Outer Limits 4x4 Board

marin wrote:

money_killer wrote:why dont uses make a complete new inlet manifold the stock ones are crap does not evenly flow with the entry in the centre.

Look back a few pages and you will see that is exactly what we have done with mine.... the idea of a bolt on 1 is that it will be cheaper....

marin

cool cool have uses got and before and after dyno results yet last time i looked uses didnt....?

Weiner wrote:Saw you last night in Mitcham Matt, how is the cooler liking this weather?

Dam site better than me

matt.mcinnes wrote:In the mean time we have a willing candidate for the bolt on version it seems

Who?? Feel free to chime in...

I'm very keen to see how this puppy goes compared to a new manifold version. Just managed to blow my turbo so BB Garrett going in, bigger ZD30 airbox lid and rebuilt bigger capacity fuel pump. All ready for a Laminova IC!!! Keep up the top work boys.

btw - @ $2500ish i think quality, performance improvements and efficiency of the system is well worth the $$.

benhl wrote:
Who?? Feel free to chime in...

I'm very keen to see how this puppy goes compared to a new manifold version. Just managed to blow my turbo so BB Garrett going in, bigger ZD30 airbox lid and rebuilt bigger capacity fuel pump. All ready for a Laminova IC!!! Keep up the top work boys.

btw - @ $2500ish i think quality, performance improvements and efficiency of the system is well worth the $$.

Benhl I guess you have waited long enough, following this from it's early days, I had a good look at a GU tray 4.2T with a top mount air to air on Monday at Dzltec's, almost managed to burn my hand on the intercooler pre and post both red hot.

There is a vacuum operated thing on one side of the intercooler, will this need to be incorporated into ours for GU's? I think it was on the intake side.

The actual manifold itself looks like Marin's GQ, are their any differences?

If not are you up to bolting one on a GU for testing with pre and post results?

Guinea Pig discount applies.

Thats an EGR valve Matt it recirculates some exhaust back into the intake.

Thats why they get red hot

Z()LTAN wrote:Thats an EGR valve Matt it recirculates some exhaust back into the intake.

Thats why they get red hot

So not essential then

matt.mcinnes wrote:

benhl wrote:
Who?? Feel free to chime in...

I'm very keen to see how this puppy goes compared to a new manifold version. Just managed to blow my turbo so BB Garrett going in, bigger ZD30 airbox lid and rebuilt bigger capacity fuel pump. All ready for a Laminova IC!!! Keep up the top work boys.

btw - @ $2500ish i think quality, performance improvements and efficiency of the system is well worth the $$.

Benhl I guess you have waited long enough, following this from it's early days, I had a good look at a GU tray 4.2T with a top mount air to air on Monday at Dzltec's, almost managed to burn my hand on the intercooler pre and post both red hot.

There is a vacuum operated thing on one side of the intercooler, will this need to be incorporated into ours for GU's? I think it was on the intake side.

The actual manifold itself looks like Marin's GQ, are their any differences?

If not are you up to bolting one on a GU for testing with pre and post results?

Guinea Pig discount applies.

Happy to be a guinea pig, have a great mechanic with Dyno who would be willing to test inc pre and post figures etc etc... in Brisbane though, so if you're happy to post i'm happy to test

WRT the "thing" mine doesn't have EGR it as it's not factory IC, just factory turboed (originally). GU's with factory Top Mount IC do have the EGR however anyone who is looking at this sort of set up really should have that blocked off already anyway (common practice). So therefore not necessary IMHO.

WRT the manifold, i believe the general set up is the same as GQ's - where this would all bolt up to anyway. The only difference is that the GU's have a few more mounting studs on the manifold to the block (so i've been told)? better check... although shouldn't affect what we're talking about.

Mine now has BB centre in hiflowed factory housings, ZD30 airbox lid 3" outlet to 2.5" turbo inlet, not fully dyno'd yet but will probably end up at about 13psi. Also rebuilt fuel pump with larger internals and timing mods (still being done so not sure of final specs) by Highway Diesel, 3" BE dump and straight through 3" Exhaust no muffler. Std diff gears with 35's. will see how we go with final dyno figures - will post as soon as finished.

Let me know about guinea piggin'!!

Cool I will make 2 identical bolt on intercoolers for for the QU and one for the GQ at the same time.

Happy to post.

You will however have to figure out your heat exchanger.

I have pm'd a price.

End caps to suit dash 8 or hose tails?

matt.mcinnes wrote:
There is a vacuum operated thing on one side of the intercooler, will this need to be incorporated into ours for GU's? I think it was on the intake side.

its not the egr vavle itself but a valve to interurpt air flow from the turbo, so that egr can flow.

anyway, if egr is blocked its not needed (egr only present on a 4.2 2003 and up)

sw1 wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:
There is a vacuum operated thing on one side of the intercooler, will this need to be incorporated into ours for GU's? I think it was on the intake side.

its not the egr vavle itself but a valve to interurpt air flow from the turbo, so that egr can flow.

anyway, if egr is blocked its not needed (egr only present on a 4.2 2003 and up)

Either way we can if required incorporated it.

