Formula Suzuki Brainstorm

[grimbo]

SPOA don't get me started on this. Well firstly they are

I actually think a combo of spoa and spua would be great to see as it may open peoples eyes on both side of the fence about their pros and cons.

A 34" max tyre size will mean JTs, centipedes are include which is good as people are able to then use these for other comps and weekending. I think too restrictive guidelines will work against the whole thing as much as full on tube biuggies will.

The majority of people I would imagine would be setting their existing Zuks up pretty much along the sort of guidelines we have discussed, 33ish tyre, lockers, suspension, rockhoppers. As this combo is also great for daily drivers and weekend fun machine. if suddenly you have to either tune this down or get another Zuk entirely it may turn people away.

And my palms are fine now I've discovered Nair

[camo]

maybe two classes are needed

class one:
1.3 na
31" and under
leaf or coil in standard set up with no more than 50mm lift (e.g.no anti wrap bars)
no change to gearing
no lockers
max 2" body lift

idea behind class one is to get people in and competing simple and cheap and only could run standard zuk and still be compeditive

Class two:
any other engine under 2L
35" rubber max
hoppers allowed, gear changing allowed
body lift allowed
lockers allowed
suspenion change allowed, rears to front allowed, anti warp bars allowed, panhards allowed.
standard diffs

Saftey:
all cars to have 6 point cage
fire extighuser
4 point harness
snatch strap
2 shackels
driver and nav to have helmets, shoes,long pants, long shirts


as i see it anything more extreme than this should be able to hold its own in bigger comps E.G hilux, dana diffs vechicles but still caters for people like greg.

also class one if fitted with a cams spec roll cage would be eligble for off-road racing, which means you could have a cheap rig that you could get heaps of driving/racing events from.

[greg]

i was tossing up the idea of not having it tied to the chassis to see what people think

obviously you believe it should be connected to the chassis and i do too; but let's see what other people think?

I think a lot of suzuki roll cages would only go to the floor, and this is probably a set up that is going to work fine for most rolls - when we built mine though we built it will the idea that it would be spending a lot of time on its roof and we wanted it to last for quite a while.

[greg]

we really should speak to carlton and cal and head up to berridale for a looksee.

What's the importance of this property / area NAM?

Does this type of event have to be held on Private Property?

If not, i reckon with sensible (and cunning) use of witches hats you could quickly turn the easiest of tracks into the hardest of courses - which would be more than enough for cars built to the specs being discussed in this thread.

Note: my understanding is that if you do not class the event as a "race", it is much easier to run it whereever you want.

[grimbo]

Classes = confusion and bickering and scrutineering
The more specs and regulations you add the harder it is to control.

The beauty of the Zuks is that you can get to a fairly well setup vehicle for a good price.

A zuk on 31-32 s with a welded rear, 2" body lift cut guards and a series 1 rockhopper isn't that far behind something like mine or gregs car. It comes down to driver ability. With a well setup vehicle a degree of complacency creeps in and you can find yourself deeper in trouble because of the capability whereas a less setup vehicle requires constant attention and thus judgement can be more objective.

Also CAMS spec cages can get awfully $$$ without any added benefit. CAMS spec cages are built to withstand high speed high energy crashes whereas this sort of cage is not required. Don't get me wrong they mustr be safe but going the CAMS spec route will give you a safe cage but also a very expensive cage that probably doesn;t need to be

[N*A*M]

there should be no points awarded for finishing quickly - to remove any resemblance to a "time trial". there would be a maximum time limit, but there is no gain in finishing quickly. it would basically be scored on the gates that you go through cleanly, minus stop and reversing penalties.

i still think my first list of rules was pretty good and with a bit of tweaking would be suitable. body lift, suspension mounts can be moved maximum 50mm, standard seat belt, fire extinguisher, etc...

berridale seems to have some wicked rock terrain. what other areas would there be where you could run multiple stages in a smallish area with a lot of rock variety?

[camo]

not saying that people need to have a cam spec but if they do then they can race at there events aswell as this.

[grimbo]

NAM I agree. To aid in getting this running having it based as a trials event where scores are based on getting through a series of gates rather than speed or time based makes insurance a lot easier.

The single make allows for help ($$$) maybe from Suzuki Australia.
Everyone would need to join an affiliated club, preferably their local Suzuki club. This is an easier option to gain access to club insurance and help from associations than setting a new club up.

With vehicles being road registed and insurable will also make this a lot easier to run.

[grimbo]

Another thing in regards to clubs etc. The formula Suzuki would then need to be run seperate to the ongoing club events. Clubs would need to cater for their members. The event would basically be for club members from around Australia, not a club member (doesn't have to be a Suzuki club just an affliated club) no competing.

[greg]

berridale seems to have some wicked rock terrain. what other areas would there be where you could run multiple stages in a smallish area with a lot of rock variety?

