Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Got the Rangie running on MegaSquirt last night! Yahoo!!!

I had some difficulties with the calculation of the temp sensors.
Originally, I used EasyTherm and entered Celcius figures from the Haynes manual. I couldn't get it to run for more than a few seconds.
I MegaTune it looked like it was using my Celcius figures as Farenheight.
Last night I re-entered the figures into EasyTherm using Farenheight and now she runs fine.
So far I am using a borrowed map as I don't have an o2 sensor fitted so can't do any tuning. But already I feel it idles much better, runs smoother and deliverys more power down low. I've only driven it around the block, so will reserve decision until after a bit more travelling.

So far, so good!!!

Nicely done,

This thread has inspired a fair few rover owners - I certainly keen
thanks for the progress update

Tom

You can tune it without an O2 sensor, just imagine you're tuning something with carbs - i.e: Completely by guesswork and what feels about right!

Nicely done though!

People seem to be really sceptical of the whole system until someone has the balls to try it and find aout just how easy it really is. People seem intimidated by EFi because of all the wires and things, but once you look at it you realise how little there realy is to it - if anything it's simpler than trying to arse around with carbs.

I really hate tiny little springs, gaskets, grub screws, needles, diagphrams...

when you say you can tune it without an o2 sensor it is not like tuning a carb ... your mixutre will be all over the place .. as you accel up a hill it can go from rich to lean to rich 20 times .. and to set the best cruse mixture you really do need a 02 sensor, especially if you are setting your ignition advance maps too, if you keep the old vaccume advance dizzy then it will be a bit easier, but you wont get the best performance, and that is why we do it in the first place.
you dont want to run the engine lean and never know about it .. we all know that will cause heaps of problems down the track, especially in a 4wd ... he he
If your going to do it ... do it the right way from the start !!!
Cheers
RANGEE

Started playing with the maps on the weekend as all though it went well it smelt rich. Also, I wanted to get rid of the airflow meter. I had been using the air temp sensor in the airflow metre.
I noticed two problems.
1. The air temp shown on Megatune was always red and didn't seem to change from -40. (F or C).
2. My idle adjustment screw on the throttle body was gunk up and completely in.
I fitted a Bosch water temp sensor as my air temp sensor, same resistance figures as the Lucas water temp. And low and behold, the air temp on MegaTune was now correct, and in yellow. It changed as the day got hotter as well.
All should be good now, I thought, but it wouldn't start on either of the maps I had been driving on the last week.
Can't get it started or running on anything now. The only time I had any success was when I reinstalled the air flow meter temp sensor, which promptly put MegaTune into the red and no change from -40.
Its back to Lucas at the moment so does anyone have any words of wisdom.
By the way FridgeFreezer, I didn't end up doing anything to the fuel pump system as I was running well, but rich, before I fiddled on the weekend.

YTT - you'll probably need to up the "cranking pulsewidth" enrichment, the top (hot) figure is about 5ms as standard, mine needs about 10-12ms to start properly.

That confused the hell out of me a few times whilst tunng, I fiddled with the map, didn't like it, burned the "old" map back in - forgetting that the "old" map I hadn't set the cranking pulsewidth so it would refuse to start

Did you sort it? Is it running OK now? Are you now too busy playing with it to post here?

Hi folks !

I just registered new in this forum because I read this thread quite interested.

I am building a 3.9 liter Rover V8 for my Landrover 110 and I am already playing with the idea to use the MegaSquirt system since quite a while.

Especially because I going to tune the engine a little bit and set it up with one of the rare Rover twin plenums with custom throttle size !
To face the higher air intake I think the MS is ideal for individual fuel mapping!?


This thread made the MS even more attractive for me and I am going to follow it very interested!

I don't know if you guys can get it, but Practical Performace Car are doing a complete series on installing MS from scratch, starting with an old carbed car and ending up with MegaSquirt-n-EDIS. Plenty of this sort of stuff in there, and no mention of neon lights or big speakers!

An other question to this topic...........


