Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I just got the lavato diesel gas system ($4000 one) put on my naturally aspired td42. I am very impressed with the increased drivability of the vehicle, it revs out alot easier and picks up noticably quicker between 2000 and 3000rpm.

I havnt figured out the economy difference yet, however, for a $1000 it is definatly worth the investment. It only cost me $1000 as i live in W.A and also get the $1000 state government rebate.

cheers
cuzza

I have done about 1000km now getting about 550km to 70l and about 20l og gas.

About 50-100 more kms to a tank and heaps more go.

Still a winner

awill4x4 wrote:

bilby wrote:from memory the best way to do this is tap the LPG in
BEFORE the turbo , the LPG is a cold gas and keeps the
turbo temp down allowing more boost to be run
i have found the article if someone
can post it up for me

Yep, I've seen one of these installs on a Discovery with the LPG guys next door having a laugh at what a piss poor installation it was. A simple egg ring mixer upstream of the turbo that wasn't held securely and could turn in the inlet piping that really restricts air flow into the turbo (even without it turning). A really simple 2 bar map sensor and valve to regulate gas flow with some suspect wiring and plumbing. All this supplied and fitted by one of the largest LPG installers in Vic for $4500+. The guys next door couldn't believe it, they were nearly rolling on the floor with laughter.
The car had just had the head replaced by another mechanic and was blowing black smoke enough to fill their factory when it was on their dyno.
Mike, the owner of the place next door has had the diesel/LPG guys coming in trying to get him interested in doing diesel/LPG installs, he just tells them to piss off he can't believe the bulltish they're sprouting.
Mike tends to end up with the problem cars that other installers have done and with the government rebate the shonky guys are coming out of the woodwork.
Regards Andrew.

Hmmmm, could this be a little of the green eyed monster ?
Or, could it be simply bitchy cause their agency was not chosen for the instalations ?

Some of these remarks on here bad mouthing the LPG fumigation seem to all have one thing in common, and that is soemone OTHER then guys with HANDS ON EXPERIENCE are making the dergogatory remarks.
I wonder why.

F.A.C.T. ALL SUCH GAS INSTALLATIONS (in W.A. anyway) ARE REQUIRED BY LAW, TO BE INSTALLED WITHIN LEGAL GUIDLEINES, FURTHER, AFTER INSTALATION, VEHICLES MUST BE PUT OVER THE PITS FOR INSPECTION, if not in conformity of Govt guidelines, will be rejected and returned to installer.
NO REBATE WILL BE PAID BY ANYONE, UNLESS PASSES PIT INSPECTION.

There you have it naysayers and doomsayers, read it an weap.
Course I'm gettin mine installed next week, YAY ! COOL, eat yer hearts out.
Cost has increased dramatically, it's claimed suppliers have increased all their prices of parts, now costs $4, 290 however seeings I'm in W.A. (simply the BEST STATE) we're rebated up to $3,000 thus full instalation costing only $1,290 HOW'S THAT you Eastern State guys ?
Compare that to a chip, which costs similar and doesn't give half the benfits, how can anyone go wrong ?

If I had a diesel I'd do it in a flash....

michael a wrote:I have done about 1000km now getting about 550km to 70l and about 20l og gas.

About 50-100 more kms to a tank and heaps more go.

Still a winner

Michael,
Picked up my 2.8 TD from Diesel Gas this evening.
Happy it's finally been fitted ................. BUT........... not happy with the advice from the installer.
Turns out the darn thing is now producing too much power for the clutch to handle would you believe ?
In all fairness, I have no idea whethet it's still the original clutch or how much work it's done, or how close to the end of it's lifetime it is.
Suffice to say, PRE gas installation there were NO SLIPPAGE problems.
1st gear and 2 nd gear are fine, it's when she's put in 3 rd and the tacho comes up to 2,800 this become very serious and the tacho then wanders off on it's own with the speed lagging behind, clear indicator of clutch slippage and failing to transfer the load.
As a temporary measure, I intend to go light on the pedal and investigate the expense of clitch replacement, though coming at this time and after spending my piggy bank for the instalation, it could be a while until I can resolve this issue.
Just hope it doesn't collapse before then.

They removed my straight thru muffler cause the gas tank had to be fitted there. Told me that with a Turbo a muffler was not really neccessary, however on the way home I did notice resonation more then normal coming from the rear end, DON'T LIKE IT and will see how things go, maybe see about fitting a resonator there.
I now have a LUKEY 2 1/2 inch straight thru muffler 4 months old for sale if anyone's interested. $50 and she's all yours.

Clutch slip always appears initially in the higher gears when the load is applied. So this is not the fault of the LPG installation. You would have been up for a new clutch very soon anyway. The LPG conversion has just given you more power.

