Outer Limits 4x4 Board

HAHAHA, yeah monster trucks are cool.

A COMP will NEVER succeed if there are NO COMPETITORS and more importantly NO SPECTATORS!!!!

The aim is to get MORE people to compete rather than sitting on the sidelines wishing they could. The more spectators we can get to compete the bigger the comp scene will get and the bigger tha sport gets and then there will be more open class trucks.

POS if you have a better way of getting more peolpe out there competing on a budget we are all ears.
SAM

overkill wrote:A COMP will NEVER succeed if there are NO COMPETITORS and more importantly NO SPECTATORS!!!!

The aim is to get MORE people to compete rather than sitting on the sidelines wishing they could. The more spectators we can get to compete the bigger the comp scene will get and the bigger tha sport gets and then there will be more open class trucks.

POS if you have a better way of getting more peolpe out there competing on a budget we are all ears.
SAM

Like i said before!

DON'T hold back, GO FOR IT!

I am just putting another side to the discussion forward, and also like i said earlier, This is just my views and does not meen jack!

POS if I thought your oppinion didn't mean jack then I wouldn't have put it up there for discussion and ask your oppinion for a better option.
SAM

The only other option (which is also flawed) is to do the same set-up in regards to building a frame and selling it in stage form.

Example.

Stage 1. Custom tube frame. X amount of $$$

Stage 2. Custom tube frame with Leaf springs. X amount of $$$$

Stage 3. Custom tube frame with Coils. X amount of $$$$

Stage 4. Custom Tube frame with Leaf/Coils and XYZ engine, drivetrain and diffs.

and so on!

That allows a HUGE array of people with Different amounts of mechanical skill and $$$ to get into the sport. It will also allow more variety as towards engine choice etc etc.

They could then enter in the NORMAL comp, competing against the BEST in the state/country.

This way there might be 20 of your frames out there but they all (or a majority ) will be slightly difference in power, weight, height and finished apperence.

You could even sell different cut down bonnets to suit your frame so people can buy something different. Similar to what Jason Paule (Twisted Customs) is doing in the states!

Sam
The idea sounds good but this forum might not be the best place to accurately gauge interest in the class as there would be quite a few people here who could probably build a reasonable open class vehicle for less than 15G with what they already have.
I would hazard a guess that if you made the class run on set key design parameters, ie wheelbase, suspension type, tyre size and let people build what they can from what theyve got AND still provide your chassis for those who cant or dont want to build as a backbone/example of what is the archtype you may draw more competitors?
Maybe leaving your parameters more open in areas like overall weight, power to weight, track width or whatever might add the element of difference that people are looking for?
I might be missing the whole point of formula racing of course.......
Making it more accesible in terms of entry fees and locations would be a good

my .02

Cheers
Daryl

Both the last 2 post have some good points to adress. If we build the chassis as a set design for the class people can buy it it any form from chassis only to turn key. If others want it in different designs then that is fine but they wouldn't be eligible for that class but that doesn't mean they can't build the chassis up for the open class.
I hope that made sense.
I just think that if we stick to one formular for the class then we have more controll over keeping the cost down and competitiveness up.
I am all for buggies been built by any or everyone and if that happens then I guess we will have to make classes as stated. But for us to make jigs to make 3-4 different chassis is just to hard.
SAM

ok for starters if we r gonna build our own buggies we r gonna need a book on rules and guide lines justlike all the other motor sports like rallies, and touring cars i agree for just the 1 class till things get bigger and beauitful more publicity etc.. tv coverage would be awesome, i think ur on a winner sam , we dont have alot of comps here in the west only 1 just recently which drew alot of crowds, you got to crawl before u can walk! im sure i could find sum intrested parties over here that would be interested in holding a couple of rounds! ii for one would be very keen to build sumthin of my own for such an event!!

I think the idea of a formula series is great as per the discussion going on in the Suzuki forum. However the buggy concept i don't think will work due to the cost of building a vehicle that can only be used on private property. in this day and age the prospect of being able to run more comps with all the insurance crap is unlikely.

If the vehicles are street legal and road worthy getting insurance and permission to run an event is more likely. Sinking $15k into a rig that can only be driven a handful of times compared to a $15k rig that can be used for comps and general 4wheeling I'd imagine would be more appealing to many people. (mind you I've probably sunk $15k into mine and it only seems to get driven a handful of times in a year too )

My Opinion

think of it as V8's..Holden VS Ford

How bored are you when One brand is always winning ?? I know I get sick of it.

But at the same time I love the idea of cheap buggy's to compete in...but I think there needs to be at least 2 brands of buggy's.

DAS wrote:My Opinion

think of it as V8's..Holden VS Ford

How bored are you when One brand is always winning ?? I know I get sick of it.

