to go.

The 4.3 RC kit from MD is a DEFINITE thing I'll be getting, so that is a constant.

Another variable in my decision making is abundance of spare parts and ease of trail fixing (I live in Lebanon...MD/JMC is NOT round the corner unfortunately). If you are telling me that the weak link with the MD is the AEU2522 CV, then that is actually GREAT, as the Lebanese Military use them, and there are a LOT of them VERY VERY cheap (~55USD), and changing one is not THAT hard. However, if you are telling me that each time one blows it takes the inner axle with it, that is a bad thing, but at the price these are at, its not THAT bad, and I'll order a spare set from MD.

The rear axles of the MD are also interchangeable with the stock ones (same size), and a spare set is not that expensive.

On a whole, I do understand that JMC is the STRONGER option, however, Toyota parts a extremely RARE in Lebanon, so MD "may" be the better option for me, especially that I already have both ARBs RD56s (unless I can also reuse them with JMC?)

To tell you the truth, I have a VERY bad vibe about JMC simply becuause they have never replied to my emails (ok, maybe once), and they don't seem to be too friendly, whereas Mal/Paula and I have corresponded very frequently, and he even called me up once to ask me whether or not we are good to go (I was still debating on the rear Salisbury swap...). THAT, my friends, is a key reason to go for MD and not JMC...unfortunately...

Thanks again...Sam, any input on the above would be VERY helpful.

What you are saying makes perfect sence. Having spare parts plays a very big roll (which is why I own a second complete set of mog axles - $$$$)

The only place the Maxi setup is significantly weaker than the Jac mac setup is in the crown wheel and pinion. I think the 8in toy is just that much better than the rover 8.5in because of its hypoid design. The axles are close either way and the longfielded toy CV will be better than the 110 ones. Now the dimensions of the toy CVs and the 110CV are identical in all the key areas so the 110 CV should be able to be made as strong by longfield if you wanted to go that way in the future(I think that one US guy has done this??)

The only thing Im not so sure on is the strength of the 4.1 diff gears. Have heard of a few breaking over here in competitions. If you get the 4.1 gears then you would really want to get a spare gear set (and Ive heard maxi only sells them in lots of two??) Its very hard to tell if the 4.1s are stronger than the stock 3.54s. Do you really need them with the 4.3 transfer gears??

Sam

DiscoDino,

Just thinking about it you probably need the 4.1 diff gears for the on road stuff and even with the 4.3s and the stock 3.54 diffs the low range would be a bit marginal.

I think that your plan is a good one.

And yep - Mal and Paula are very, very nice people and they always go the extra mile to look after their customers. Never heard a bad story about them (almost a pun there)

And Jeff at Jac Mac - well he's just different

Sam

I might take Sam to task over the diameter of the Maxi axles, at least the ones I have.
They were definately machined to match the minor spline diameter.
Here's a quote from my Maxi catalogue;

"Axles are machined all over and waisted full length to achieve a uniform polar section modulus comparable to the smallest spline. This ensures the axle can flex like a torsion bar to accomodate shock loads."

One place where they can be improved is in the generation of the splines. The maxi splines are machined (cut) into the bar stock, which removes material, cuts across the grain structure of the material and can generate stress raisers.
If the splines were rolled (like OE ones) it would definately increase the strength and fatigue life in this area as no material is removed, and the grain structure of the metal is actually enhanced at the point of highest load.

Rick.

rick130 wrote:I might take Sam to task over the diameter of the Maxi axles, at least the ones I have.
They were definately machined to match the minor spline diameter.
Here's a quote from my Maxi catalogue;

"Axles are machined all over and waisted full length to achieve a uniform polar section modulus comparable to the smallest spline. This ensures the axle can flex like a torsion bar to accomodate shock loads."

One place where they can be improved is in the generation of the splines. The maxi splines are machined (cut) into the bar stock, which removes material, cuts across the grain structure of the material and can generate stress raisers.
If the splines were rolled (like OE ones) it would definately increase the strength and fatigue life in this area as no material is removed, and the grain structure of the metal is actually enhanced at the point of highest load.

Rick.

I did not know that - every maxi axle I have seen looks like the one posted in the first pic with the dia the some as the major spline diameter. I guess tha last maxi axe I looked at would have been made at least a few years ago (I can remember the way he cuts the splines always looks as if they are twisted on the finishing part of the spline but it is only the way the cutter leaves the material on spline - just like it in the pic - its notched back one way if that makes sence??? )

Anyway from the quote in the catalogue it looke like Maxi is on the right track with machining the axle down to the minor dia of the spline in the same way that jac mac does.

And given that the Maxi 24 spline axle is probably a better axle than the 24 spline Jac Mac axle.