I don't agree with their comment about removing the muffler. Turbos do not require backpressure in the way that a normally aspirated engine does, but they do reduce resonance as you have found out. I would have thought that they would have repositioned the muffler to fit the LPG tank in and not just remove it. I would go back to them and ask for the muffler to be reinstalled or a resonator fitted.

Regards

Peter K.

I agree, your clutch was probably on the way out anyway, when mine went, it was fine till I took off from lights on a hill then when ever gave it a bit in low gears or came to a hill in high gears the revs would increase but speed drop. if your up for a new clutch your looking at about $3500 for the same as came from the factory, or about $2500 for the conversion kit which if you get the next time goes only requires normal type clutch.

I have a 3inch free flow system and when first fitted could really notice the sound difference (But I loved it!), now I have gotten use to it.

itchyvet wrote:

michael a wrote:I have done about 1000km now getting about 550km to 70l and about 20l og gas.

About 50-100 more kms to a tank and heaps more go.

Still a winner

Michael,
Picked up my 2.8 TD from Diesel Gas this evening.
Happy it's finally been fitted ................. BUT........... not happy with the advice from the installer.
Turns out the darn thing is now producing too much power for the clutch to handle would you believe ?
In all fairness, I have no idea whethet it's still the original clutch or how much work it's done, or how close to the end of it's lifetime it is.
Suffice to say, PRE gas installation there were NO SLIPPAGE problems.
1st gear and 2 nd gear are fine, it's when she's put in 3 rd and the tacho comes up to 2,800 this become very serious and the tacho then wanders off on it's own with the speed lagging behind, clear indicator of clutch slippage and failing to transfer the load.
As a temporary measure, I intend to go light on the pedal and investigate the expense of clitch replacement, though coming at this time and after spending my piggy bank for the instalation, it could be a while until I can resolve this issue.
Just hope it doesn't collapse before then.

They removed my straight thru muffler cause the gas tank had to be fitted there. Told me that with a Turbo a muffler was not really neccessary, however on the way home I did notice resonation more then normal coming from the rear end, DON'T LIKE IT and will see how things go, maybe see about fitting a resonator there.
I now have a LUKEY 2 1/2 inch straight thru muffler 4 months old for sale if anyone's interested. $50 and she's all yours.

Yeah clutch slipping is not gas fault just bad luck.

As for muffler you could have had the tank fitted inside the car. Thay would do that for you im sure. I have been real happy with mine on the freeway its great now top everywhere.

I have 35 with 4.11 gears.

Went up stocko on weekend top gear up all the hills on freeway and heaps better on sand to.

HARMZ wrote:I agree, your clutch was probably on the way out anyway, when mine went, it was fine till I took off from lights on a hill then when ever gave it a bit in low gears or came to a hill in high gears the revs would increase but speed drop. if your up for a new clutch your looking at about $3500 for the same as came from the factory, or about $2500 for the conversion kit which if you get the next time goes only requires normal type clutch.

I have a 3inch free flow system and when first fitted could really notice the sound difference (But I loved it!), now I have gotten use to it.

Hey Cool, appreciate the feed back and comments people.
One thing though, I wasn't complaining about anything, just passing on my experiences so others could keep look out to avoid similar.
I'm very much aware, that the gas conversion DID NOT CAUSE THE CLUTCH SLIP,.
I also understand that the clutch must be nearing the end of it's life and the EXTRA power appied to it, as a result of the gas fumigation, has highlighted this.
From one perspective, I guess I should be thankful of it all, as it's good to know when a componant is nearing the end of it's serviceable life thus giving ample time to arrange down time for it's replacement.
We had planned on going away this Christmas and it scares the hell outa me, knowing the clutch could have blown away from home over this period, at least now, forewarned is forarmed, we can rectify the problem whilst we're still at home.
As fer the gas fumigation, right now it's turned OFF, don't wanna encourage the clutch slip, on straight diesel it doesn't slip at all.
Course, this also raises the question, whether in fatc the clutch is really on the way out, or just unable to cope with the increased power.
I mean what happens if I spend big bucks on replacing the clutch and then find the new one slips TOO ?
That would most certainly make for a very unhappy little camper.

The exhaust bit...... Yeah, I'm definately NOT HAPPY about it.
One of the things that convinced us to buy this Patrol was the smooth, quiet ride it gave, this is no longer the case, with the exhaust note resonating at the rear, quiet annoying in fact.
I did have the choice of fitting the tank inside, however there's not very much room inside as it is, and I was loath to surrender any of it, that's why it's underneath.
From my observation of the setup, it would appear to me, it may be possible to fit a smaller straight thru set up, (Hot Dog ?)will check this out with exhaust people, one things for sure though, the Lukey muffler I have, will NOT fit in the space available.