You're kidding right?

Gembrook under the powerlines... you could easily run something there due to the following reasons:
1. main access tracks are available
2. all challenges run off the main access track
3. everything is within a few km's of each other
4. close to melbourne (30 minutes from ferntree gully area)

I think that with the use of some witches hats you could easily set up all terrain to any degree of difficulty - from drivable, to completely un-drivable.

You could easily set up between 5 and 10 different courses under the powerlines with no problems at all with terrian from rutts to rocks to bogholes...

Sorry Nam, but if it's rocks that you want to drive - i think you might be biting off more than you can chew - for a few reasons:
1. getting everyone so far from melbourne won't happen easily
2. driving rocks, and setting heavy limitations on vehicles won't mix
3. you are going to have a lot more issues with breakages / rollovers if you try to run stock(ish) cars on rocks.

[grimbo]

But you can't really run an event on public roads which rules Gembrook out. Unfortunatley it has to be run on private land to be a goer. Remember greg this is also not a Victorian only concern.

Beridale seems to be a good property because there is a lot of terrain which allows for a huge variety in lines to be placed. Weribbee potenially could be made to work. I know Cheezy has been in negotiations with a few Vic property owners for event usage so there maybe something out of that.

There is 4x4 park that might be happening in Warrugul. NSW way there is the areas that Tuff truck, woodpecker etc and QLD has its 4x4 parks. What we need is access to some properties with a variety of terrian not just rock.

If you look at the English 4x4 trials it is all based around short sections of varying terrian like side slopes, gullies, trwnches, mud then throw in cross axle logs, rocks etc.

[N*A*M]

i have a long term view with this being bigger than just the small handful of zookers in melbourne. i'm sure the NSW and QLD guys would be keen to participate as well.

i also doubt we could run this on public property.

[greg]

So how do they run the simex night persuit event through bunyip state forest then?

I understand that you want it to be Aus wide (or at least bigger than just melbourne), but i think it's more realistic to think that each state would have to be run seperately and then you could hold annual / 6 monthly comps where everyone gets together somewhere. I just think the effort involved in making this happen right accross the country in one foul swoop is going to be excessive.

[grimbo]

yes it can be done on public roads but it will be harder and harder to do so. Also Victoria is probably the only place to do so at the moment.

I agree that to try and do it nationally at first willl be hard but I think developing it with a national slant from the start will make it easier once it comes to doing a national event. If everthing is done with a single goal that develops evenly (as evenly as possibe) it will have a better future than each state doing whatever and trying to mesh those ideas into one.

[N*A*M]

so basically from here onwards, we need to organise an round 0 around melbourne to test the feasability of the idea.

we should get a few modded trucks plus a few more standardish trucks to see how they would go.

we will keep it hush hush and low key while we do the research and development of the comp until we can establish some firm rules and solve the liability/venue issues.

[grimbo]

yep i reckon that is the way to go. Which means I really need to pull my finger out and get the Zuk on the road.

[greg]

yep i reckon that is the way to go. Which means I really need to pull my finger out and get the Zuk on the road.

what for - we've already worked out that it breaks all the rules

[greg]

Classes = confusion and bickering and scrutineering
The more specs and regulations you add the harder it is to control.

The beauty of the Zuks is that you can get to a fairly well setup vehicle for a good price.

A zuk on 31-32 s with a welded rear, 2" body lift cut guards and a series 1 rockhopper isn't that far behind something like mine or gregs car. It comes down to driver ability. With a well setup vehicle a degree of complacency creeps in and you can find yourself deeper in trouble because of the capability whereas a less setup vehicle requires constant attention and thus judgement can be more objective.

I still think this kind of build up is excessive for the formula suzuki car.

I'd like to see it more like NASCAR (or at least, as little as i know of this), where everyone has the exact same car (and we set this at a very attainable mark)...

example:
1. no suspension changes
2. no engine changes
3. no gearing changes
4. no tyre size changes (once you change tyre size you have to allow gearing changes too).
5. rear diff lock allowed (means you can run some more difficult stuff).

Everyone on a completely level playing field (kind of)...

I realise this will completely mark cars like mine, grimbos, and even Nam's out of the event, but it will open it up to being completely enterable for people who have no experience and no money.

This way you could pick up entrants from people who are (say for example) in the Landcruiser club, who would rather spend 2K on a beater for fun, then damage their pride and joy cruisers...

Ok, you can have a spotter, but they cannot get out of the car.

Minimal is good.

Less is more.

Keeping things cheap and affordable = more competitors wanting to give it ago (and hopefully more spare parts for me ).

[droopypete]

Ok lets go then, 1st event will be the day after tomorow, who is in?
Peter.

[N*A*M]

i have a standard car!

round 0 - saturday 27th - gembrook

[droopypete]

oops Nam the gambler has called my bluff, and I only have a pair of 3s (I can hear Kenny Rodgers playing in the background)
Peter.