Seeing that I am going to throw out the old 3.5l carb engine and fix a new rebuild 3.9l one ( with a couple of modifications ) ......
my idea was to get it first running on the original hotwire efi system with the 14CU ECU.....
and afterwards fix a programable ECU e.g. the MegaSquirt.

Do you guys think that´s tactically clever or are there any arguments to start with the MS straight away ???

That's a tough one. I ran mine on the flapper system for about two weeks before fitting the MS, but if I did it again I *personally* wouldn't bother.

The reason is the lucas system is fussy about a lot of stuff, so you have to connect all the wires right or it won't start. It took me days to get everything right so it would start and run on Lucas, it took less than a day to chop the Lucas ECU off and get it running on MS.

The difference is that with MS you start with an ECU that you know to be working, and you plug the laptop in and you can SEE all the sensors, so if one guage on the laptop goes off the scale you know the sensor's not connected right. With Lucas it's pure guesswork. Likewise the mixture - with a lambda sensor you can see if it's running rich or lean, with lucas - who knows?

The MS allows you to remove or disconnect a lot of stuff that Lucas use, like the over-run fuel cut, which works by a vacuum switch driving a relay that literally disconnects the TACH signal from the coil when the engine is in over-run. This is Lucas's way of making the ECU inject no fuel, but of course it's extra things to go wrong. With MS you just tune the fuel map to inject less fuel when the engine is in over-run and "short" the relay by unplugging it and connecting the wires together (make sure you connect the right two )

I would be inclined to go straight for MS, it may take a few tries to get going but I can e-mail you my base map & settings which should make life easier. If you fit the lucas first you'll just have to undo (or ignore) half of what you do once you convert to MS. In *theory* the lucas should run straight out of the box...

Hi fridgefreezer !

Thanx for your opinion!
I know your homepage for quite a while. Very interesting!!!
When I am coming to that point it would be fantastic if I may come back to you for the base mapping and if necessary some more advice.


Thomas

I'll add you to the list of people who want my base map - really must get the laptop working so I can get it onto the net!

FridgeFreezer

I'm back from my honeymoon, now.

Hopefully, I'll get back into the MS after I've finished doing all the washing!

Married life, oh well!!!

Right, finally sorted the laptop issue out...

To run MS using the original water temp sensor on a Rover V8:

Download this file & burn it to the controller (this is the firmware):
http://www.juracid.demon.co.uk/lr/ms/megasquirt.s19

Download this rough fuelling map which should put all the constants right and give you a starting VE table for tuning:
http://www.juracid.demon.co.uk/lr/ms/RV8_39_Rough_Base.msq

Download MegaTune 2.25 and then add this file to the configuration:
http://www.juracid.demon.co.uk/lr/ms/thermfactor.inc
MegaTune's temperature guage will now read correctly.

Go play! And send me back a better fuel map to save me the bother

I just plugged my MS back into the Stim and checked the original operating instructions.
The LEDs on the MS seem to do the right thing, but the Fuel Pump one on the Stim never glows, no matter what knobs I fiddle with.
The other perculiar thing is that the LED for injector bank 2 is lit all the time and doesn't change when fiddling, whereas the LED for injector bank 1 flashes whe revs are low but glows steady when revs are near maximum.

Any help where my problems may lie?

PS. The Stim is powered by a 12v battery pack.

Trevor,
If your MS board is the V2.2 (which it should be) the LED's are (left to right):

Warmup Enrichment
Injector firing (either bank)
Acceleration enrichment (should glow when you floor it)

If one is on all the time I guess that's the warmup one and you've got the temperature set wrong, either the stim or the MS settings. As for the fuel pump light - err, don't know! I'd ask on the MSEFi forums you'll get someone more intelligent than me. Mind you, that's no great challenge

Hi Fridgefreezer!

Last friday my 3.9 engine arrived..... looks stunning !
I started straight away checking out the injection system.

Now I have a bunch of futher MS questions.