But at the same time I love the idea of cheap buggy's to compete in...but I think there needs to be at least 2 brands of buggy's.

Thats a way better analagy, I ment what he said

Thoughts from a newby...

I'm not overly familiar with the 4x4 competition scene anywhere, only what I read in mags.

The basic concept of "one make" works for me - restrict the vehicles so skill becomes the decider - teams need to try something different to get ahead. Different lines, drive faster here/slower there.

I understand that spectators really allow a sport to get ahead, but there can be no competition without competitors, and I've competed in sports which draw bugger-all spectators, but lots of competitors - admittedly the prizes don't allow anyone to retire, but what is the competition all about? Do the competitors want fame and fortune, or fun and good drinking companions (at the end of the day, of course.) Get competitors in first, then work out how to attract the spectators.

Does this new class have to be out on its own - can it run as a sub-class within existing competitions? Everyone competes in mud drags one month, off to a Tuff Truck next month, Winch Challenge the month after? If it attracts more entrants will existing organisers go for it?

I'll be quiet now...

Scott

For those people concerned that the buggy can only be used in the one make series it is basically going to be built to similar specs that mine and matts zooks are built to. To make it outlaw class class competitive probably wouldnt require any mods at all, larger tyres would be the only thing i would change on it to run in outlaw.

Sounds like more and more people are getting behind this

They key to this will be the formula. I've been involved in restricted racing classes on tarmac in the past. Inevitably the rules will favour someone. Probably the wealthy, but it could also be those who happened to make a lucky choice when they built the rig.

So don't spare the effort getting the formula checked for loopholes and advantages. Don't put in restrictions that are impossible to monitor. For example, you may say no more than 2mm over bore on the cylinders. But how will you check this? If you wanted to lift my heads I'd tell you where to put your calipers! So the rule disadvantages the honest and creates an easy benefit for the cheats.

If you don't restrict mods someone will turn up with a mega $$ computer controlled suspension setup with 4 wheel steering traction control and fiddle brakes. Yet if you restrict the mods too much you can also prevent innovation - the key to the success of the formula.

I don't envy our task. There is a lot more to running a championship than making a really cool buggy.

Steve

i think this idea of old sammy's is 2 build a field of buggys that r slightly less capable than his own so that he can b an outright winner

i was just reading the little message under your avi and it all just clicked

I think the only drama with aqllowing different driveline configurations is that the price would start to blow out. Maybe run a few different buggy designs with the same running gear.
SAM

I think the first step to this becoming a reallity is to build 1-2 buggies for all to see. I think the criticks would be suprised at how capable and awsum they will be.I need to make one for the media to see in action before they will commit to anything. So we will build them and as I said have an open day for all to see.We need as many buggies built as possible to get this happening so if people are serious and keen contact me and I can fill you in on what is in the pipeline and the first 5 buggies would be sponsord by us to help get the series started.
And as Mick said these buggies would only need minor changes to run in the Outlaw class comps so you would end up with a comp buggy that could enter a lot more events than just one built for the outlaw class.
SAM

We will be starting the first prototype on Monday so I will post photo's and info as we go.
SAM

brilliant.....look forward to seeing what you have in mind....

I'm keen Sam as i have been trying to see if nissan drive train will fit a sprintcar chassis the formula will be gr8

Andy

overkill wrote:We will be starting the first prototype on Monday so I will post photo's and info as we go.
SAM

Excellent - this is what we need - people to actually get in there and make things happen.

If you opened up the formula to allow linked rear suspensions (I really dont like leafs in the rear) then I would almost make one myself to your class specs to compete.

Why dont you just use the zuk axles?? It would have to make it a lot cheaper to build and put more emphesis (sp) on driver ability in terms of driving to not break stuff. Would also make running smaller tyres a possibility to be more competitive. IMO 35s on hylux axles with a zuk motor you will be able to drive like an idiot and never break abnything and this will take away from driver ability. With weaker axles it will bring more ways to be more competitive (as will linked rear suspensions). Should also leave tyre size totally open so that you get more variation in vehicle performance (ie zuk axles on 37s driving carefully VS zuk axles on 31s giving it everything its got)

Totally zuke based, linked rears, open tyre size and Ill be in. It would give lots of variation and be cheap and be a lot of fun. Would also open up the wheelbase as well cause there will be lots of compromises here. Just control the things that keeps the costs down and doesent allow money to totally dominate (like axle strength, horsepower and gearing)

Sam

Sam, I reckon the idea of running them on standard zuk axles is excellent.
It would make it very cheap for people to enter. And like you said....if you want to drive on 37's then go for it, but you will most probably break stuff....32's and you might also DNF but would not be a mechanical failure, rather a clearance issue....

This would be a good level playing field....

Isn't that the idea of "formula" motorsport limit engne specs and tyres etc so as all players are on the same level.

