Outer Limits 4x4 Board

chimpboy
That sounds more like the case
Hoppy

RockyF70 wrote:

Beastmavster wrote:

RockyF70 wrote:What if you don't have a tyreplacecard??? I cant find mine anywhere - Checked under bonnet, door trims, glovebox.... where can it be?

Then you have an illegal vehicle that is not allowed to be driven on Australian roads, since it does not conform with the ADR that specifies you must have it fitted.


Sorry, your rig is now spare parts use only..

Vehicles that came from the factory without one are ok... so i'm hoping mine did. One law they didn't make retrospective.

Not if yours is made any time since the early 1970s........... Even early 70's cars mostly had them.

Chimpboy, I'm not happy as this mucks up me. I have doubts over the retroactive aspects discussed and tend to agree with your thoughts on chasing down some of the dodgier things that may be out there. Still the new regs are not particularly friendly.

Beastmavster wrote:

RockyF70 wrote:

Beastmavster wrote:

RockyF70 wrote:What if you don't have a tyreplacecard??? I cant find mine anywhere - Checked under bonnet, door trims, glovebox.... where can it be?

Then you have an illegal vehicle that is not allowed to be driven on Australian roads, since it does not conform with the ADR that specifies you must have it fitted.


Sorry, your rig is now spare parts use only..

Vehicles that came from the factory without one are ok... so i'm hoping mine did. One law they didn't make retrospective.

Not if yours is made any time since the early 1970s........... Even early 70's cars mostly had them.

oh well, my crapper doesn't and its from 84. And have looked over another rocky on sunday couldn't find one on it either . Hatsu prolly forgot to put it on, wouldn't suprise me

Hoppy11 wrote:And for that matter, every old Diesel powered car in Australia would fail current emission laws, and older petrol cars would need to only run on gas to pass aswell, should they be deregistered too!!!!
Hoppy

Your point is irrelevant.


The state's transport department decides which vehicles can and can't run on the road. They can change that ruling at any time, and too bad for anyone who bought the wrong thing.


Laws change - what was once legal is now illegal. It's now illegal to burn your brother in law's wife on his funeral pyre, to marry a 12 year old girl, to beat your wife into submission for backchatting you, to keep slaves, and to stone people who had different religion to you to death.

I dont recall any compensation for any of those law changes.

Dont expect compensation and dont bleat. We all knew this was coming...its been in planning since about 1998-1999 when the first NCOP came out.

Considering the current environment over the early 2000's it could have been so much worse that it isnt funny....

this is a load of sh*t surly...

Ok take emissions for example, remember the ford courier's 4cyl petrol. last year they complied to emission standards, this year they dont. so as a result you can no longer purchase the vehicle in 4cyl petrol, the 4cyl petrol is engineered to comply with old emission laws and now does not comply. So in your thinking they along with all previously sold vehicles that dont meet the EOBD# standard that we use today will be deregestered. And in the next 3 years when the higher standard of EOBD based emission regs come in, every previously sold vehicle not meeting the standards will also be fubar.

i would have thought if your vehicle is certified then its cirtified end of story. otherwise it would become a joke, i mean if you go into safety standars and emmission standars probably close to 95% of vehicles produced in asia and australia before 2002 wouldn't pass in the best condition slightly less if its made in europe. Then close if not all vehicles produced before 1995 will be scraped. just doesnt make scence to me.

But if your talking about loop holes to bring down the amout of hight performance vehicles off the road. which i will suspect would be targeted at rice rockets and V8's then thats just a hard line push from the government authority in charge and will just push people doing such mods not to report and have them signed off. wich is probably more unsafe.

it doesnt matter if you have vin plates or build plates or tyre placards missing you just call the licencing centre and they check all th detail on their computer make sure its not stolen or parts stolen. then they send you out a letter stating that your vehicle doesnt have an identification plate of some sort, so in the case of trying to sell or if the coppers pick you up you can just produce a letter.

i only know because my vehicle is missing the build identification plate and i had it checked so i knew i didnt get a rebirthed car or something dodgy along those lines. the idea is you keep the letter in the glove box. but who knows where mine has gone, last thing i want in the glovebox is another loose piece of paper

I've got tomorrow off. I'm going to go to Vicroads and find out for sure.

Enough of this conjecture.............

(Might have to park a few streets away )

chimpboy wrote:I think you will find that they are seeking out vehicles that should not have been engineered under the laws at the time, because they were not actually compliant with the rules at the time. Not just any vehicle that was properly engineered but does not comply with new rules.

