Outer Limits 4x4 Board

This might be useful for you turbo boys, i stumbled across it one night when looking for a compression calculator. It can work out effective compression ratios, intercooler efficiency, turbo outlet temps etc.

Its a good tool to have

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calculations.htm

A slight corection on my figures 8:2 comp at 14 psi is 11.4:1 on boost. It should handle 20 degrees of timing at an air fuel ratio of about 12.5. Remember,LPG has about 105 octane. If it was running petrol it would need to be 16-18 timing. Also look at the combustion chamber and chamfer off the sharp edge on the step up. these create hot spots that start detonation. Every engine is diferent in its fuel requirments so i use a pyro after the turbo and keep adding boost fuel until i get 550-580 c regardless of airfuel ratio. Some engines require so mutch fuel in boost that they might need cdi ignition. WOZ.

WOZ wrote:A slight corection on my figures 8:2 comp at 14 psi is 11.4:1 on boost. It should handle 20 degrees of timing at an air fuel ratio of about 12.5. Remember,LPG has about 105 octane. If it was running petrol it would need to be 16-18 timing. Also look at the combustion chamber and chamfer off the sharp edge on the step up. these create hot spots that start detonation. Every engine is diferent in its fuel requirments so i use a pyro after the turbo and keep adding boost fuel until i get 550-580 c regardless of airfuel ratio. Some engines require so mutch fuel in boost that they might need cdi ignition. WOZ.

Hang on at 14.7 PSI should be double so closer to 16.4 to 1, at 14 pounds boost i figure get is 16.0 to 1, which the calculator backs up...

If you use those on boost calculations, every 20 lb jap engine is between 19 and 22:1 in boost and would never survive on pump fuel. The formula i`ve used for nearly 20 years sucessfully is very different. I`ve proved this time and time again by not pushing head gaskets and bruising bearings. Most of the turbo engines i do are built 7-8:1 and tune at 20-24 total timing at 20+ lbs of boost on pump gas. Most turbo engine builders work on similar princables.

So eventually it will work out that you can only run about 13 deg safely. I call safe being able to flog the crap out of it for long periods of time in any conditioins.

WOZ wrote:If you use those on boost calculations, every 20 lb jap engine is between 19 and 22:1 in boost and would never survive on pump fuel. The formula i`ve used for nearly 20 years sucessfully is very different. I`ve proved this time and time again by not pushing head gaskets and bruising bearings. Most of the turbo engines i do are built 7-8:1 and tune at 20-24 total timing at 20+ lbs of boost on pump gas. Most turbo engine builders work on similar princables.

So of the tb42's that you have turboed, have you actually run 20 deg timing IMO youd be making 350+ hp @ the wheels with that much timing and 15 psi of boost. this would be on 35inch tyres.
This could be achieved with head mods IMO but not with a standard head on a tb42

WOZ wrote:If you use those on boost calculations, every 20 lb jap engine is between 19 and 22:1 in boost and would never survive on pump fuel. The formula i`ve used for nearly 20 years sucessfully is very different. I`ve proved this time and time again by not pushing head gaskets and bruising bearings. Most of the turbo engines i do are built 7-8:1 and tune at 20-24 total timing at 20+ lbs of boost on pump gas. Most turbo engine builders work on similar princables.

Not questioning your timing or bearing load as I couldn't give half a flying fuck about that, fact is fact atmo is 14.7 psi add another 14.7psi and your basically doubling air in the motor and therefore compression, don't care if you got your calculations from an abacus i think you need to redo your calculations.

You come across as the one who knows all about everything, but even basic calculations seem miles out.

Jap engines can endure more boost even in stock form for a number of reasons, they are soo many things that make them different from a 4..2 patrol motor its not worth writing here, if you cant work out why a jap motor will take more boost in stock form than a 4.2 clunker without letting go you really do make out to know more than you do.

Zac Zec wrote:

WOZ wrote:If you use those on boost calculations, every 20 lb jap engine is between 19 and 22:1 in boost and would never survive on pump fuel. The formula i`ve used for nearly 20 years sucessfully is very different. I`ve proved this time and time again by not pushing head gaskets and bruising bearings. Most of the turbo engines i do are built 7-8:1 and tune at 20-24 total timing at 20+ lbs of boost on pump gas. Most turbo engine builders work on similar princables.

So of the tb42's that you have turboed, have you actually run 20 deg timing IMO youd be making 350+ hp @ the wheels with that much timing and 15 psi of boost. this would be on 35inch tyres.
This could be achieved with head mods IMO but not with a standard head on a tb42

When i put a timming light on my car when it is idling it shows max timming that my car can handle.. it's over the scale that u look at on the engine..