Strange Rover wrote:

overkill wrote:We will be starting the first prototype on Monday so I will post photo's and info as we go.
SAM

Excellent - this is what we need - people to actually get in there and make things happen.

If you opened up the formula to allow linked rear suspensions (I really dont like leafs in the rear) then I would almost make one myself to your class specs to compete.

Why dont you just use the zuk axles?? It would have to make it a lot cheaper to build and put more emphesis (sp) on driver ability in terms of driving to not break stuff. Would also make running smaller tyres a possibility to be more competitive. IMO 35s on hylux axles with a zuk motor you will be able to drive like an idiot and never break abnything and this will take away from driver ability. With weaker axles it will bring more ways to be more competitive (as will linked rear suspensions). Should also leave tyre size totally open so that you get more variation in vehicle performance (ie zuk axles on 37s driving carefully VS zuk axles on 31s giving it everything its got)

Totally zuke based, linked rears, open tyre size and Ill be in. It would give lots of variation and be cheap and be a lot of fun. Would also open up the wheelbase as well cause there will be lots of compromises here. Just control the things that keeps the costs down and doesent allow money to totally dominate (like axle strength, horsepower and gearing)

Sam

Sam I hear where you are coming from but I might as well be making outlaw buggies.If we use Zook running gear and hilux axles then there will be very few breakages thus cheaper to run and the extra track of the lux axle will help.
I am hoping this class will be used as a stepping stone into the full blown outlaw class.
I know you don't like leaves but I think setting up a leaf sprung car is easier and cheaper than a linked setup. For beginners I think this would be better.
If the class takes of then we can look at allowing different mods and maybe split and run 2 classes I guess it will come down to how many people get behind what I am trying to get going.
SAM

overkill wrote:Sam I hear where you are coming from but I might as well be making outlaw buggies.If we use Zook running gear and hilux axles then there will be very few breakages thus cheaper to run and the extra track of the lux axle will help.
I am hoping this class will be used as a stepping stone into the full blown outlaw class.
I know you don't like leaves but I think setting up a leaf sprung car is easier and cheaper than a linked setup. For beginners I think this would be better.
If the class takes of then we can look at allowing different mods and maybe split and run 2 classes I guess it will come down to how many people get behind what I am trying to get going.
SAM

Yea - fair enough. I guess Im just getting ahead of myself. And I hear what you are saying about starting off with the hilux axles making the class cheaper by having minimal breakage and I guess the side benefit is that from this spec it is an easy stepping stone to outlaw class.

And a leaf rear - I guess that does make a lot of sence cause there is a shiat load more work (and $$) in linking it out. Just bolting in a stock hilux rear does seem a lot easier and their are some bloody good anti wrap bar designs geting around (thats if these are allowed??)

Still keen!!

Sam

Strange Rover wrote:

overkill wrote:Sam I hear where you are coming from but I might as well be making outlaw buggies.If we use Zook running gear and hilux axles then there will be very few breakages thus cheaper to run and the extra track of the lux axle will help.
I am hoping this class will be used as a stepping stone into the full blown outlaw class.
I know you don't like leaves but I think setting up a leaf sprung car is easier and cheaper than a linked setup. For beginners I think this would be better.
If the class takes of then we can look at allowing different mods and maybe split and run 2 classes I guess it will come down to how many people get behind what I am trying to get going.
SAM

Yea - fair enough. I guess Im just getting ahead of myself. And I hear what you are saying about starting off with the hilux axles making the class cheaper by having minimal breakage and I guess the side benefit is that from this spec it is an easy stepping stone to outlaw class.

And a leaf rear - I guess that does make a lot of sence cause there is a shiat load more work (and $$) in linking it out. Just bolting in a stock hilux rear does seem a lot easier and their are some bloody good anti wrap bar designs geting around (thats if these are allowed??)

Still keen!!

Sam

Anti wrap bars and spring rates and brands are open.
SAM

These are the specs so far.

SUZUKI 1.3 ENGINE
ZOOK 5 SPEED
ZOOK TRANSFER
HYDRO OR POWER STEER.
MUST HAVE 2 SEATS.
HILUX DIFFS FRONT AND REAR
REAR HILUX SPRINGS FRONT AND REAR
LIMIT 35 INCH TYRES.
95 INCH WHEELBASE
HARNESSES
BRAKE LIGHT
HEADLIGHTS


Things that are open.

ANTI WRAP BARS
LOCKERS
DIFF RATIOS
TRANSFER RATIOS
TYRE WIDTH
RIM SIZE
SPRING HEIGHT,RATE AND BRAND.
WHEEL TRACK


I will add to these specs as we get furthe down the track.
SAM

when you say 'open', do you mean people can do what they want in those areas?

robbie wrote:when you say 'open', do you mean people can do what they want in those areas?

Yes