[droopypete]

it will open it up to being completely enterable for people who have no experience and no money.
Less is more.

But it will force people who allready have have a perfectly good, modded zook to buy another one this will deter a lot of people.

Most people who buy zooks in the first place buy them because they are one of the cheapest 4x4s out there, it is only later that they find they are one of the most capable as well, my point is that Mr 100 series Land Cruiser would not think twice about putting $2000 worth of air lockers in his $80,000 rig but if Mr Zook did the same thing he might be doubling the cost of his car!

I take my own situation, under the curent proposal, I am out, , as I have a 1.6, I am in the bad position of having to build another car that will more than likely be very similar to what I allready have, but with a 1.3, add rego and insurance and this is no longer a cheap form of motorsport for me or Greg or Graham or Guy and a heap of others as well.
I am not saying set the rules so I can run, I am saying dont make them so limiting that they proclude all the guys that own zooks already from competing uless they go to expence of setting up another more basic rig.
Peter.

[redzook]

I take my own situation, under the curent proposal, I am out, , as I have a 1.6, I am in the bad position of having to build another car that will more than likely be very similar to what I allready have, but with a 1.3, add rego and insurance and this is no longer a cheap form of motorsport for me or Greg or Graham or Guy and a heap of others as well.
I am not saying set the rules so I can run, I am saying dont make them so limiting that they proclude all the guys that own zooks already from competing uless they go to expence of setting up another more basic rig.
Peter.

we have a winner

[redzook]

we really should speak to carlton and cal and head up to berridale for a looksee.

Nam thats a good idea as it will get alot more sydney, newcastle zookers
intrested

cos it isnt right down at melbourne. well i dont think

[greg]

I take my own situation, under the curent proposal, I am out, , as I have a 1.6, I am in the bad position of having to build another car that will more than likely be very similar to what I allready have, but with a 1.3, add rego and insurance and this is no longer a cheap form of motorsport for me or Greg or Graham or Guy and a heap of others as well.
I am not saying set the rules so I can run, I am saying dont make them so limiting that they proclude all the guys that own zooks already from competing uless they go to expence of setting up another more basic rig.
Peter.

we have a winner

Sorry folks, that's exactly what i am suggesting doing.

Think of it as sacrificing a few, to achieve the inclusion of many.

[droopypete]

I take my own situation, under the curent proposal, I am out, , as I have a 1.6, I am in the bad position of having to build another car that will more than likely be very similar to what I allready have, but with a 1.3, add rego and insurance and this is no longer a cheap form of motorsport for me or Greg or Graham or Guy and a heap of others as well.
I am not saying set the rules so I can run, I am saying dont make them so limiting that they proclude all the guys that own zooks already from competing uless they go to expence of setting up another more basic rig.
Peter.

we have a winner

Sorry folks, that's exactly what i am suggesting doing.

Think of it as sacrificing a few, to achieve the inclusion of many.

Boo Hiss, down with Greg, Down with Greg.
Peter.

[greg]

But it will force people who allready have have a perfectly good, modded zook to buy another one this will deter a lot of people.

Most people who buy zooks in the first place buy them because they are one of the cheapest 4x4s out there, it is only later that they find they are one of the most capable as well

I agree with what you are thinking pete, but another point worth considering for the people who are thinking that they will use their existing suzuki (which is also their daily driver) - once you put a roll cage into it, hit a few trees / rocks / ruts with it, and roll it once or twice - i don't think it is realistic to think that you are going to be able to continue using it as a daily driver - it will drive like a dog, rattle like a babies toy and be pulled over pretty soon too.

Big Steve's hardtop is proof that a sierra only takes a few flops onto it's side (of various degrees of force) before the whole body is written off.

I'm not saying that it won't hurt people who already have super-set-up cars if you set the bar below their level - but what i am saying is that it is unrealistic to think that people who are playing on a budget with thier one and only cars will be able to compete and still keep that one and only car on the road.

This is why i keep pushing the idea of keeping it all low budget, and minimal mod's... i still think it will be cheaper (for everyone except for the few that already have their cars beyond the ruled bar)...

[redzook]

did steves have any protection to the body?

i will have an exo shorty that should protect the important parts windscreen, roofline

yeh i will get dinted and scratches else where but u live with them

[greg]

did steves have any protection to the body?

i will have an exo shorty that should protect the important parts windscreen, roofline

yeh i will get dinted and scratches else where but u live with them

big steve had no body protection installed.

[N*A*M]

there are quite a few cars with non 1.3L engines which gives them a much greater advantage. all the suspension and gearing mods aside, if you have anything better than the g13a, you're miles ahead. running a formula make comp with different engines better cars defeats the purpose of the whole thing.

i would love to make the rules really broad in terms of tyre size, suspension and gearing. but i really think everyone should be running the g13a.