"HARMZ",

I'd appreciate any info you could provide me with in regards the clutch.
As I haven't heard of a "conversion kit".
Convert what ?
I priced a new clutch plate with Nissan today, ($240) no one there advised me of a "CONVERSION KIT" and my son in law tells' me a horror story from a mate of his, complete with fly wheel replacement/clutch plate/pressure plate all costing around $4 - 5,000 big ones.
Finally dragged out the manual,(genuine Nissan manual, maybe it would repay me now for the cost it set me back for ?) had a good read and squizz, and must confess there was nothing in the manual mentioning a "conversion kit".
In fact it was quiet straight forwards in replacing the clutch plate and checking out the pressure plate, other then inspecting flywheel for damage, possible burn marks which were recommended to emery clear, there doesn't appear to be anything there to justify the amount of money I'm hearing being bandied about.
Admittedly, it WON'T be a piece of cake removing the box, specially without a hoist and owning only ONE hydrolic jack, the muthas BIG, even if it is supposedly just a "LIGHT" box, as some would have us believe.

When I went to Nissan (Village Motors Redcliffe) they quoted me $3,300 as they said it some special clutch that is bonded to the flywheel, and to replace flywheel needs machining, talked to a mate about the problem said had his converted, went to local mechanic who had done it before, and ended up costing $2200, i'm sure someone else knows more about it here than me and should be some info on here as well.

Harmz,

Thanks fer that, appreciated.
So far the info I've gathered tells me that the earlier 2.8 had this system you're mentioning and did require modification.
You're not to far off the mark either for the prices involved.
Pretty dreary situation all round I reckon

However, after thorough study of my manuals and even more thorough scrutiny of my model details, according to my calculations my model is NOT fitted with that set up

The manual clearly shows a STANDARD flywheel/cluctch/pressure plate setup.
No mention is made of the fly wheel other then burn marks, scuff marks which should be rubbed off with emery paper, then checked for truness and cracks.
IF cracks are evidant, flywheel must be replaced. TAHTS ALL IT SAYS.

They also tell me the difference between the earlier model and the later is the early is fitted with mechanical fuel injector pump, later fitted with ECU controlled injector pump.

Anyways, still gathering data and will keep posted on developments.

Oh another small detail, had the Trol over the pits today to get certified as legit and legal lpg fitting and ensure jib was done to accepted standards, would you believe the guy grizzeled cause the steel baffle used to protect the gas bottle didn't have a draining hole drilled at the bottom, he reckons any muck caught up between couldn't drain clear thus a drain hole would need tobe drilled, get it done and bring it back.
How's that for a putz ?

You're correct. GQ 2.8s have normal flywheel / clutch. GU 2.8s have the 'expensive' clutch.

Peter K.

Hey Folks, been doing quiet a bit of running round checking out the FACTS/RUMOURS/LIES ect, floating round on this issue.

No 1, Doesn't matter what pictures/writting the Genuine Nissan shop manual shows/says, I have been informed IT IS FITTED WITH DUAL MASS FLYWHEEL, UNLESS it's already been modified with the fitting of a coversion kit.
Further, there's no way of knowing what is what, until the gearbox/transfer case are removed.

No 2, IF FITTED with DUAL MASS set up, MUST ALL BE DISCARDED AND REPLACED, NO IF's NO But's.
Can be fitted with after market coversion kit at HALF the price of genuine replacement bits.

And this is the clincher...

No 3, PATROLS ARE NOT THE ONLY VEHICLE FITTED WITH DUAL MASS FLYWHEELS.
I've been reliably informed, late model Commodores are also fitted with such flywheels, as are Hyundi's and Kia, as well as some European makes.
All costing in the vicinity of $3,000 to replace.

No 4, The reason, I'm told, for the fitting of these clutches is because the material used in the clutch plate that's replaced the old asbestos ones, is a much harder and fiercer wearing material then the old asbestos, thus causing much wear and coarser operation of clutch and power transfer.
It is claimed, manufacturers have found DUAL MASS clutches deal with these issues far better and offer superior handling and power transfer then the old style clutch and pressure plate.
Therefore, it is alledged, many more vehicles with manual gear boxes will utlimately be fitted with these flywheel/clutch setups.

There you go fellas, that's the story I've gleaned from FOUR different workshops including the Nissan dealers.

For my money, as we've been very impressed with the quality ride from our Patrol, we are very hesitant in jeopardising that by fitting a conversion kit, despite it being half the price of Genuine replacement.
So we're going for the DUAL MASS FLYWHEEL replacement from Nissan.

$3000 now....$3000 in another 5 years maybe.... + headaches!

V6 Commodores with getrag gearboxes have dual mass flywheels to help dampen out low rev engine vibrations. The fitment of a heavier mass flywheel will also fix this.

