Outer Limits 4x4 Board

bad_religion_au wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:I would never put a petrol in a 4wd. Especially if it was intended for anything other than shopping.

Here's one idea.
http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=128585

i'd never own a diesel 4wd again unless i was setting up for the simpson desert or something. day in day out, LPG is cheaper to run, cheaper to service, and your not stuck trying to climb a hill or clearing your tyres out because the old diesel hasn't got the mumbo to do it

My diesel can squeal the back wheels in second gear. Pretty good for a 2.3t full time 4wd. Especially for a truck and engine all made in 1985.
I've got more torque at 1500rpm than you'll have at 4000. Get 800km from an 80L tank and can fill it up in the middle of a desert.
The LPG price in Aus is an anomaly, out of line with the rest of the world. It will even out, only question is when?

My engine takes about $40 worth of filters and 5L of oil every 10,000km. How is your one cheaper?

bad_religion_au wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:I would never put a petrol in a 4wd. Especially if it was intended for anything other than shopping.

Here's one idea.
http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=128585

i'd never own a diesel 4wd again unless i was setting up for the simpson desert or something. day in day out, LPG is cheaper to run, cheaper to service, and your not stuck trying to climb a hill or clearing your tyres out because the old diesel hasn't got the mumbo to do it

He's right you know

It all come down to one simple question.

Which has the best exhaust note.

I think we all know the answer to that.

Vineboy wrote:It all come down to one simple question.

Which has the best exhaust note.

I think we all know the answer to that.

Turbo whistle all the way.
I know you won't agree. But I don't care.

KiwiBacon wrote:

bad_religion_au wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:I would never put a petrol in a 4wd. Especially if it was intended for anything other than shopping.

Here's one idea.
http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=128585

i'd never own a diesel 4wd again unless i was setting up for the simpson desert or something. day in day out, LPG is cheaper to run, cheaper to service, and your not stuck trying to climb a hill or clearing your tyres out because the old diesel hasn't got the mumbo to do it

My diesel can squeal the back wheels in second gear. Pretty good for a 2.3t full time 4wd. Especially for a truck and engine all made in 1985.
I've got more torque at 1500rpm than you'll have at 4000. Get 800km from an 80L tank and can fill it up in the middle of a desert.
The LPG price in Aus is an anomaly, out of line with the rest of the world. It will even out, only question is when?

My engine takes about $40 worth of filters and 5L of oil every 10,000km. How is your one cheaper?

mine takes 8 dollars worth of filters and the same in oil every 10,000km. BUT i don't have to worry about injectors etc when it comes to a major service. plus look at parts availability and price? how much for a head gasket, crank, or head for your diesel? head gaskets for the ford motor in the 40 are 25 bucks, and i can pick up a complete running engine for under 100.

how much torque you got at 1500rpm??? be interested to know as both the petrols i own have their peaks between 1500 and 1800. not to mention the turbo setup floating around for the ford motor in the 40 that gives 1000nm torque (that's right 3 zero's) at 2000rpm. tried and tested in a cortina over here in SA.

sure LPG prices will rise, but so will diesel prices. there will always be demand for diesel driving up the price (heavy equipment and transport industry). there is never going to be such a thing as a free lunch.

bad_religion_au wrote: mine takes 8 dollars worth of filters and the same in oil every 10,000km. BUT i don't have to worry about injectors etc when it comes to a major service. plus look at parts availability and price? how much for a head gasket, crank, or head for your diesel? head gaskets for the ford motor in the 40 are 25 bucks, and i can pick up a complete running engine for under 100.

how much torque you got at 1500rpm??? be interested to know as both the petrols i own have their peaks between 1500 and 1800. not to mention the turbo setup floating around for the ford motor in the 40 that gives 1000nm torque (that's right 3 zero's) at 2000rpm. tried and tested in a cortina over here in SA.

sure LPG prices will rise, but so will diesel prices. there will always be demand for diesel driving up the price (heavy equipment and transport industry). there is never going to be such a thing as a free lunch.

