Outer Limits 4x4 Board

i herd that the owner is going to miss AT08, and was looking for a seat

its also why a lot of people mod their cars illegally an often dangerously (no engineer involved).... the tighter the laws get the more people are just going to not bother making it legal...

mugginsmoo wrote:i herd that the owner is going to miss AT08, and was looking for a seat

The owner of that one is not alone in missing AT08 I think but watch out AT09

cj wrote:

mugginsmoo wrote:i herd that the owner is going to miss AT08, and was looking for a seat

The owner of that one is not alone in missing AT08 I think but watch out AT09

soft I tell ya, soft

alien wrote:its also why a lot of people mod their cars illegally an often dangerously (no engineer involved).... the tighter the laws get the more people are just going to not bother making it legal...

There are many people who build safe and very well built cars that aren't engineered. Unfortunately, the nature of engineering certs tends to work against a 4WD that's used hard - 4WD's tend to be built progressively as parts break, wear out, or budget allows. This is not allowed for with a cert.

Added to this problem is that few people have the budget or time to build a whole car in one hit in a short timeframe.

I have also seen some very unsafe stuff certed, either by being deliberately concealed from the engineer or the engineer not spotting it. An engineer's cert is a legal requirement, not every car with a cert is well built or IMHO safe (from what I've seen) and not every car built without a cert is unsafe.

Just some thoughts.

Steve.

alien wrote:its also why a lot of people mod their cars illegally an often dangerously (no engineer involved).... the tighter the laws get the more people are just going to not bother making it legal...

Hear hear.

Lower the fuel tank a few inches, and fill it up.
Mount the battery as low as possible.
Run A/T or H/T tyres with less than half tread.
Mount a "Big Rig" style wind deflector on the bonnet.

whats the wind deflector going to do??

alien wrote:whats the wind deflector going to do??

increase wind resistance = slower.

lock in in low range hehe, tell him u have low gearing that stops speeding.

ahhh good call...

lol @ low range - 5th gear 3500rpm is about 40km/hr.... redline would probably get me to 50km/hr! haha

What do you guys reckon about my rear door - screwed onto it is a 20mm thick board hold 2x 6x9 speakers... reckon that weight at the rear is useful? im thinking it would be even though its raising COG its weight on the rear... thoughts? =)

loose any weight you can extra weight anywhere in the car will hurt this test, ESPECIALLY behind the rear axle - it will increase roll steer which is what ends in rolled cars.

Steve.

Sounds like it's time for a Revolution , I can't believe you guys put up with a government making laws like that .
Think a lifted vehicle can't perform manuevers? Check out desert race trucks !
Your only problem is wheel base length . You need to either increase wheel track width a lot or do a lot of work with sway bars and such to pass dumb tests like this . Like Steve said also, keep the weight down, that's the one attribute the Suzuki's have to start with .
Sarge

Revolution ? - we had a mini one aways back that gave the history guru's something to put in books, an "alternative" flag and a few tourists spots.



Nowadays it would likely end with most people giving it a miss and those that came having a BBQ and a beer afterwards.


Now on subject again...... its not a matter of lifted can't perform maneuvers, its a matter of demonstrating that the vehicle in question ACTUALLY can.
Vehicle safety and standards can be a PITA but it does have its benefits.

Sarge, I think you better leave politics to some other forum. The US is not without its share of stupid laws and social problems that we just don't see here.

anyway, in my opinion, they're not "stupid" laws, they're laws designed to protect road users from unsafe vehicles. We might not like them because they don't align with we what we might like to do, so we wither work within them or outside of them and deal with the consequences, but for the good of all road users, they are well intentioned.

I am happy that there is an external body that regulates to keep unsafe vehicles off the streets. I actually wish is was more effective. I;m happy to know I have to have my car certified and signed off by someone that knows much more about cars than me before I can legally use it on the road.

I think you're comments on desert trucks are a bit misinformed. A) they're generally not very tall compared to their width B) they're often very very wide C) they're not designed for high speed cornering D) they are abolsutely terrible on pavement. they're not designed for a high traction environment. The high lateral loads pavement can allow make them flop and wobble all over the place. I doubt they could effectively complete a lane change maneuver because they're far too loose.

