Outer Limits 4x4 Board

redzook wrote:

Pinball wrote:i'm fitting an internal this weekend.

a; tends to be a comp requirement
b; looks
c; allows for triangulated cross bracing
d; not to painful in a soft top to drop in or remove

if you are only goint to lay down on the side for a little nap then an exo should be fine... but if you are likely to roll multiple times with any force, due to speed or gravity then the extra strength is unbeatable.

Spock

were does the extra strength come from?

x2 when sam keck rolled the vit i dont remember seeing any broken windscreen and if your smart you set the front rake of the cage at a further forward position to the pillars.if you do go for a tumble with internal the windscreen will be the least of your damage dramas cause everything else will be stuffed too

i guess it depends what u want to save...

external can be built tuff and will work to a point, on a soft top or single cab you can include the triangulation braces for the extra rigidity and you are sweet.

A quick search of old threds will reveal plenty of discussions on cage designs and why certain design features are desirable in different situations. The cage exists to protect the occupants, if you are worried about panels they're called brush bars.

http://www.pointnshoot.org/index.php?mo ... ges&fid=21

shows a pic of a sierra that rolled at willowbank on the offroad practice track at pace, other pics showing bar design and proximity to panel work there as well.

The trick is to utilise triangular shapes in the frame design rather than squares, can be done to varying degrees with an exo, but on hardtops some critical hoop bracing is missed unless you puncture the skin of the vehicle.

That being said, you can always create a crash that will defeat a cage somehow and seriously maim or kill the occupant.

Contemplate the driving you will do, your driving style and talk to people who make the cages and use them in anger, then make your decision.

Spock

jeep97tj wrote:

redzook wrote:

Pinball wrote:i'm fitting an internal this weekend.

a; tends to be a comp requirement
b; looks
c; allows for triangulated cross bracing
d; not to painful in a soft top to drop in or remove

if you are only goint to lay down on the side for a little nap then an exo should be fine... but if you are likely to roll multiple times with any force, due to speed or gravity then the extra strength is unbeatable.

Spock

were does the extra strength come from?

The extre strenght comes from point "c"

The only difference between most internals and externals is the cross bracing of the main hoop.

It is easy to get the same strenght if u have a ute as u just cross brace behind the cab, with a wagon u will have to cut some holes in the body to get the cross bracing through, which i dont think is that big of a deal and dont know why more beople dont do it.

Remember it only takes 1 rock, log or even a mound of dirt to hit your windscreen frame to bend it and brake your windscreen. Not only will u be covered in glass but u will never be able to get a windscreen back in there again, and for something that will be driven on the road, that is not a good thing.

yes i realise diagonal bracing/ triangles is where strength comes from

i have an exo and i was just wondering why its not as strong as an internal

as in my eyes its as strong

the rear of mine slides into the round tube at the rear of the chassis at least 15 in each side and is welded in. properly constructed is properly constructed inernal or external it also depends on personal preference it depends on how much you like your panels too i guess.if i drove mine like i do with an internal i would have no panels left as im sure tim wouldnt either .bottom line is build it once build it right.without the exo i wouldnt be driving like this

nice zuk

More pics of wheeling like above, and less on internal vs external opinions

thanks for all the replies im pretty sure i will get an exo

Brad

good call roc box, I put my zook over all the time, just becuase I can.
1 more vote for exo. With my exo I can also take crazy lines, and for every time you put it over, there is usually a few times where you dont, driving lines that you would never take without your panel saver....

More pics of wheeling like above, and less on internal vs external opinions

Ok. here is a couple of mine.

do that with an internal and itll get real expensive real quick nice work mate

Think of it this way and make your choice:

You are driving your Zuk with friends on the trails and you put it on it's side...

A) You have an Internal cage, your Zuk is farked on one side, so you go home depressed and listen to Emo music while adding up what panels and glass cost and if you can find them.

B) You have an Exo, you and your friend's have a laugh and push it back on it's wheels and keep having fun.

I only have a internal but I have super tough paint instead I still drive the same lines as exo boys

Rhett wrote:I only have a internal but I have super tough paint instead I still drive the same lines as exo boys

Rhett, I believe that you just have no respect for panels

On the surface there seems to be an argument about internal vs. exo, but from what I have read everyone can agree on one thing. That is that regardless of the type of cage (internal or external) it will be effective if it is built properly.