8 dollars worth of oil? That's about 2 litres. Methinks you're exaggerating a little.

Given my engine has done at least 400,000km and still has the original crank and head, the prices of these parts aren't known to me. Did you price them because they're known trouble parts in your engine?

I think I've got in the low 400's for Nm. Enough to spin all four wheels on gravel to about 80km/h in third.
1000Nm is quite impressive. I imagine there's a years salary in acheiving that. Given you've priced a head and crank already I assumed you'd be changing those.

The LPG price in Aus is artificially low. When the price realigns (it did here several years back) the economics quickly reverse and you've got one of the most expensive vehicles to run anywhere.
LPG here is currently $2.45 per kg. That's about $1.20 per litre.

KiwiBacon wrote:
8 dollars worth of oil? That's about 2 litres. Methinks you're exaggerating a little.

Given my engine has done at least 400,000km and still has the original crank and head, the prices of these parts aren't known to me. Did you price them because they're known trouble parts in your engine?

I think I've got in the low 400's for Nm. Enough to spin all four wheels on gravel to about 80km/h in third.
1000Nm is quite impressive. I imagine there's a years salary in acheiving that. Given you've priced a head and crank already I assumed you'd be changing those.

i meant the same AMOUNT of oil as you quoted in your post.

the head gasket and crank i priced (aftermarket good stuff) to cope with the turbo boost/1000nm torque. the standard head gasket i priced to give me a comparison point to the race series head gasket.

the motor in it has 300 000 and hasn't been pulled down. i had one in my falcon that saw 400 000 before the car rusted around it.

the head i've never priced, but have done on several occasions for my old diesel bus, but i have got 3 of the petrol motors sitting here (all running with good compression), all for less than 100 bucks, which i KNOW is less than a second hand diesel head.

there isn't a years salary in that turbo setup. it's actually a back yard jobbie, using an off the shelf common turbo, and a custom intake (not too expensive to knock up). the spendy part is the computer to control timing, but a simple dizzy regraph is good for at least 500nm on a similar setup.

bad_religion_au wrote: there isn't a years salary in that turbo setup. it's actually a back yard jobbie, using an off the shelf common turbo, and a custom intake (not too expensive to knock up). the spendy part is the computer to control timing, but a simple dizzy regraph is good for at least 500nm on a similar setup.

To get 1000Nm torque you'd be pushing about what, 20psi into it?
There's a whole slew of internal mods to make a NA engine cope with that, lowering compression for a start, then creating a spark in an atmosphere that dense, probably cam change and valve springs to prevent exhaust backpressure blowing back past the exhaust valves.

My biggest problem with LPG is the space it takes up. Turns a big car into a small one.

Is that 1000Nm @ the wheels as measured on a dyno? That's a shitload of torque - i'd be surprised to see that measurement at the engine from an internally stock motor. A mate with a decent turbo setup on a 4.0L ford got a reading of ~750Nm as measured at the wheels.

The reason i question this is because of the number of people who come away with a dyno graph with spastic torque measurements and don't realize how it can be multiplied by the gearing.
(somebody please correct me if my understanding of dyno torque readings is way off)


As for the original question, my suggestion would be a 12HT. Good motor and no hassles.

-Stu

dogbreath_48 wrote:As for the original question, my suggestion would be a 12HT. Good motor and no hassles.

-Stu

coul be better idea make a poll ..

My vote goes for 12H-T

This is my engine that I have just stuck in my 62...(went from petrol to diesel) anyhow its a 12ht...! (Excuse the intake pipe it's only there cos of the body lift), I honestly don't know how much boost this thing is running but it sounds awesome and the throttle response is like dynamite. The engine has done about 40k = virgin.
Ben
(There isn't much of an exhaust on it in the film)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1VbvZYIKU0

dogbreath_48 wrote:Is that 1000Nm @ the wheels as measured on a dyno? That's a shitload of torque - i'd be surprised to see that measurement at the engine from an internally stock motor. A mate with a decent turbo setup on a 4.0L ford got a reading of ~750Nm as measured at the wheels.