Steve.

Sarge wrote:Sounds like it's time for a Revolution , I can't believe you guys put up with a government making laws like that .
Think a lifted vehicle can't perform manuevers? Check out desert race trucks !
Your only problem is wheel base length . You need to either increase wheel track width a lot or do a lot of work with sway bars and such to pass dumb tests like this . Like Steve said also, keep the weight down, that's the one attribute the Suzuki's have to start with .
Sarge

A lot of people say we do but we just stand around drinking beer and complaining. The last time it nearly happened was when they tried to take our guns of us we had a vote put the good guy in and they took our guns anyway.Back to topic we have some of the toughest rules in the world for cars but there is still a few loop holes if you know them.Sarge dont stop posting because of one person .Alien keep up the good work and show us when you get plates on it

One post deters nothing here ...it's all in good humor .
Our laws are well beyond reason , but the one thing that would cause war here is too much gun control , that will never happen .
The desert trucks I refer to are more of the stock class , high suspension travel at reasonable amounts of lift . Yes, they handle great on the road under high traction situations with the right tires .
I agree , certain laws are needed to prevent what we have here in some areas - redneck mentality . Those types make it harder on the rest of us that actually try to make things safe and legal , I'm sure it's what drove lawmakers to make the move they did in Oz .I'm not saying it's a bad thing , but maybe a bit of cooperation on their part would help . If the "engineer" were willing to give pointers maybe....
You can make it handle , no doubt about that .
It's only a question of whether or not you're willing to do the work and spend the coin .
Sarge

Sarge, the process of getting a car legal here starts well before any modification work commences. Discussing the build with an engineer (that is an engineer approved by the vehicle registration body in the state the car is being built)

Engineers are principally interested in the safety of the build. they will have very little to say about whether it's a good idea or not, but a good relationship with the engineer can go some way towards making the build easy - i.e stability tests etc.

What is permissible has often been quite subjective based on the engineer concerned and as varied enormously from state to state. Currently, a National Code of Practice has been produced that, in theory, will mean all states will adopt the same standards.

Still, even under the NCOP, if an engineer is concerned about the height and stability of a car, they may demand a stability test. If, however, the overall height has only increased a minimal amount, and the engineer is satisfied that the car drives at least as well as stock, then there may be no requirement for a stability test. (Not all states are currently acknowledging the NCOP)

In the case of Alien's build, he is well outside the maximum tyre size and height increase permitted in the NCOP. If he is able to pass the stability test, great, he will have a bigger car than could be built if the NCOP is adopted in his state.

Basically, the NCOP allows for a maximum of 150mm or 6" in overall height increase, which can be broken down across tyre size, body lift and suspension lift.

It is possible though, if you can get the wheel bearing/axle strength approved, to have a very large tyre, so long as the overall height stays under the 6" limit.

As I pointed out though, it was actually possible for Alien to have avoided the requirement for the stability test but still keep his 31" tyres on the cert if he kept the car SPUA.

IT all comes down to working it all through with the engineer.

Alien, did you know you were going to have to do the stability test with your planned mods when you first approached the engineer?

Steve

yeah mate - anything over 2" including tyres, susp etc requires the lane change test =)

6" is the limit however my application for this permit dates back 3 years before that rule came in - so im going in under the old rules - and in my letter i stated using 2" lifted leaves - although i underestimated my lift to be 6.5" in my letter as i didnt include the tyres.

how about this
play with timing so your zuks max speed will be 80km/h at the time of the test. they can't fail you for not beeing able to go 110

i may be wrong just an idea

5teve wrote:how about this
play with timing so your zuks max speed will be 80km/h at the time of the test. they can't fail you for not beeing able to go 110

i may be wrong just an idea

yes they will.

why?
im sure there is a lot of agricultural wehicles that won't do 110 and are road legal

yeah i was thinking more of adjusting the screw for the accelerator stop point so its harder to "put your foot to the floor" lol...