AND that will mean that for an exo, if you need to punch a few holes in the body to fit a cross brace, then so be it, as that is part of "building it properly".

There is another issue: as you are in Queensland you have to consider QLD Transport - the EXO isn't a problem, whereas any internal cage has to be engineered as it is in the "headspace"...gets worse if it is a 4 seater.

I'm about to fit an EXO after having internal rollbars and they are definitely safer / stronger in my opinion.

Rhett wrote:I only have a internal but I have super tough paint instead I still drive the same lines as exo boys

is yours regod rhett

yep am pretty sure rhett's is still rego'd. and Rhett at least when you strip yours off its almost like an exo, only front quarters and rear tub wall to be bashed...

must like that crushed coke can look

My coke can gets straighted out quite regulary



two days later

so how much bog is inside of halfcut rhett?

There wouldn't be more than 3/4 of a cup of bog in my whole car. probly will be a bit more after I straighn it again though. It can wait till after logan challange and yes my car is redgoed roc box.

Rhett your paint job is awsome! Who did that for you or did you do it your self/

Some great pics in this tread!

Ive done it all myself. After rolling it and fixing it for a few years you start to get better at painting

Thats awsome!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=480716

Here's a cool idea i found (not mine) depending on the type of driving you do. Not for everyone but cool all the same...
Basically an internal cage with external sliders on common places hit...

Quite some time ago when I was building my ride I couldn't decide if I wanted exo or full internal cage... so I did both... well kinda...

Heres partial frontal to give you an idea of what I might use my rig for... of course everything is relative now istn't it.... I'm of the wuss type, I like to be warm and dry when I weel in the winter

The roof-sliders are tied into the full DOM internal cage....They actually unbolt from the inside with BIG bolts of the G8 style

I must say they get used surprisingly often here in the PNW tree-ridden area...

There is a very important point here that some people have touched on, but I don't think has been explained well enough.

I have built both internal and external cages on sierras.

Internal cages are great, in competition cars, where the occupants are ALWAYS WEARING HARNESSES AND HELMETS

If you drive off road without either, there is a very real risk that you will suffer life threatening head injuries in a roll because you will strike the cage, which will be much closer to your head than the interior panels, and not at all deformable. (interior steelwork will deform even if struck by your head, reducing the impact)

This is the #1 reason why full cages (with a pillar bars) are so hard to engineer in road cars.

There are generally rules about he padding of cages in the vicinity of the driver, but the will make the cage even more bulky and difficult to live with.

Many years ago we lost the president of our club in a car accident where he was knocked unconscious in his car as rolled over (it landed in a river) He was a tall driver and had an unpadded 4 point cage in the car (B pillar and braced to the rear)

I am willing to bet that he struck his head on that cage in the process of his car rolling.

I am a strong advocate of external cages in suzukis. They do not have to look like plumbers racks or jam the car up. Run them through the cowl at the base of the windscreen and down to footplates around the front body mount, or from there through to the chassis. (this is how safety devices build defender cages int he UK) Behind the B pillar they can be run back into a conventional 4 point cage, by either going through the roof with insulated sandwich plates.

I believe this is the best compromise for a recreational suzuki, and will reduce the chances of totalling the tub, which is a real bonus.

Steve.

Interseting idea GWS and valid point re headspace...

got any diagrams of said install methods?

Spock

Rhett wrote:Ive done it all myself. After rolling it and fixing it for a few years you start to get better at painting

now you see rhett you would save ya self alot of drama with an exo ,you could roll willy nilly no stress and alot less work

roc box wrote:

Rhett wrote:Ive done it all myself. After rolling it and fixing it for a few years you start to get better at painting

now you see rhett you would save ya self alot of drama with an exo ,you could roll willy nilly no stress and alot less work

ahh.... but would he be able to paint so well without the practice

Gwagensteve i think youve changed my mind if i ever do a cage!

I had never thought of the head room issue and is a very serious thing to consider if you are building a cage.

I was always an internal man but i think for things like zooks it has to be external as long as your not doing comp's!

What would be the ideal pipe size to use?

thanks