The reason i question this is because of the number of people who come away with a dyno graph with spastic torque measurements and don't realize how it can be multiplied by the gearing.
(somebody please correct me if my understanding of dyno torque readings is way off)


As for the original question, my suggestion would be a 12HT. Good motor and no hassles.

-Stu

good point here, not all dynos read the same- even on the same day...
Some dyno print out that I have seen show huge torque, That I once I have gone for a run in the car is totally unrealistic...

My TD42 running 22psi is currrently putting out 510nm at the fly wheel, this is then timesed by diff ratio of 4.11 or something which would give around 2096nm at the treads... if it was explainned to me right ( the diesel fuel injection guys eyes nearly fell out at this reading though)

Saying that, I would go 12ht TweaKED... this engine would produce more torque that a TD42 but would not spin as hard.

further.... if petrols made so much torque (boosted or not), why dont we see them in heavy earth moving applications??


daniels

DanielS wrote:
further.... if petrols made so much torque (boosted or not), why dont we see them in heavy earth moving applications??


daniels

fuel use, range, and as said above, stressed internals.

if diesels were the be all and end all of offroading, wouldn't the entire tufftruck field and buggy field run diesels?

bad_religion_au wrote:

DanielS wrote:
further.... if petrols made so much torque (boosted or not), why dont we see them in heavy earth moving applications??


daniels

fuel use, range, and as said above, stressed internals.

if diesels were the be all and end all of offroading, wouldn't the entire tufftruck field and buggy field run diesels?

and tufftruck is the epitome of genral 4x4, so we should be using that as a genral guide... ppffff please...

really simply, 12ht will return better fuel econamy and better torque - for his application.

1000nm.... pertol will use a little bit of fuel also cob, wouldn't it, just abit hhhmm?? can you build it and post a dyno report please and also a run down of costs, thanks bye

daniels

DanielS wrote:

bad_religion_au wrote:

DanielS wrote:
further.... if petrols made so much torque (boosted or not), why dont we see them in heavy earth moving applications??


daniels

fuel use, range, and as said above, stressed internals.

if diesels were the be all and end all of offroading, wouldn't the entire tufftruck field and buggy field run diesels?

and tufftruck is the epitome of genral 4x4, so we should be using that as a genral guide... ppffff please...

really simply, 12ht will return better fuel econamy and better torque - for his application.

1000nm.... pertol will use a little bit of fuel also cob, wouldn't it, just abit hhhmm?? can you build it and post a dyno report please and also a run down of costs, thanks bye

daniels

ok, and a diesel is better for general wheelin why?

your not likely to run a 90litre gas tank out on a regular day run in any of the eastern states.

cheaper to run,

more power and torque for less $$$.

no windscreen high water crossings for the general wheeler.

so i fail to see how diesel is superior? unless crossing the simpson, the range isn't all that much of an issue. driving a slow diesel every day is

even a standard falcon 6 has as much torque as a 12h-t, without the expense...

"even a standard falcon 6 has as much torque as a 12h-t, without the expense..."

Um, I don't think you understand what these engines are....
12HT:
Direct Injected
Have piston skirt cooling
Don't use a timing belt/chain = extremely reliable
Produce about 350NM stock as a rock, as soon as you intercool/exhaust/wind her up a bit it's not unusual to be producing a genuine 700NM plus @ low RPM
Extremely good on fuel for the size of the car, factory specs say 10.5lt/100kms WOW !!! Obviously this will increase when you do stuff to it but not but much.
Everything on these engines (if you ever get a chance to have a look at one up close) is made to last and has no short cuts, Toyota actually did an awesome job R&Ding these things and this is why they are still worth an arm and a leg to buy.
I used to be the same in saying that petrols are faster and better than diesels but the comprimise of cost in fuel and maintance and reliability changed my mind into getting a diesel. I had tonnes of troubles with my petrol 3F (water/overheating/gutless/22ltr per 100k's !). If one is going to do a diesel conversion comming from a petrol you need to get something with a heap of poke or you will be disatisfied ie worked TD
Ben.