5teve wrote:why?
im sure there is a lot of agricultural wehicles that won't do 110 and are road legal

And they will be registered as such meaning they can't be driven on motorways etc.

Steve.

if ur car cant get up to speed for an emergency or overtaking, they will not allow it to pass, this is on the dpi website sumwhere, saw it posted on another forum.

instead of trying ways to get around something (you will always get found out eventually) just make sure it passes the relevant tests etc

Dodgy stuff at this point of the game is just pointless, why bother with half assed now?

Ok, so it sounds like the whole issue with the engineers is basically the spring over ? I can see also where inconsistency between states would cause a problem, we have the same issues here with emissions testings . Since I build carbs , some have to be set up for testing , the variations between testing stations and even the inspectors themselves really makes it hard at times .

I'm sure if he just put the time into a proper sway bar with drop mounts if needed would take care of most of the issue . I wonder too if upgrading to a heavier set of axles with a bit wider track would be allowed , as this is one of the best mods we do here . My cure at the time was the 2" backspaced wheels to widen the track width . I hate how they wear bearings so much faster but the added stability makes it more than driveable on the highways . Here, most of the police don't bother lifted trucks unless they are way beyond the laws . The biggest problem is the same as yours-insurance companies . Just the mention of the Suzuki Samurai raises a red flag with most companies . Some will impose age restrictions (25+ year old driver) , others won't even consider covering them due to the bad rap from Consumer Reports magazine .

I'm glad Steve explained some of the process . Most of the other posts just made the whole thing sound like some nasty conspiracy ....
Sarge

Gwagensteve wrote:Wesley, driving in your back yard gets old.

If you want to drive in a state forest, any public land, or any public road, your car needs to be as legal as if you drove it work every day. One day, there will be a cop at the end of your favourite track and you'll be asked the question. It's happened.

If you can truthfully say it won't ever see a public road, then yeah, trailer everywhere, but I don't believe that's viable in this country - I even think the few off road parks there are often require registration.

There closing all the state forests and public land close to perth for recreational use anyway and not to mention all the shit you get when you drive a hard track from the greenys on another 4x4 forum in WA that does more damage to the sport than it prevents, private land is the way of the future (Just look at gun clubs and how many of them have brought land to go shooting on) The price differance on clubs to get insurance for non rego'd/ rego'd vehicles is very little. The only reason i could see for somone to want to get there 4x4 certified is if they were building a tourer and even then you can get some pretty well setup 4x4's without having to go through all the trouble. And as for off road parks you can get offroad rego for your buggy/bike/monstertruck to drive there.

A few little things,
The national code of practice is a good laugh, every state claims they are doing all the work but from what i have seen(NSW,WA,QLD) most mod rules are exactly the same as my 1994 NSW engineers code of practice for light vehicles.
for example engine sizes,bonnet scoops,etc are identical with only the state & authority name changed

1.1 the width of your car (not really fair how about a standard lane size please,we don't have different lanes for different 4b's do we??).

IF your front bumper just happens to be a little wide your lane will be 1.1 the width of it yes it has been done to pass the WA swerve test already.

How about a sideangle stability test. Shorley somebody can calculate an angle that simulates this kind of sideload,it would be much cheaper & safer than the lane change test,
WHO becomes liable if the driver is hurt while attempting this manoeuvre?


A stock navara did fail
(authorities are not concerned as stock vehicle is approved at federal level & nothing to do with the rules as its not modified).
They are the ones with the power & are not amused if you want to debate the rules.

alien wrote:whats the wind deflector going to do??

gives (ever so slight) downforce at the front from about 80 kph onward. And every little bit helps.

This law is the most stupid thing I think I have ever heard.......
I Semi couldn't pass this test nor could most smaller trucks on the road at 100k's so what is the difference they are on the road....
Its just another stab at the modded 4wd community.
I'd like to see the smallest of the RTA's water trucks do that test, and they may also need to swerve one day......stupid, just plain stupid.
They'd do better to check out some of the bodgey welds on some of the vehicles on the road.