1. Extra air valve / bypass valve

The 3.5 efi system uses this grey extra air valve which sits on the front top end of the inlet manifold.
The 3.9 efi has this stepper motor bypass valve on the backside of the plenum.
I also own the spring fether vacuum driven bypass valve version. ( plenum back side )
( Somewhere I have seen the instruction for setting up the 3.5 extra air valve version with MS... but seeing that the 3.9 never used this valve I am not sure what to do !? )

Does the MS support the stepper motor version ?
Or which one do you recommend with the MS?
Do I need one at all ?

2. Fuel temp sensor ( on the front of the fuel rail )

Does MS support it?
Do I need it /does it make any sence ?

3. What about the speed transducer / sensor?

Does MS support it?
Do I need it /does it make any sence ?

4. Can I use the original Range Rover O^2 Sensors ??? ( As far as I know they put out max 0.55volts !? )
If not what O^2 sensor should I go for ?

5. Which injectors are you running on your 3.9 ?
Also the original BLACK ones ?

6. Is there anything special I have to mind with the fuel pressure regulator?
I am planing to use the adjustable one from RPi !?


Oh dear ! So many questions !
But I guess for you not a big deal !

OneTenV8,
I'll answer as I go, if you see what I mean...

1. Extra air valve / bypass valve

Does the MS support the stepper motor version ? - The MS-II upgrade and the UltraMegaSquirt will, the current MS doesn't, but I find I can live without a fast idle, it just runs a bit lumpy for the first half a mile.

Or which one do you recommend with the MS? - The grey one, it's far simpler. You feed it ith 12v when the engine is running (so any IGN live feed) and it heats up and does it's thing by itself. The stepper motor thing i a world of complexity you don't need.

Do I need one at all ? - I'm not using one, I just accept I have to either let the motor warm up for a minute or so before setting off, or that the first 1/2 mile will be a bit lumpy and prone to stalling. I'll reconnect the grey air valve at some point in the "proper" EFi rewire.

2. Fuel temp sensor ( on the front of the fuel rail )

Does MS support it? No but you have two spare analogue inputs to play with so nothing stopping you adding the code to use it or datalog it.

Do I need it /does it make any sence ? - Well it's obviously there for a reason but no-one else seems to care.

3. What about the speed transducer / sensor?

Does MS support it? - See previous answer.
Do I need it /does it make any sence ? - See previous answer.

4. Can I use the original Range Rover O^2 Sensors ??? ( As far as I know they put out max 0.55volts !? )
If not what O^2 sensor should I go for ?

You can use them, you just set the EGO target to 0.55v. MS-II will allow the use of one sensor for each bank, for now you just have to pick one and assume the other bank will use the same amount of fuel (or put one further down after the pipes join). Again, it's not something that's bothered anyone much, many car manufacturers use one sensor on V engines with no problems.

5. Which injectors are you running on your 3.9 ?
Also the original BLACK ones ?

Early 3.5 ones, whatever they may be. Seems they were used all the way to 4.6 so I guess they're up to it.

6. Is there anything special I have to mind with the fuel pressure regulator?
I am planing to use the adjustable one from RPi !?

Nope, MS doesn't care, all this is doing is increasing the flow rate of your injectors at high RPM by upping the pressure. Debatable if you'll even need one with a tunable EFi system - to get more fuel at high RPM you up the fuel map at high RPM. Unless you find the MS is having to run your injectors past 80% duty cycle you shouldn't need to up the fuel pressure / flow anyway.

Wow fridgefreezer !

That´s what I call detailed answers ! Thanx a lot !!!

-Fuel temp and speed sensors:
Cool ! Wasn´t keen on using them anyway.

-Injectors:
What I know is that they are not exactly the same.
3.5l grey ones
3.9l black ones
4.6l green ones
The black and green ones take higher open-close rates than the grey ones.
If you are running a big and tuned engine it might happen that the grey ones stay open all the time because of a to fast and high fuel amount/ mapping ! That would cause backfires then !
So it should be possible to use green ones for example on a 3.5 l , but not grey ones on a 4.6l !