It is very rare for Australian governments to enact retrospective legislation. You would be hard-pressed to find many examples in our laws, especially in relation to ordinary private citizens. No offence to anyone, but I would want a lot more than a cut-and-paste from some other forum to believe that this is anything more than a check up on some engineers who were too lenient.

If a vehicle was properly engineered, that would remain valid unless there was some very unusual legislation. It's just the same as how an older car can get by without rear seat belts etc if that was legal when it was produced.

Bruce's email at the top sounds almost ambiguous as to whether it is talking about retrospective legislation or not. I would like to hear something more formal before I believe that's what's going on.

Some of you guys seem a bit too happy about how this is going to muck up other people...

Jason

Bruce's copy and paste is short on facts and accuracy, no question. In itself it's not consistant with the final working version of the DOTARS "Code of Practice", so that in itself is unusual.

However, it's not like it's an information bulletin form VicRoads we've got in front of us now is it.


Retrospective laws do exist in australia, but it is rare for them to be introduced. Generally there is a requirement of an ongoing risk to life and limb - whcih I guess was the reason behind semiautos and could be the reason in this case.........


Normally this means that you can't normally be punished for it, because at the time what you did was legal.





There are exceptions to the rule. The banning of semiautomatic rifles is a great one to illustrate this, but there are heaps of others - bus seatbelts and war criminals spring to mind straight up.


It was legal to own a semiautomaic rifle, and now it's not. The semiautomatic rifle hasnt changed and neither has the owner.

The same rule would apply with the word "semiautomatic rifle" removed and the words "high lift 4wd" substituted.

Why these "rights" can be retrospectively removed is the ownership and use itself is now illegal. It's not like there is a single event where a crime was committed.




The issue here is that you're continuing to act in a from which is no longer legal, which of course you may be able to be done for. (that is driving your dangerous heathen lifted 4wd on the nice safe victorian roads).




It makes for an interesting philosophical argument about whether or not continuously speeding at 30kph is one long offence or repeated offenses...... but that's irrelevant to this thread.


Any documented facts from vicroads would be appreciated.

Beastmavster wrote:Laws change - what was once legal is now illegal. It's now illegal to stone people who had different religion to you to death....

Point taken, but in some countries you can still stone people to death, sorry to get off the topic
Hoppy

DAMKIA wrote:I've got tomorrow off. I'm going to go to Vicroads and find out for sure.

Enough of this conjecture.............

(Might have to park a few streets away )

Be keen to hear what you find out especially if they really know what is going on…

cj wrote:Chimpboy, I'm not happy as this mucks up me. I have doubts over the retroactive aspects discussed and tend to agree with your thoughts on chasing down some of the dodgier things that may be out there. Still the new regs are not particularly friendly.

These regs are more lenient than most of the country (excluding NSW and VIC) have allowed for years. NSW and VIC basically were undergoing a free-for-all while the rest of the country was in lockdown mode.

Check how long ago the draft was up for...... was this the timeframe before you did your mods? And more importantly, did you get them engineered?


As I pointed out in the original thread, back in 2005... if you have mods that fall outside those guidelines get them engineered NOW.


If you have no engineers cert (even if engineers cert wasnt needed for the mods at the time), then you're pretty well screwed. You cant prove that you legally installed those mods then.




4wd shops who have been selling the high lift kits have known it was coming too - ethically worng of them to sell it to you? Perhaps.... but then did they know it was on a roadgoing vehicle?


Did you actually ask anyone if your mods were actually legal, or if they'd heard anything about whether or not these would be legal.

Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware. As owner of the vehicle it's your responsibility to make sure that it's still legal.


When all's said and done, there will still be a heap of illegally modified 4wd's out there, and it will be a long time before everyone gets grabbed by the cops. By then the laws could change again.....






I can see the day coming (not too far off) when all vehicles are trailered to comps (with no attached numberplates and rego label, whether or not they're registered), and everyone is driving 2wd commodores and falcons to the carpark so they dont get hassled by the police.

Don't laugh - this is the behavior some bikie gangs have had to do for the last 2 decades at motorcycle runs and rallies. It's also been going on for years with the drags.

It's only just starting on the competition 4wd scene....

Hoppy11 wrote:

Beastmavster wrote:Laws change - what was once legal is now illegal. It's now illegal to stone people who had different religion to you to death....

Point taken, but in some countries you can still stone people to death, sorry to get off the topic
Hoppy

Not in victoria.