Sam

Either way, the Maxi quote sort of validates the crap I was spinning before about the benefits of having a flexible axle -

Axles are machined all over and waisted full length to achieve a uniform polar section modulus comparable to the smallest spline. This ensures the axle can flex like a torsion bar to accomodate shock loads

although in a much smaller sentence with much bigger words

Sam

So I guess for MY application, MD is it...living 1/2 way around the world, I can say that the breakdown for the decision is the following:

Reputation 20%
Price 5%
Service 50%
Ease of replacement 25%

I'm drafting a file that I'll share with you guys in a bit to decide on the rations to be used...

Thanks again (Sam, great insights)

I'm just about to put Jac Mac lockers into the Discovery (TD5). The options are the Toyota 30/31? spline sides or the 21 spline Rover kit. My thoughts are to use the rover style axles (manufactured by Jac Mac) so it makes life easy if things go badly. Is there any advantages of running the Toy spec axle ends (assuming they still need to come down to Rover at the wheels), and assuming they are stronger, how much stronger and is this academic even if the TD5 was chipped?

the toy 30 spline will be stronger...
jac mac make the 30 spline flanges to suit for the "wheel" end...
are you going front and rear

Ta Landy Man.

I wasn't sure if he did the 30spline for the Discovery 2 because they don't have the axle hub things like every other Rover. Should get of my ass and ask him!

I'm going front and rear, the rear using the Toy setup and Surf 4.1's and the front maintaining a Rover setup but with a JM locker

Just took a look at the Maxi's that will go into the rear of the P38 - necked down on the inside, non-floater so the outside is different with a flange and everything. Interestingly enough no spline for the dog clutch? Doesn't matter, since I will use TrueTrac, but I though all MDE axles were ready for lockers?

Question for Sam - my Defender 110 is all Maxi on 36" Michelins, but still 3.54. OK sometimes, but I have decided I want 4.11's. Does Mal do these himself, or does he buy them from somewhere? Are the 4.11's of better material and as strong as the stock 3.54's?

Btw, I have trashed one AUE2522 doing a stupid thing, but the inner axle didn't suffer.

Interestingly enough no spline for the dog clutch? Doesn't matter, since I will use TrueTrac, but I though all MDE axles were ready for lockers?

a couple of sets of 'X' Sals ones I bought a few years back aren't splined for the locker either.

Rick.

My MD 28spl axles are necked down too, first set was made around 94-95 so he's been doing it for a while I think.
Jac Mac is able to install toy 8" gears onto MD (or rover) hemispheres in toy or JM third member housings, at least he told me he could anyway...couldn't quote me a price but was helpful enough to give me the relevant measurements and tell me to do it myself....
If you want some entertainment, ask JM what he thinks of ARB lockers..

Cheers
Daryl

wilsby wrote:Just took a look at the Maxi's that will go into the rear of the P38 - necked down on the inside, non-floater so the outside is different with a flange and everything. Interestingly enough no spline for the dog clutch? Doesn't matter, since I will use TrueTrac, but I though all MDE axles were ready for lockers?

Question for Sam - my Defender 110 is all Maxi on 36" Michelins, but still 3.54. OK sometimes, but I have decided I want 4.11's. Does Mal do these himself, or does he buy them from somewhere? Are the 4.11's of better material and as strong as the stock 3.54's?

Btw, I have trashed one AUE2522 doing a stupid thing, but the inner axle didn't suffer.

wilsby, i think mal's 4.1's are made in conjunction with great basin rovers and are made in spain? the fronts are reverse cut and they are made from better material. as far as being as strong as the stock 3.54's, i don't know, some one would have to do the figures. now a question for everyone. are the front c&p (stock 3.54's) breaking because they are not reverse cut, under more wear on the wrong edge of the tooth and then weaker when they come under that final load. the straw that broke the camels back?

ps. all mal's axles are now waisted, i don't know when he started

cheers,serg

The 4.1's from MD do come from OS. Apparently there is a ship load on the way.

I'm picking up some Rover 4.1's from Davis Performance Landys, which are manufactured by Dana. The fronts are also cut differently (I think reverse) apparently to quieten them down a bit.

Slunnie wrote:The 4.1's from MD do come from OS. Apparently there is a ship load on the way.

I'm picking up some Rover 4.1's from Davis Performance Landys, which are manufactured by Dana. The fronts are also cut differently (I think reverse) apparently to quieten them down a bit.

Dana wouldn't make Land Rover R&P's. The reverse cut R&P is to try and make it stronger in the forward direction not quieter.

OS? Can I source the C&P MDE uses here in Europe?

wilsby wrote:OS? Can I source the C&P MDE uses here in Europe?

I'm pretty sure these are the same as sold by GBR (Great Basin Rovers), in the US. I think you can only buy them from GBR, Maxi-Drive, or a distributor.