bad_religion_au wrote: ok, and a diesel is better for general wheelin why?

your not likely to run a 90litre gas tank out on a regular day run in any of the eastern states.

cheaper to run,

more power and torque for less $$$.

no windscreen high water crossings for the general wheeler.

so i fail to see how diesel is superior? unless crossing the simpson, the range isn't all that much of an issue. driving a slow diesel every day is

even a standard falcon 6 has as much torque as a 12h-t, without the expense...

Nope, I don't agree with any of those points. So it's unlikely you'll ever agree with ours.

Cruza62 wrote:"even a standard falcon 6 has as much torque as a 12h-t, without the expense..."

Um, I don't think you understand what these engines are....
12HT:
Direct Injected
Have piston skirt cooling
Don't use a timing belt/chain = extremely reliable
Produce about 350NM stock as a rock, as soon as you intercool/exhaust/wind her up a bit it's not unusual to be producing a genuine 700NM plus @ low RPM
Extremely good on fuel for the size of the car, factory specs say 10.5lt/100kms WOW !!! Obviously this will increase when you do stuff to it but not but much.
Everything on these engines (if you ever get a chance to have a look at one up close) is made to last and has no short cuts, Toyota actually did an awesome job R&Ding these things and this is why they are still worth an arm and a leg to buy.
I used to be the same in saying that petrols are faster and better than diesels but the comprimise of cost in fuel and maintance and reliability changed my mind into getting a diesel. I had tonnes of troubles with my petrol 3F (water/overheating/gutless/22ltr per 100k's !). If one is going to do a diesel conversion comming from a petrol you need to get something with a heap of poke or you will be disatisfied ie worked TD
Ben.

oh i do understand them. and i know they're a great engine. but there are more practical approaches to getting the power. a diesel really doesn't suit every wheeler (having owned a diesel THEN a petrol, don't say that i'm anti diesel).

a 3f is one of the worst petrol motors for a cruiser. so not a fair comparison. a better comparison would be 1fz-fe to 12h-t.

Kiwi bacon. your disagreeing that most eastern states weekend warrior 4wd'ers go to forests close to townships?

you disagree that 22litres/100k's at 50 c a litre is cheaper than 11l/100k's at 145c/l?

you claim that a petrol motor couldn't make as much power and torque as a diesel? i mean given the purchase price of 3 grand for a 12h-t, compared with 200 bucks for most common petrol motors, it leaves some cash to warm it up a bit.

it's said that tufftruck isn't comparable to weekend wheeling above, yet you claim most weekenders drive through windscreen deep water? (side note, i know of a 3f that has done plenty of such crossings on the coorong.)

i'd like to know your points tho

A diesel developes torque extremely early in the rev range, thats why it is more practical for a person not wanting to flog the sh!te out of their car. The 3f used 22ltr/100k's on petrol....even more when i had it on gas (bout 26ltr/100k's) i used to drive from SE suburbs in Vic to Wangaratta using 100ltrs of gas, and thats when the gas system worked !!!
From what I've heard a 1FZ isn't much better on fuel, and I do understand that they are an awesome engine aswell.
The reason the rock crawler guys use massive V8's is because they need the rev range because of the rockcrawling gears in them. The top speeds of these things and the fuel consumption is completly impractical for an offroad tourer.
Go a 12ht, avoid the early 1HDT's (bottom end issues), make biodiesel and travel the world without having a worry about reliability.
Oh wot a feelin
Ben