Now should I start a new thread for the generic one, I hate wading through pages and pages of posts or should I just carry this one on?

start a new post for the generic one, there will be alot interested,

work looking awesome as usual,

ozy1 wrote:start a new post for the generic one, there will be alot interested,

work looking awesome as usual,

I agree, now back to cadding up the manifold flange

New Post started

Hi All,

On Sunday i caught up with Matt to check out the intercooler and drive Marin's Mav. I currently own my third GQ TD42 all have had DTS turbo kits fitted, the first two were manual and the current one is auto. All i can say is awesome! this thing flies for a vehicle running 11psi and a standard pump with low egt's. Roll out the bolt on's! I'm getting one

matt.mcinnes wrote:

ozy1 wrote:start a new post for the generic one, there will be alot interested,

work looking awesome as usual,

I agree, now back to cadding up the manifold flange

New Post started

If you need cad help; let me know Matt.

This thread has been very interesting.
Been thinking about the variables in something like this.
Some obvious ones are intake temps, boost, overall intake airflow rates, size of cooler and radiator cores, water/coolant volume in the system, coolant flow rate, fan speed, fan efficiency

You had quite an improvement by adding a second fan to Marin's rig, so I am wondering, have you tried changing the flow rate of the water pump?
Is there an optimum rate of water circulation to enable the most efficient exchange of heat through the radiator?
Davies Craig flows 80L/min?
Be interested to know if say 90 or 100L/min or even 75L/min gave any benefit?
Obviously every car that is given a custom setup is going to have any number of differences, it could be one more thing that can be fine tuned to maximise the gains.

80's_delirious wrote:This thread has been very interesting.
Been thinking about the variables in something like this.
Some obvious ones are intake temps, boost, overall intake airflow rates, size of cooler and radiator cores, water/coolant volume in the system, coolant flow rate, fan speed, fan efficiency

You had quite an improvement by adding a second fan to Marin's rig, so I am wondering, have you tried changing the flow rate of the water pump?
Is there an optimum rate of water circulation to enable the most efficient exchange of heat through the radiator?
Davies Craig flows 80L/min?
Be interested to know if say 90 or 100L/min or even 75L/min gave any benefit?
Obviously every car that is given a custom setup is going to have any number of differences, it could be one more thing that can be fine tuned to maximise the gains.

I run the davies Craig 110, we also have a speed controller for the pump, So something for the future to play with.
We have the intercooler down pat I feel they require 20Ltr Pre min each. The heat exchangers are still ongoing. I would be nice to have a big test budget to play with but then it would all be too easy.

Well Marin has left the building after flying in from Perth he's picked up the Mav and headed home.

I miss it already

Where are the keys for the 40 I need an injection of 182kw of Toyota

I would have thought that a slower water flow would be better as it would give more time for heat transfer to take place, plz correct me if im wrong.

Another idea that might really make this system a kick ass cooler, a slightly small heat exchanger in front of the radiator and a large resivour mounted somewhere under the bonnet. You could get the resivour custom made and put a small S pipe through it and run the low side for the a/c through it to get the water super cold.

ummmmmm F.CK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the torque this thing now has is aweeeeeeeeeesome..... cruising along and boot it and it actually moooooooves now!

but having said that, more boost would be nice

marin

marin wrote:ummmmmm F.CK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the torque this thing now has is aweeeeeeeeeesome..... cruising along and boot it and it actually moooooooves now!

but having said that, more boost would be nice

marin

I would like to thank Marin AKA Ben for been good enough to let us test one on is Mav, can we have it back now please

Well onto the Generic Bolt on version http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic164122.php

matt.mcinnes wrote:I run the davies Craig 110, we also have a speed controller for the pump, So something for the future to play with.
We have the intercooler down pat I feel they require 20Ltr Pre min each. The heat exchangers are still ongoing. I would be nice to have a big test budget to play with but then it would all be too easy.

Have you considered a mechanical water pump, instead of the electric one? Just wondering; it might actually be simpler once the first one was sorted. Those electric pumps generally move a lot less water than a belt-driven one would.

SilverBulletBM wrote:I would have thought that a slower water flow would be better as it would give more time for heat transfer to take place, plz correct me if im wrong.

Nope, more flow equals better cooling. IMHO there would be no downside to getting the water flow as massive as possible here and if a second fan made that much difference, then more pump power might as well.

chimpboy wrote:SNIP

Nope, more flow equals better cooling. IMHO there would be no downside to getting the water flow as massive as possible here and if a second fan made that much difference, then more pump power might as well.