I'm not sure what u are all saying about timming i don't get it LOL

NutterGQ wrote:

WOZ wrote:If you use those on boost calculations, every 20 lb jap engine is between 19 and 22:1 in boost and would never survive on pump fuel. The formula i`ve used for nearly 20 years sucessfully is very different. I`ve proved this time and time again by not pushing head gaskets and bruising bearings. Most of the turbo engines i do are built 7-8:1 and tune at 20-24 total timing at 20+ lbs of boost on pump gas. Most turbo engine builders work on similar princables.

Not questioning your timing or bearing load as I couldn't give half a flying ***** about that, fact is fact atmo is 14.7 psi add another 14.7psi and your basically doubling air in the motor and therefore compression, don't care if you got your calculations from an abacus i think you need to redo your calculations.


You come across as the one who knows all about everything, but even basic calculations seem miles out.

Jap engines can endure more boost even in stock form for a number of reasons, they are soo many things that make them different from a 4..2 patrol motor its not worth writing here, if you cant work out why a jap motor will take more boost in stock form than a 4.2 clunker without letting go you really do make out to know more than you do.

Fact is fact you dont seem to know S@#T.... Im sure he wouldnt give half a flying F@#K what you have to say either. What do you actually do for a living and have you ever built and tuned a turbo engine with power figures to prove it? This does not mean just whackin on a big turbo.....

The biggest difference between a factory non turbo and a turbo motor is the static compression ratio and fuel system. Cant you get you air-rated head around that?

I have seen for myself the power figures and reliability of all off Wazzas engines wether it be a N/A motor turboed or a modified turbo engine.
This may not be a TB but it is still a N/A motor turboed. It is running 24 timing at 19lb boost. HERE clicky clicky>>> http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=111898

There is a turbo TB42 on the build at the moment based on stock compression ratio for giantracings new winch truck. Im sure Woz will be confident in running 20 degrees + timing. So im sure he will keep you posted and prove a few of your expert internet theories wrong.

ANDY_M wrote:

NutterGQ wrote:

WOZ wrote:If you use those on boost calculations, every 20 lb jap engine is between 19 and 22:1 in boost and would never survive on pump fuel. The formula i`ve used for nearly 20 years sucessfully is very different. I`ve proved this time and time again by not pushing head gaskets and bruising bearings. Most of the turbo engines i do are built 7-8:1 and tune at 20-24 total timing at 20+ lbs of boost on pump gas. Most turbo engine builders work on similar princables.

Not questioning your timing or bearing load as I couldn't give half a flying ***** about that, fact is fact atmo is 14.7 psi add another 14.7psi and your basically doubling air in the motor and therefore compression, don't care if you got your calculations from an abacus i think you need to redo your calculations.


You come across as the one who knows all about everything, but even basic calculations seem miles out.

Jap engines can endure more boost even in stock form for a number of reasons, they are soo many things that make them different from a 4..2 patrol motor its not worth writing here, if you cant work out why a jap motor will take more boost in stock form than a 4.2 clunker without letting go you really do make out to know more than you do.

Fact is fact you dont seem to know S@#T.... Im sure he wouldnt give half a flying F@#K what you have to say either. What do you actually do for a living and have you ever built and tuned a turbo engine with power figures to prove it? This does not mean just whackin on a big turbo.....

The biggest difference between a factory non turbo and a turbo motor is the static compression ratio and fuel system. Cant you get you air-rated head around that?

I have seen for myself the power figures and reliability of all off Wazzas engines wether it be a N/A motor turboed or a modified turbo engine.
This may not be a TB but it is still a N/A motor turboed. It is running 24 timing at 19lb boost. HERE clicky clicky>>> http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=111898

There is a turbo TB42 on the build at the moment based on stock compression ratio for giantracings new winch truck. Im sure Woz will be confident in running 20 degrees + timing. So im sure he will keep you posted and prove a few of your expert internet theories wrong.

I dont want to get into your cat fight but unless you run water injection or that super dooper elf fuel i very much doubt it will run 20deg+ with the standard head and compression, safely that is.

Tend to agree 1 atmosphere is 1 atmosphere so therefore it would essentially double the capacity of your engine

Andy a TB is a Tb and not anything else. It came off the arc with noah.
So it is no comparison, sorry

Mulisha
that is your timing at idle that you are reading with the timing light, not the timing you are running at full power/boost

I dont have internet theories I've done it, have you

Zac Zec wrote: I dont want to get into your cat fight but unless you run water injection or that super dooper elf fuel i very much doubt it will run 20deg+ with the standard head and compression, safely that is.

