Outer Limits 4x4 Board

coxy321 wrote:Also, having a flow rate too fast would impede on the front heat transfer units ability to cool the coolant as it passes through.

The reason this isn't right is that the radiator pulls heat from whatever water is in it, continuously. It's a continuous cycling process so it is simply a question of how much heat the intercooler is producing vs how much heat the radiator is removing. It is more like a duty cycle - coolant is always in the radiator 50% of the time and the intercooler 50% of the time.

The extra factor is that the greater the difference between the coolant and the ambient air, the more efficient the radiator is - heat transfer is proportional to temperature difference.

In theory with perfect flow the optimal cooling comes from infinitely fast water flow, the worst cooling comes from zero water flow. At infinitely fast water flow you would have the intercooler, water, and radiator all at the same optimal temperature. In reality the intercooler is hotter and the radiator is cooler than optimal.

In practice I guess there are some mechanical reasons why this breaks down at really high flow rates but it is nothing to do with how long water is in the intercooler as such, or "having enough time" to take heat out, it would be to do with other factors.

I don't want to spoil this thread, it might be better to discuss this elsewhere.

Its all related to the topic, its trying to get the inlet temps as cools as possible.
Obviously the heat transfer is at its worst with zero flow. But explain why some cars over heat when thermostats are taken out? I still recon the best thing to do would be to get a resivor with an A/C low side pipe running through the middle of it, get the water freezing cold! You wouldnt need such a big heat exchanger in front of the radiator then. Another radiator infront of the standard one on a patrol (with condensor there to) wouldnt exactly be the best thing for patrol with overheating problems.

SilverBulletBM wrote:Its all related to the topic, its trying to get the inlet temps as cools as possible.
Obviously the heat transfer is at its worst with zero flow. But explain why some cars over heat when thermostats are taken out? I still recon the best thing to do would be to get a resivor with an A/C low side pipe running through the middle of it, get the water freezing cold! You wouldnt need such a big heat exchanger in front of the radiator then. Another radiator infront of the standard one on a patrol (with condensor there to) wouldnt exactly be the best thing for patrol with overheating problems.

But then you need to run air con and that draws more power. Or if you are cooling water that takes it away from your air cons ability unless it's deicated. Their are no end of things you can add to cool the coolant but it just complicates things even more.

The water molecules take time to absorb the heat so they need to be in the intercooler long enough to do that. If they flow quickly through the intercooler and the radiator they don't have enough time to absorb or get rid of the heat.There are optimal flow rates that can only be determined by extensive testing. Its not a case of bigger or faster is better.

Originally on the Laminova web site in the contact details where all the email addresses for the heads of the various departments. This is no longer there sadly. But I luckily enough have the email address of their head of the R&D department who I elected to contact, rather than sales or production. Nice guy too and no I won't give it out. :-)

I originally emailed the a link to the build thread for the intercooler in my 40 showing our design, along with the cores we intended to use, he was good enough to give me his opinion and the optimum flow rate for these cores. So this we have down pat I feel and looking at the heat transfer from the intercooler I think we are pretty much on the money here. As I'm sure Laminova did their home work and the information given to be correct.

There is more we can do with the heat exchangers but this is now trial and error as to what is minimum., at the end of the day if the heat exchanger is not big enough the system will suffer with heat soak when over stretched and intercooling efficiency will be lost at some point. So as I keep saying the bigger the better. Bigger holds more water so therefore more heat soak and larger heat exchangers have a greater surface are to get rid of the heat.

The Davies Craig pumps we are using are designed to work with car radiators and have the necessary flow rate for the Laminova cores.

We can play with the pump speed I have a controller, but again your adding an extra complexity that may give little gain.

What I have been noticing over the last few days of having the car is, apart from the fact that it seems to suck heaps more fuel when you give it right foot more often LOL is that the EGT's come down sooooooo quickly after giving it shite.....

Still can't give say anything about prolonged periods of it being on boost, but just an initial observation of regular driving.

marin

marin wrote:What I have been noticing over the last few days of having the car is, apart from the fact that it seems to suck heaps more fuel when you give it right foot more often LOL is that the EGT's come down sooooooo quickly after giving it shite.....

Still can't give say anything about prolonged periods of it being on boost, but just an initial observation of regular driving.

marin

Well you get to tow a loaded trailer today so that should be interesting

SilverBulletBM wrote:But explain why some cars over heat when thermostats are taken out?