I strongly disagree.... if the water passes through the radiator too fast, it doesn't allow it to have optimum cooling time, hence in extreme cooling applications like drag cars etc, they go for a triple bypass radiator to INCREASE the time that that water is in the radiator for.

marin

marin wrote:

chimpboy wrote:SNIP

Nope, more flow equals better cooling. IMHO there would be no downside to getting the water flow as massive as possible here and if a second fan made that much difference, then more pump power might as well.

I strongly disagree.... if the water passes through the radiator too fast, it doesn't allow it to have optimum cooling time, hence in extreme cooling applications like drag cars etc, they go for a triple bypass radiator to INCREASE the time that that water is in the radiator for.

marin

And no doubt this would also be the case for the intercooler, having the water move at such a rate as to absorb sufficient heat from the intake charge, but not to be so slow that halts the transfer of heat in the W/A intercooling system.

marin wrote:

chimpboy wrote:SNIP

Nope, more flow equals better cooling. IMHO there would be no downside to getting the water flow as massive as possible here and if a second fan made that much difference, then more pump power might as well.

I strongly disagree.... if the water passes through the radiator too fast, it doesn't allow it to have optimum cooling time, hence in extreme cooling applications like drag cars etc, they go for a triple bypass radiator to INCREASE the time that that water is in the radiator for.

marin

This is factually incorrect, but it is a mistake that a lot of people seem to make.

chimpboy wrote:

marin wrote:

chimpboy wrote:SNIP

Nope, more flow equals better cooling. IMHO there would be no downside to getting the water flow as massive as possible here and if a second fan made that much difference, then more pump power might as well.

I strongly disagree.... if the water passes through the radiator too fast, it doesn't allow it to have optimum cooling time, hence in extreme cooling applications like drag cars etc, they go for a triple bypass radiator to INCREASE the time that that water is in the radiator for.

marin

This is factually incorrect, but it is a mistake that a lot of people seem to make.

I'm not questioning you here, but is there some documentation/theory to prove this?

chimpboy wrote:

marin wrote:

chimpboy wrote:SNIP

Nope, more flow equals better cooling. IMHO there would be no downside to getting the water flow as massive as possible here and if a second fan made that much difference, then more pump power might as well.

I strongly disagree.... if the water passes through the radiator too fast, it doesn't allow it to have optimum cooling time, hence in extreme cooling applications like drag cars etc, they go for a triple bypass radiator to INCREASE the time that that water is in the radiator for.

marin

This is factually incorrect, but it is a mistake that a lot of people seem to make.

to what are you saying is incorect that low flow means better cooling as i am anxiouse to hear your theory

cooter wrote: to what are you saying is incorect that low flow means better cooling as i am anxiouse to hear your theory

Faster flow gives better cooling.
It makes the water more turbulent which improves heat transfer.

There will be an optimum flow for heat transfer, how you work that out in this application, I dont know.

Too much flow is as bad as too little flow.

I have experience with commercial Air Conditioning and Hydronics commisioning, which is setting up water flows for Chilled and Heated Water circuits for Air Handling Units.

Dazza

coxy321 wrote:I'm not questioning you here, but is there some documentation/theory to prove this?

I don't want to ruin this excellent thread, but let's say it would be great to see some different temperature readings based on a consistent engine rpm and varied flow rates with that adjustable electric pump.

My guess is that at any rate of flow that the electric pump (or a belt-driven one, which would be cool to use instead) can manage you will get better cooling with more pumping. It will probably top out at some flow level but I am not sure that flow level will be available with the davies craig item.

I am not being negative about the ICs, they are fugging awesome, I am just saying that imho more air flow (fans) more water flow (pump) and more heat exchange surface area (radiator) are going to be good things here.

Bigger coolant reservoir would be good too, within reason.

chimpboy wrote:

coxy321 wrote:I'm not questioning you here, but is there some documentation/theory to prove this?

I don't want to ruin this excellent thread, but let's say it would be great to see some different temperature readings based on a consistent engine rpm and varied flow rates with that adjustable electric pump.

My guess is that at any rate of flow that the electric pump (or a belt-driven one, which would be cool to use instead) can manage you will get better cooling with more pumping. It will probably top out at some flow level but I am not sure that flow level will be available with the davies craig item.

I am not being negative about the ICs, they are fugging awesome, I am just saying that imho more air flow (fans) more water flow (pump) and more heat exchange surface area (radiator) are going to be good things here.

Bigger coolant reservoir would be good too, within reason.

I was just seeing if you had anything like Bens air filter documentation re K&N vs paper filters.

My theory is that the more water you subject to the heat of the intercooler unnecessarily, the quicker you are going to bring up the mean temperature of the coolant. Obviously a flow rate that is too slow is going to be "holding" hot water at the intercooler which then becomes useless.

Also, having a flow rate too fast would impede on the front heat transfer units ability to cool the coolant as it passes through.

I think it would all have to be a compromise - however i also think that there would be an optimum flow rate, something that only testing could find.