- Air valves:
Thats cool that it works without one.
But don´t you think you miss out on one of the efi benefits.
I mean... turning the key and the engine runs ok straight away!?
The grey extra air valve ( front of manifold ) is not my favorite because it takes up quite a lot of space between the water elbow and the fuel rail.
I might have a problem with that !

Do you know this version ( photo! )???
It is more or less the same like the stepper motor one , but works pure mechanically.
It opens a disk/fether when a vacum builds up in the plenum and breathes additional air from before the throttle disc!

Do you think that will do ???



Cheers Thomas

How handy - I've just picked up a 3.9 inlet & injectors which has the mechanical thingy in your photo and GREEN injectors. Should do nicely for the 4.6

Don't throw your vehicle speed sensor away just yet - check out the traction control thread!

Hi fridgefreezer !

Congratulations !
I compared the black injectors today with the green ones of a friend of mine .

The black ones have the typical `center needle´ on the injection end..... the green ones are different...they have 4 tiny holes instead !!!
Have a close look on yours !!!
Would be quite interessted how the differences in performance are !?
The green ones were used on the late THOR efi systems ( 4.6l )!


@ all
Does anybody have data sheets for ROVER INJECTORS ??? ( 3.5 /3.9/4.2/4.6 )

The BOSCH-numbers are:
0 280 150 105 (grey)
0 280 150 227 (black)
0 280 155 787 (green)

I would be interessted in those!

You might want to check out some of the links from here:
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=2576
Loads of injector specs.

Mine are black with a green band round them, and have a recessed end like this:

(From http://www.sdsefi.com/injectors.htm)

No more info about them right now unless you can tell me anything?

No! Those are not the green ones I was talking about !

I meant the ERR 6600 disc type ones!
But it doesn`t really matter.
After I had a closer look on the green ones today I am no longer
convinced of them anyway....I will stay with my black ones!

I´ve been so free to complete your injectors list in the MS forum!
--->here http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?p=23465#23465


Cheers Thomas

ORDERED !!!

MS kit & stimulator kit


Now I belong to the familly !!!


Let´s hope I get it running !!!

I've got my MS up and running now. I needed to clean the board to get all the old flux of it.

But now I have a strange sensor problem.

FridgeFreezer, I'm using your files and the car starts and drives OK, provided I use the air temp sensor in the air flow metre. However, when I use that one the MAT on MegaTune shows -36C. When I replace it with a Rover water temp sensor, which has the same values, I get correct temp readings, but it idles like crap and can't be driven.

I've attached two datalogs, one with each sensor and no other changes.

I also can't get MAT to read on MegaTune at all when connected to STIM.

Any thoughts.


www24.brinkster.com/t2consulting/interest/datalog1.xls

www24.brinkster.com/t2consulting/interest/datalog2.xls[/url]

TTT - For everyone to read again.

Just read it all again and my head hurts

I want to do this.... I have $$$..... but i dont have the patience/knowledge.....
all this talk of different vesions and map setings, lambada sensors, 02, stimulators has lost me big time

Who wants to make sum $$$ and drink sum beer and help me out
Me and my POS are located on the gold coast and I, like Ruff would like to get everthing needed and a replacement loom ? ? ? I have a laptop that I should be able to download the program to and I can get that base map VE table thingy as a starting point.

Hope to join the MS group of rover enthusiast soon, and hopefully i can learn abit from sumone willing to help out.

Cheers
Anthony

Hi peoples,
I know I don't have a Rangie but I DO have a p76 sedan which I am currently Megasquirting. I am using the Wilpower manifold with an adapter to use a GM TBI off a 350. This is maily so if something goes wrong I can chuck a 4 barrel back on easily. Also, the TBI uses a standard holley air cleaner. I'm going to use an O2 sensor in one exhaust and standard GM coolant temp sensors for intake and coolant temp. The TBI already has an inbuilt fuel pressure regulator, TPS and idle air control motor, making things easy. I'm also using a VL Commodore fuel pump. I bought my MS from Glens garage over a year ago, with the relay board and stimulator. I'm going to start installing it in a couple of weeks and I'll take some pictures if anyone is interested.

Pics are good