Tend to agree 1 atmosphere is 1 atmosphere so therefore it would essentially double the capacity of your engine

Andy a TB is a Tb and not anything else. It came off the arc with noah.
So it is no comparison, sorry

I wasnt refering to you but whatever There will be no water injection or race fuel. There are no old school or sneeky tricks involved. Like i said im sure we will see.

and also NO i have never built a turboed engine before. I was asking the question. I have seen first hand the engines getting built and the results to go with the engines.

Just to put my 2cents worth in...lol

a stock (old tech) NA motor only gets about 80% volumetric effiency, so is only ever drawing 80% or so of its rated capacity,

adding forced induction, even with no pressure (on paper), will increase your V.E. and hence power by 20% or so... minus the cost to drive the compressor (not much with a turbo i believe)

this would require a timing change. dont ask me how much, as this is just my internet opinion...

doubleing the pressure to 14psi, wont double your power fron here.. as the denser air will have a harder path through the ports valves ect. and compressing the air x2 is going to heat the air no matter how good your intercooler (restriction) is, so your not getting twice the air, just twice the pressure (at the face of the compressor).

and thats my uninformed opinion...lol

At the end of the day 95% of the tb42 turbo motors out there are are just a bulk stock motors with turbos hanging of the sides of them. They are NOT specifically built motors which by the sounds of things is what woz is going to do. If that is the case there is NO way in the world i will dispute that 20+deg is not achieveable. But...... as i just said the majority are stockers with turbos and in this configuration 20+ deg i question.
So IMO to say this is would be false.

Zac Zec wrote:At the end of the day 95% of the tb42 turbo motors out there are are just a bulk stock motors with turbos hanging of the sides of them. They are NOT specifically built motors which by the sounds of things is what woz is going to do. If that is the case there is NO way in the world i will dispute that 20+deg is not achieveable. But...... as i just said the majority are stockers with turbos and in this configuration 20+ deg i question.
So IMO to say this is would be false.

What needs to be done to the stock motor to be able to handle high boost 20psi ?

Rick.

rOd wrote:And all ran well after that.

but this car will never run smoothly...

Mulisha wrote:

Zac Zec wrote:At the end of the day 95% of the tb42 turbo motors out there are are just a bulk stock motors with turbos hanging of the sides of them. They are NOT specifically built motors which by the sounds of things is what woz is going to do. If that is the case there is NO way in the world i will dispute that 20+deg is not achieveable. But...... as i just said the majority are stockers with turbos and in this configuration 20+ deg i question.
So IMO to say this is would be false.

What needs to be done to the stock motor to be able to handle high boost 20psi ?

Rick.

trev henning spent well over 10grand to build his motor to handle bip hp, for a while anyway

bogged wrote:

rOd wrote:And all ran well after that.

but this car will never run smoothly...

And u will always care by the posts u keep posting here

GRINCH wrote:

Mulisha wrote:

Zac Zec wrote:At the end of the day 95% of the tb42 turbo motors out there are are just a bulk stock motors with turbos hanging of the sides of them. They are NOT specifically built motors which by the sounds of things is what woz is going to do. If that is the case there is NO way in the world i will dispute that 20+deg is not achieveable. But...... as i just said the majority are stockers with turbos and in this configuration 20+ deg i question.
So IMO to say this is would be false.

What needs to be done to the stock motor to be able to handle high boost 20psi ?

Rick.

trev henning spent well over 10grand to build his motor to handle bip hp, for a while anyway

oh ok cheers mate

Rick.

Mulisha wrote:

Zac Zec wrote:At the end of the day 95% of the tb42 turbo motors out there are are just a bulk stock motors with turbos hanging of the sides of them. They are NOT specifically built motors which by the sounds of things is what woz is going to do. If that is the case there is NO way in the world i will dispute that 20+deg is not achieveable. But...... as i just said the majority are stockers with turbos and in this configuration 20+ deg i question.
So IMO to say this is would be false.

What needs to be done to the stock motor to be able to handle high boost 20psi ?

Rick.

i have some usefull info for you too...




its a cat fight allready so keep me laughing, pleeeeeeeeese!

TEAMRPM wrote:

Mulisha wrote:

Zac Zec wrote:At the end of the day 95% of the tb42 turbo motors out there are are just a bulk stock motors with turbos hanging of the sides of them. They are NOT specifically built motors which by the sounds of things is what woz is going to do. If that is the case there is NO way in the world i will dispute that 20+deg is not achieveable. But...... as i just said the majority are stockers with turbos and in this configuration 20+ deg i question.
So IMO to say this is would be false.