Easy, the thermostats provide the restriction needed to get water flowing in the right direction (i.e. through the cooling passages), with no thermostat the water takes the easy way out and water circulation through the engine suffers.

There are a whole lot of tests I'd like to see done on these intercoolers for curiousities sake, but the time and effort required wouldn't make them worthwhile.

Kiwi,

what sort of tests are you talking about? I may be able to do it to mine when it arrives.



Andy

Dzltec wrote:Kiwi,

what sort of tests are you talking about? I may be able to do it to mine when it arrives.



Andy

The two that I'm thinking of at the moment are varying the water flow (as Chimpboy also suggested) and secondly varying the intake temperature and monitoring the change in exhaust temp. Maybe by reducing airflow through the cooling radiator so the cooling water gets hotter and hotter. Boiling would be the limit on that experiment.

Let us know if you think it's worth the time. You're certainly the best equipped to try it.

Marin's final run on the Dyno 1st Run and Last



Also the Pre and Post Map which we were missing a printout from, as you can see pressure drop is negligible.

Now we have dyno numbers so when Marin gets back it's time for some real world figures of daily driving.

Picked up a Digital Thermometer that uses the same K type thermo couples as DzlTec dyno all pretty stock stuff, we will be using the same test location for the sensor too as we did on the dyno runs.

Marin will be testing the intercooler a little more with his new high perormance fuel pump

Seen here on test at Dzltec's

marin wrote:What I have been noticing over the last few days of having the car is, apart from the fact that it seems to suck heaps more fuel when you give it right foot more often LOL is that the EGT's come down sooooooo quickly after giving it shite.....

Still can't give say anything about prolonged periods of it being on boost, but just an initial observation of regular driving.

marin

What sort of figures we talking as ive allways woundered how a tricked up diesel goes on consumption with some hard driving or towing a large load over a long distance ....

matt.mcinnes wrote:Marin will be testing the intercooler a little more with his new high perormance fuel pump

Seen here on test at Dzltec's

When's it getting fitted up???

hoepfully week after next.... I seem to have a stutter at about 3000RPM when booting it, hopefully it is an injector pump issue that will be fixed by the new pump.

Depends on how I go getting the rest of the car together for the Navrun. But fingers crossed.

Awesome! Looks like i'll have to pull my finger out and get mine booked in for a tune so i can have a peek at yours and Andy's truck.

coxy321 wrote:Awesome! Looks like i'll have to pull my finger out and get mine booked in for a tune so i can have a peek at yours and Andy's truck.

Let me know, I live 5 minutes away

Just a little up date on the integrated TD42 I have combined Marin's with some of the things we did with Dzltec's 8 core to come up with something in between, cutting down on the fabrication and therefor cost.

No final price has been set as yet s the parts are been machined.

Se we will end up with a cross between this



and this

any news on this new design?
how far off will they be?
starting to catch the power bug, and having seen 580* on a flat road the other day im thinking more seriously about intercooling it

love ke70 wrote:any news on this new design?
how far off will they be?
starting to catch the power bug, and having seen 580* on a flat road the other day im thinking more seriously about intercooling it

The 2 Proto Types will be ready for welding Friday I have a GU awaiting one here in Melbourne and I think it's a GQ in Perth both are aiming for 200rwkw I believe.

The GU pulled a PWR barrel cooler off due to heat soaking and not coping, 6x8 I believe it was. The heat exchangers are too small for a Diesel, as for the PWR intercooler it's self I can't really say. So I'm not bagging them as I have no data to back it up. With a larger heat exchanger it would perform better but how much so is the question.

awesome, any idea on pricing of these now?

maybe you could PM me some ballparks?
are they the generic bolt on, or cut into the mani?

The new end plates are in Awill4x4 will be welding up the first of the 2 tomorrow. A little 3D CNC to flow the air in at the ends and a single end caps rather than individual ones.





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Should fit nicely into the machined manifold.

some slick looking bits there

80's_delirious wrote:some slick looking bits there

Very slick indeed Tks to Awill's welding.

Dry assembled.



Mocked up.



Coming along.

All done.



Awill4x4 has a couple of pic's of it on the mock head complete I'm sure he will post up.

Here you go Matt.
Cheers Andrew.

That's Andrew,

You will notice the new version allows for the rocker cover to be removed without having to take any of the intercooler off.

Cores are in and one end plate sealed up along with the 3/8 hoes tails.