OK, the European distributor doesn't stock them, so I may go directly to Mal.

i agree with Sam's view that Jamacs difflock is probably the best design on the market, but long term spares backup is always a concern with Jeff.
A couple of years ago I reworked a new Jacmac Hilux airlocker for a customer. I remachined all bearing diameters and crownwheel flange to fit a Rangey diff . the customer had Maxidrive 24 spline rear axles plus another set for spares, so we ordered a set of side gears for the locker in 24 spline , but were informed that they are no longer available because they changed the spline count on the inner and outer locking ring. so the customer then had to fork out for a set of jamacs 30 spline axles.
I ran into a mate a few weeks back who was just returning home from ARB after having an air locker fitted to the front of his Landy 101. I asked him why he did not fit the Jacmac airlocker that he purchased about 6months ago. He said that they had altered the design again and now his one was obsolete, so he had concerns about spares in the future.
incidentlly, ARB did a lousy installation job on his airlocker. I had a look at his old carrier, there were deep gouges in it caused by a very loose pinion
shaft. ARB never bothered to address this problem and it was still loose when I crawled under to check it, so the backlash setting would have been wrong anyway. I told him to go back and have it sorted. a couple of day later I saw him again, slipped under his truck, felt the pinion shaft and it was much too tight. All ARB had done was overtighten the pinion nut without renewing or shimming the preload spacer. And they didn't bother to remove the cover plate to check crownwheel backlash.
Bill.

ISUZUROVER wrote:

Slunnie wrote:The 4.1's from MD do come from OS. Apparently there is a ship load on the way.

I'm picking up some Rover 4.1's from Davis Performance Landys, which are manufactured by Dana. The fronts are also cut differently (I think reverse) apparently to quieten them down a bit.

Dana wouldn't make Land Rover R&P's. The reverse cut R&P is to try and make it stronger in the forward direction not quieter.

I've just checked this with them. Definately manufactured by Dana in the US.

ARB in a 101?? What spline side gear did he use, 30 or 35, or do they now make 101 side gears?? Did he get the shafts from JM.

A few of the 101 guys got together and got Harhman Bros in Melbourne, who make gears for ARB to make a few sets of side gears with the 101 21 spline pattern. Modman also has a couple of sets for his 101 axle assemblies. Bill.

damm straight, i only hoard the good stuff
bill, that front sals is hhheeeaaavvvyyy.
no wonder you had trouble trying to put the landy on its side with duel wheels.
david

derangedrover wrote:If you want some entertainment, ask JM what he thinks of ARB lockers..

You'll have to laugh at this. Despite the reports of customer service that I'd heard I thought I was pretty much bullet proof, hell I teach kids all day. I spoke to Jeff today ready to hand over the credit card to go full JM hypoid and axles on the rear, case and all, and JM rover lockers on the front. He then got agitated when I asked him for a time frame (a few weeks currently), and then lost it when I asked for a time frame without the hypoid case as I was thinking I'll just use the hilux case. Dammit, he convinced me within 1min 30secs of picking up the phone to run ARBs! I think he likes ARB's after all!

Slunnie wrote:

derangedrover wrote:If you want some entertainment, ask JM what he thinks of ARB lockers..

You'll have to laugh at this. Despite the reports of customer service that I'd heard I thought I was pretty much bullet proof, hell I teach kids all day. I spoke to Jeff today ready to hand over the credit card to go full JM hypoid and axles on the rear, case and all, and JM rover lockers on the front. He then got agitated when I asked him for a time frame (a few weeks currently), and then lost it when I asked for a time frame without the hypoid case as I was thinking I'll just use the hilux case. Dammit, he convinced me within 1min 30secs of picking up the phone to run ARBs! I think he likes ARB's after all!

Why is it every time I hear stories about JM's customer service I have images of the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld.

No diff for you.......... 1 YEAR!!!! :shock:

The funny thing is that there is somebody that works in there (Matt I think) that was really easy to speak to and full of really good info.

Best option is to go into his workshop.

wave cash under his nose then all is ok.

usually 2 weeks turn around, but most axles flanges, axles ect are ex stock.

only problem is he is the best option around.

Michael.

HSV Rangie wrote:Best option is to go into his workshop.

wave cash under his nose then all is ok.

usually 2 weeks turn around, but most axles flanges, axles ect are ex stock.

only problem is he is the best option around.

Michael.

Bit of a problem if Slunnie is in Sydney

found the same thing HSV....
when I ordered my stuff for the toy conversion... info was very slow coming from him... HOWEVER... when I went in to pick the stuff up and had nearly $2000 cash in my hand... he could not have been any more helpful... was even happy to "shoot the breeze" about the trucks he had there...
It really is a pity his "bedside manners" are poor 'cause he has a lot of info stuck in his head...
Oh well... I am very happy with the product he makes so can't complain...
Just fax your order in and wait for his phone call

Had a look at my Maxi-Drive I now have fitted to Aquarangie (swapeed it for the ARB air locker, a much better optiuon after three 10 spline axle breakages) and it looks just like Tuff RR's one in the pic. I have never pulled it out even when it was in my old 84 Rangie.

Regarding Jac Mac, never dealt with him, but two things piss me off in this world more than anything is bad customer service and rudeness. it's not a hard thing to be polite and helpful.

But it's nice to go off-road and have some sort of confidence that you won't come back home with busted axles!!!

Trav