Cruza62 wrote:A diesel developes torque extremely early in the rev range, thats why it is more practical for a person not wanting to flog the sh!te out of their car. The 3f used 22ltr/100k's on petrol....even more when i had it on gas (bout 26ltr/100k's) i used to drive from SE suburbs in Vic to Wangaratta using 100ltrs of gas, and thats when the gas system worked !!!
From what I've heard a 1FZ isn't much better on fuel, and I do understand that they are an awesome engine aswell.
The reason the rock crawler guys use massive V8's is because they need the rev range because of the rockcrawling gears in them. The top speeds of these things and the fuel consumption is completly impractical for an offroad tourer.
Go a 12ht, avoid the early 1HDT's (bottom end issues), make biodiesel and travel the world without having a worry about reliability.
Oh wot a feelin
Ben

as said before, the 3f;s are a boat anchor. my 2f generally got better economy on gas than you quote on petrol, usually using 150 litres of gas to get from adelaide to melbourne. a mate of mine who kept things tuned properly, using an impco setup used to regularly get 17L/100k's on gas in his 2f powered cruiser. even better milage when he put a ford 6 in it.

not all petrols make their power high in the rev range. 2f's, 250 crossflows/ford 4litre 6's, and nissan 4.2's all make bulk torque under 2000rpm. and LPG usually lowers the rpm peak torque is made again

bad_religion_au wrote: Kiwi bacon. your disagreeing that most eastern states weekend warrior 4wd'ers go to forests close to townships?

you disagree that 22litres/100k's at 50 c a litre is cheaper than 11l/100k's at 145c/l?

you claim that a petrol motor couldn't make as much power and torque as a diesel? i mean given the purchase price of 3 grand for a 12h-t, compared with 200 bucks for most common petrol motors, it leaves some cash to warm it up a bit.

it's said that tufftruck isn't comparable to weekend wheeling above, yet you claim most weekenders drive through windscreen deep water? (side note, i know of a 3f that has done plenty of such crossings on the coorong.)

i'd like to know your points tho

A poor attempt at putting words in my mouth.
22l/100km? I'd be ashamed to drive such a vehicle.
Is that your on-road consumption? Offroad must be at least 30l/100km which gives you a range truely worth scoffing at.

Petrol motors can't make as much torque as a turbo diesel.
LPG reduces power and torque further as the lpg displaces air. Unless of course you build a high compression petrol engine specifically for it.
If you turbo your petrol, you'll be down to around 150km range in your 90L gas tank.

The engine price alone is only one part of the cost of an engine transplant. I notice you've not mentioned anywhere the cost of the gas installation (money and space).
A toyota diesel into a landcruiser is as close as you'll get to plug and play.

Examples of other petrols I know of:
Mate with Patrol 4.2 ltr straight gas, turbo, problem after problem.... overheating, tuning, lost space for gas tank and developes torque in the wrong revs therefore constantly breaking CV's....ouch even more cost !

Mate had a 60 with a chev in it, bit of stuff done to it, once again gas/petrol, constantly had tuning problems, used bucket loads of fuel and oil and once again developed torque in the wrong rev range and CV's !!!

The ford 4ltr engine is a good engine when it is on factory gas (Green engine), otherwise every other gas system I have ever seen those cars on (even two my family has owned) has been crap = problem after problem!!!

When installing gas into a vehicle youy must buy the absolute best gas system on the market or run straight gas research otherwise the thing will never run as it should. And you have to build the engine just to run gas otherwise tappets, valves all sorts of ugly things go wrong !!

A diesel developes all of its torque at low revs, a 12ht can develop 700NM under 2500 RPM if you do stuff to it. A 2f is a petrol guzzling push rod, carby anchor, just as bad as the 3f ! A 1FZ is a damn good engine but at the cost of a SH1TE load of fuel !!! If you have the cash to splash on fuel GO FOR IT, but if you don't see the point in pooring senseless money into a car just to make it go, then GET A DIESEL !!
Ben