What needs to be done to the stock motor to be able to handle high boost 20psi ?

Rick.

i have some usefull info for you too...




its a cat fight allready so keep me laughing, pleeeeeeeeese!

HAHA i know ..

if u ever have a spare 1hr or so go from the start of thise thread to now..

It started out my car made fark all power and i was un happy to now having a very nice powefully car and sorting a few problems out and with people arguing about 20 degree timming or something..

Kinda funny when u think about it and also i just noticed how many views this thread has had and posts

Rick.

Timing estimates based on dynamic compression are just that, the speed of flame propagation and ultimate timing depend on squish, turbulance, camshaft, compression, fuel, spark quality, temperature of both inlet air and water, exhaust backpressure, the age of the engine due to ingress of blowby and other things, you can't guess it.
For example, increased turbulance due to efficient squish will mean less total timing and faster flame speeds or later inlet valve closing and early exhaust valve opening will mean a lesser amount of cylinder pressure and a greater amount of timing will be required(at certain points), as can dilution of the charge due to various camshaft grinds. Naturally aspirated engines rarely reach 100% efficiency so often have more total timing than it would if it were 100% efficient ie: 14.7 psi atmospheric filling the cylinder. Whereas at 14.7 psi above atmosphere in a boosted engine the engine is 200% efficient, this would be 115% better than a typical naturally aspirated engine at a typical 85% efficiency.

Joel

TEAMRPM wrote:

Mulisha wrote:

Zac Zec wrote:At the end of the day 95% of the tb42 turbo motors out there are are just a bulk stock motors with turbos hanging of the sides of them. They are NOT specifically built motors which by the sounds of things is what woz is going to do. If that is the case there is NO way in the world i will dispute that 20+deg is not achieveable. But...... as i just said the majority are stockers with turbos and in this configuration 20+ deg i question.
So IMO to say this is would be false.

What needs to be done to the stock motor to be able to handle high boost 20psi ?

Rick.

i have some usefull info for you too...




its a cat fight allready so keep me laughing, pleeeeeeeeese!

Its good entertainment and a lot more interesting to read than some of the other crap on here

Zac Zec wrote:

TEAMRPM wrote:

Mulisha wrote:

Zac Zec wrote:At the end of the day 95% of the tb42 turbo motors out there are are just a bulk stock motors with turbos hanging of the sides of them. They are NOT specifically built motors which by the sounds of things is what woz is going to do. If that is the case there is NO way in the world i will dispute that 20+deg is not achieveable. But...... as i just said the majority are stockers with turbos and in this configuration 20+ deg i question.
So IMO to say this is would be false.

What needs to be done to the stock motor to be able to handle high boost 20psi ?

Rick.

i have some usefull info for you too...




its a cat fight allready so keep me laughing, pleeeeeeeeese!

Its good entertainment and a lot more interesting to read than some of the other crap on here

X2

NutterGQ wrote:This might be useful for you turbo boys, i stumbled across it one night when looking for a compression calculator. It can work out effective compression ratios, intercooler efficiency, turbo outlet temps etc.

Its a good tool to have

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calculations.htm

What would the static compression be on a standard TB42?

Is this the correct calculator?
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compression.htm

EDIT 8.3.1

This sound right?
Boost and Altitude Correction to Compression
You are running 9 PSI of boost at an altitude of 2214 feet. Your motor's static compression is 8.3 :1. At this boost level and altitude your effective compression ratio is 12.94 :1, and without altitude correction your compression ratio would be 13.38 :1.

blackmav wrote:

NutterGQ wrote:This might be useful for you turbo boys, i stumbled across it one night when looking for a compression calculator. It can work out effective compression ratios, intercooler efficiency, turbo outlet temps etc.

Its a good tool to have :idea:

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calculations.htm

What would the static compression be on a standard TB42?

Is this the correct calculator?
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compression.htm

EDIT 8.3.1

This sound right?
Boost and Altitude Correction to Compression
You are running 9 PSI of boost at an altitude of 2214 feet. Your motor's static compression is 8.3 :1. At this boost level and altitude your effective compression ratio is 12.94 :1, and without altitude correction your compression ratio would be 13.38 :1.

What ever is on Jamie's site can be taken as gospel, I don't know anyone else with a 200mph+ step through. Have a look through the whole site, Jamie makes some exelent stuff.