OK,
before even more people jump to conclusions on what they think it means, or who should be setting examples in life, because of where they work,

a vehicle I have some part in engineering over the last week, in which, people high up in vic Roads have been involved, is where the info has come from, and engineers have been given the go ahaed to engineer to the new DOTORS, with vehicles being recalled,and deregistered that never complied, with any law [eng report isnt a fix for something "outside" the rules] and Vic and NSW have started the recall proccess.

Simply, if your vehicle is on record with bigger than 33" tyres, or more than 3" lift, expect a letter in the next 2 years, as they recall them all is what they have said.

Having been told all of this, they havent really policed the existing laws, so, until fines and concequences get big, I dont see how much will change, as it seems they are encouraging you not to get engineered now.

The big message though was, we know people change tyres on weekends, and if your cruising around, and behaving yourself, and your vehicle is neat, and all the lights work, mudflaps etc, then week to week in the traffic, 33's are on, then your educated guess on tyres for weekends is up to you, with less chance of trouble.

Car clubs started covering No plates etc at comps like the HSV club, when I was a member back in 2000, so the 4wd movement may catch up soon.

Also,
knowing these laws have been coming for some time, we have been trialling 60mm long travel kits, with 60mm springs in my patrol, and an 80, which use very long shocks, and springs with longer free height, to stay captive with the heaps of extra droop, which will make for good handling trucks, with extended sway bars, and heaps of travel, which wont need engineering, unles they have our extra long travel FOX shock install, which can be engineered, with same springs, and we released them to the market this week.

srowlandson wrote:About time i say, should get a lot of the shit boxes off the road running dodgy mods / tyres.

we dont all wanna drive Rav4's steve....

AlbyOne wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:I've got tomorrow off. I'm going to go to Vicroads and find out for sure.

Enough of this conjecture.............

(Might have to park a few streets away )

Be keen to hear what you find out especially if they really know what is going on…

I have every intention of walking away with the official documents in hand, more to the point no intention of leaving without them.

I will also get details of contacts within VicRoads for questions relevant to the regs, and post everything I get up here tomorrow.

well seeing as my truck only gets about on weekends now i hope i'm ok. (must fit mud flaps soon)

or, when i one day do up the wifes jeep, instead of lift i'm going guard chopping for the weekend 35's.

and springs with longer free lengths is a good idea for the travel aspect, and can still remove sway bars for bush.

actually a cop looked over my patrol the other night with 36 beadlocked pedes on. he wasnt nice or rude. just looked it over and asked if i've been drinking, took my license and checked that out. then said have fun on your night drive.

DAMKIA wrote:I have every intention of walking away with the official documents in hand, more to the point no intention of leaving without them.

you better take a blanket and pillow

I will also get details of contacts within VicRoads for questions relevant to the regs, and post everything I get up here tomorrow.

Go Gaz.... like a killer poodle.

bogged wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:I have every intention of walking away with the official documents in hand, more to the point no intention of leaving without them.

you better take a blanket and pillow

I will also get details of contacts within VicRoads for questions relevant to the regs, and post everything I get up here tomorrow.

Go Gaz.... like a killer poodle.

At least I'm not sitting on my arse cutting and pasting...............

DAMKIA wrote:

AlbyOne wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:I've got tomorrow off. I'm going to go to Vicroads and find out for sure.

Enough of this conjecture.............

(Might have to park a few streets away )

Just remember, there are still cars being engineered, and with mods suited to what we do, and all you have to do is download the links on page one, and then book an engineer to get the info you require, as they are now engineering to those new regs as per links in this thread, so, apart from wasting your time at Vic roads tomorrow, im not sure what it is your attempting to achieve, that you could actually do more thoroughly, and more easily, with info you already have at your fingertips, from work, or home.

ats4x4dotcom wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:

AlbyOne wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:I've got tomorrow off. I'm going to go to Vicroads and find out for sure.

Enough of this conjecture.............

(Might have to park a few streets away )

Just remember, there are still cars being engineered, and with mods suited to what we do, and all you have to do is download the links on page one, and then book an engineer to get the info you require, as they are now engineering to those new regs as per links in this thread, so, apart from wasting your time at Vic roads tomorrow, im not sure what it is your attempting to achieve, that you could actually do more thoroughly, and more easily, with info you already have at your fingertips, from work, or home.

Ever tried to register a car on the Club Permit Scheme in Vic?

You soon learn that Vicroads Staff have NFI about anything other than processing a rego renewal or issuing licences.