Chevtorque makes heavy single mass flywheels for v6 conversions into 4wd's. They are usually bigger in diameter and need the gear changed on the starter.

Find some people who have actually done the conversion and see what their feelings are.

Dual mass flywheels don't stand up well to towing.

Good luck

The bit about all new Commodores being fitted with the Dual Mass Flywheel is exactly what my mechanic told me and that there will be alot of SS owners upset when it comes time for a new clutch.

Itchy, I can't tell any difference between the clutches and have no complaints nor does my mate who also has had the conversion done, you got to think that if you ever do touring and the clutch goes, what do you want to replace the whole setup of just the clutch.

Recently had a 4 terrain heavy duty clutch fitted to my 4.2 with a cost of $1,100.

Should be about the same for the 2.8

HARMZ wrote:The bit about all new Commodores being fitted with the Dual Mass Flywheel is exactly what my mechanic told me and that there will be alot of SS owners upset when it comes time for a new clutch.

Itchy, I can't tell any difference between the clutches and have no complaints nor does my mate who also has had the conversion done, you got to think that if you ever do touring and the clutch goes, what do you want to replace the whole setup of just the clutch.

HARMZ,

Yeah, you're right, have given this considerble thought, however as I've been told, the expected cutch life around 150-160,000 K's IF treated with respect, I think I'd be trading the Patrol in well before that mileage would come up.
One thing I am positive about, that is have no wish to alter the ride characteristics of the Patrol from what it is right now.

I guess it's very similar to the views and opinions regarding straight thrus of the exhaust system with Turbos fitted.
From posts here, it's obvious a lot of guys just love the sound and are very happy with the results.
I, on the other hand, don't like it, and intend to fit a hot dog as soon as the clutch issue is resolved, I like my ride nice and smooth and quiet.

Back again folks. Hey the gas fumigation is still runnin fine, actually just got my letter from Medicare telling me they've refunded me $2,000 big ones for the instalation. Cool hey ?
W.A. Govt also refunded me $1,000 so that makes it the whole shebang cost me $900. Now c'mon folks, that's gotta beat any chip hands down.

Righto, clutch's been done, ended up replacing with conversion kit.
And YES ! there is a big difference. Not half as smooth or quiet as the original.
Also couldn't find anyone who was prepared to just replace the clutch plate.
At the end of the day, they gave us back the original flywheel/clutch plate/pressure plate/thrust bearing.
From my observation,(and I've changed out Heaps of clutches in my time) the fly wheel did not look damaged at all, a gentle skim would've seen things right I reckon.
Clutch plate was most definately cactus, pressure plate excellent shape.

Now for the novices, the flywheel comes in two parts and fits together with a geared mechanism in between, this mechanism acts as a cushion with gear changes and power transfer thereby saving wear and tear on all drive train components as well as providing a smooth ride.
None of this mechanism appeared to be in bad shape.
I sincerely believe, it was not neccessary to change out the flywheel or pressure plate.
In fact am gonna take the flywheel to a machine shop and see if they can skim off a coupla thou and I'll reuse the thing next clutch change out.
Oh yeah, the conversion kit does not come with a starter ring gear, so you gotta take the oldie off and replace it on the new flywheel.
Tricky bit, as if you're too heavy with things, you could bugger the thing, then you'd hafta buy a newy.
For my money..... wait until you see the oldie and the condition it's in before you decide to replace it.
I reckon I've been bullshitted to and things would've gone just as well replacing just the clutch plate.

Initial fuel consumption tells me we're gettin 29 Km's per 40 litre extra running on gas at this point, that's around town, soI reckon should increase a bit on the highway.
Powers excellent, for W.A. guys, she went up Green mount with 5 adults on board like a rocket in 5 gear all the way to the top. Cool
Previously, would've been a 4 th and even 3 gear in places.
Haven't tried her yet with the camper on back, will be doing that on the Australia Day weekend going up Green mount again with that on the back, should be quiet revealing.
Stay tuned.

That good to hear that you are happy with it now after the first dramas.

Mine has been going great.

A good way to tast it is get it pinned in top with gas off then turn on the gas you can feel the pick up straight away when gas turns on.

My truck would not get o0ver 135km before now I backed off at 150km because a 8 in lift aint that stable at 150km.

Im getting new shocks soon so I will go for another land speed record after I do them.

on the not of the DUEL MASS FLYWHEEL for the RD28 GU, they retail for about $1900 at last check, we had ours replaced abput 2 years ago, we just done an engine conversion and we gound it was due to be changed again, this truck runs 35's and tows a camper, so its not very good value for money, there was alot of slop in it when pulled off and compared it to a new one,

i was advised there is also a conversion kit from certain clutch places retailing at about $1650, so calk tot he clutch specialists first and ask them,