You'll be there for weeks.

srowlandson wrote:

ats4x4dotcom wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:

AlbyOne wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:I've got tomorrow off. I'm going to go to Vicroads and find out for sure.

Enough of this conjecture.............

(Might have to park a few streets away )

Just remember, there are still cars being engineered, and with mods suited to what we do, and all you have to do is download the links on page one, and then book an engineer to get the info you require, as they are now engineering to those new regs as per links in this thread, so, apart from wasting your time at Vic roads tomorrow, im not sure what it is your attempting to achieve, that you could actually do more thoroughly, and more easily, with info you already have at your fingertips, from work, or home.

Ever tried to register a car on the Club Permit Scheme in Vic?

You soon learn that Vicroads Staff have NFI about anything other than processing a rego renewal or issuing licences.

You'll be there for weeks.

Thats why they have the DOTARS and engineers, as this is where you go for that information, not the Vic Roads office, as they will just get you to contact the right dept anyway.

DAMKIA wrote:At least I'm not sitting on my arse cutting and pasting...............

wooooooooooooooosshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Hmmm, If they start ripping rigs off the road in NSW, I'm sending mine to NZ, It will be a dam good holiday truck.

Now not only will I have to save for fuel, I'll have to save for plane tickets with fuel excise on them!!!

So what happens if your all correct in one state, and then travel to Vic to do some high country action or what ever?????
Do I have to park at the boarder and hitch a ride???

4Speed wrote:So what happens if your all correct in one state, and then travel to Vic to do some high country action or what ever?????

they are national rules - some states will be better off, and others not.


All I see happening is MORE illegal/unroadworthy 4wds on the road. most people who have invested $5000 on their truck aint going to give it up in a hurry....


PS.. I'd be deleting all members threads.. its a 1 stop shop for Vicroads.

ats4x4dotcom wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:

AlbyOne wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:I've got tomorrow off. I'm going to go to Vicroads and find out for sure.

Enough of this conjecture.............

(Might have to park a few streets away )

Just remember, there are still cars being engineered, and with mods suited to what we do, and all you have to do is download the links on page one, and then book an engineer to get the info you require, as they are now engineering to those new regs as per links in this thread, so, apart from wasting your time at Vic roads tomorrow, im not sure what it is your attempting to achieve, that you could actually do more thoroughly, and more easily, with info you already have at your fingertips, from work, or home.

Ever tried to register a car on the Club Permit Scheme in Vic?

You soon learn that Vicroads Staff have NFI about anything other than processing a rego renewal or issuing licences.

You'll be there for weeks.

Thats why they have the DOTARS and engineers, as this is where you go for that information, not the Vic Roads office, as they will just get you to contact the right dept anyway.

Yes, but it won't be DOTARS that are pulling us over or issuing the recalls...........

DAMKIA wrote:Yes, but it won't be DOTARS that are pulling us over or issuing the recalls...........

I would have thought they would have to work together ( ), but I think you have little chance of getting a straight answer out of Vicroads at all... as said, they have problems issuing rego stickers correctly.

In the end, the ADR's are a national set of rules related to vehicle design.

Not vehicle maintainance and modification.

How the maintainance and modification is enforced within each state is UP TO THE STATES. Hence the reason why the first code of practice got applied in some states, but not others. Hence the reason why NSW has annual inspections and other states dont....


Any state can be more or less restrictive, which is where this 33" max tyre bit comes from in VIC, which isn't actually in the Dotars NCOP at all.
(although that's what the 31" + 2" works out to for most 4wd's).



I'd be interested in seeing how they enforce the 33" tyre bit too. While clearly they have the ability to, VicRoads would need to make some publicly accessible statement about this, outside of the NCOP 2006 document, since they're setting a different set of "rules".

Exactly which 33" tyres are legal and which are not would need to be made clear too - you may find 305/70/16 is legal but 285/75/16 is not at the end of the day.






Remember guys - this is only ONE set of modification guidelines. Sure it's the most common set used for most people, but it doesnt actually mean that this is all that is allowed.



Ok, we've now had circumstantial evidence from TAS, NSW and now some pretty solid evidence from VIC that the NCOP is being applied, but it seems a little different in each state.


Any other state engineers got any more data for us on how it's affecting their approval process?

bogged wrote:Vic Roads are using chassis to ground, and sill to chassis measurements to determine the heights currently

I can see more people running 10psi in the future...

This has been the case in QLD for many years sucks