TUFF TRUCK IS SAVED!!!!!

[Strange Rover]

Now on the winching note is Glens 45 any less tuff because he had to winch once or twice last year? did that make him any less exciting to watch because he had to winch? No it didn`t.

This was the utterly most dissapointing moment I have ever had as a spectator at Tuff Truck. Dobbin winching that rock after a half hearted attempt.

Now if you like watching rigs winch stuff then you might find this exciting but not me.

Winching in confined areas with spectators is dangerous - period. Its only going to take one winch cable to break and fly the wrong way and they are going to seriously hurt sombody. I carnt see how anybody can argue that winching is safer for spectators.

More trucks roll at the Nissan trials because the courses are harder and steeper - nothing to do with winching.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

As an example of how dangerous winching can be - at the last TT on rockw horror where mose people were winching on the double stepup everybody was running out about 20 metres of cable and attaching it to a tree on the spectator boundary. The 20m cable, if it let go, could probably have hit any one of about 200 people. people would have been standing less than 5m from the attachment point. To clear spectators from within reach on the 20m cable would have moved about 1/2 the spectators viewing the course. Now if you figger that you could attach a 30m cable to any tree on the spectator bounday anywhere on the course puts the spectators a very long way from the action. Basically you would have to have no spectators if you were to allow winching and guarantee spectator safety.

There shouldnt be competitive winching anywhere near where spectators are going to be which means no competitive winching.

Sam

[Maggot4x4]

Now on the winching note is Glens 45 any less tuff because he had to winch once or twice last year? did that make him any less exciting to watch because he had to winch? No it didn`t.

This was the utterly most dissapointing moment I have ever had as a spectator at Tuff Truck. Dobbin winching that rock after a half hearted attempt.

Now if you like watching rigs winch stuff then you might find this exciting but not me.

Winching in confined areas with spectators is dangerous - period. Its only going to take one winch cable to break and fly the wrong way and they are going to seriously hurt sombody. I carnt see how anybody can argue that winching is safer for spectators.

More trucks roll at the Nissan trials because the courses are harder and steeper - nothing to do with winching.

Sam

What Glen was doing was using the rules to his best advantage, it worked, HE WON. Was it fun to watch, not really.

But it's kinda like the difference between a Test match and a One Dayer. He was using a stratagy and you can appreaciate that for his forward thinking and he didn't let the excitement of the event get the best of him. But it is not the instant excitement you get from watching a very capable truck drive a hard obstacle.

Another thing is the rule with NO OUTSIDE help allowed, this is a good rule if it is applied to EVERY!!!!!!!!! compeditor. Last year I wasn`t even allowed to camp outside the compeditors area with my mates because they (tuff truck organisers) wanted to be able to make shore nobody else was working on my rig (fair enough I understand that), but somebody (don`t need to say who) was allowed to take his rig home to fix it.

That just plain SUX.

[MissDrew]

I`m not saying that winching is safe at anytime with or without spectators. I`m saying that it can be just as dangerous without it.

Like I said in an earlier post. Imagine being at the top of a series of steps and you loose it when under FULL noise, you either go over backwards or roll sideways after getting crossed up and you go rolling rolling rolling rolling rolling to the bottom where you come across all the spectators that are standing closer because there is NO winching, opps you just rolled over them, killed 2 of them, broke your arm, spilt open your face as it cracked the steering wheel and complety distroyed your rig in the prosess.

I know this has never happened in a comp but niether has a spectator being injorned or killed by a broken winch cable.

Now do we need reminding about the accendent at the Ateco? I know this wasn`t speed, silly driving or winching that cause it (I was there). But things can happen in ANYWAY winching isn`t the worst saftey thing in 4x4ing nor is it the safest. Same goes for heaps of pedal driving (like you do sam) its not the worst safety thing in 4x4ing nor is it the safest.

More people have been hert or killed by 4x4s rolling on or over them then by winch cables.

I know you don`t like winching, but just because you don`t does that mean it should be banned? If you want to try and win tuff truck then good on you for wanting to have a go and ever better if you succesed and even better again if you do it without winching at all over the weekend and everbody will remember that you did the whole event without even running the cable. But if winching is in it and everybody else uses their`s and cops big points for doing so (say 100 points if that makes it less appearling) then you will win by more points and kick everybody`s arse`s with a bigger foot and get more glory.

Have you ever been to Nissan Trials? The tracks their are no harder than the ones at tuff truck. Because there is no winching people drive harder (I know I do) because they drive harder they stuff up harder and sometimes roll. Its simpal.

I don`t know maybe I am explaining the points I am trying to get across the wrong way.

[MissDrew]

As an example of how dangerous winching can be - at the last TT on rockw horror where mose people were winching on the double stepup everybody was running out about 20 metres of cable and attaching it to a tree on the spectator boundary. The 20m cable, if it let go, could probably have hit any one of about 200 people. people would have been standing less than 5m from the attachment point. To clear spectators from within reach on the 20m cable would have moved about 1/2 the spectators viewing the course. Now if you figger that you could attach a 30m cable to any tree on the spectator bounday anywhere on the course puts the spectators a very long way from the action. Basically you would have to have no spectators if you were to allow winching and guarantee spectator safety.

There shouldnt be competitive winching anywhere near where spectators are going to be which means no competitive winching.

Sam

Ok Now look at it from what I am saying about winching not being the biggest saftey problem in 4x4ing nor the smallest. At the last Woodpecker after cheezy broke his transfer and had winched up the hill turned around and was coming down another hill he got stuck on a rock (only had 2wd) so he put his foot a long way down on the loud pedal. IF!!!!!! it had of jumped off the rock his rig was tacking off down the hill at 100m/hr straight into the crowd only 5mts away and dead straight infront of him (there was a turn in the track here) one of the people wright in line with the front of his rig was ruff, I had to yell at ALL these people to back up because if it jumped forward quickly off this rock they would be getting driven over. You should have seen them ALL jump back and get out of the way.

It was the same when he was winching up when he broke, he had NO drive at all and the whole weight of the rig was on the cable, everybody was standing about 10mts away, I had to tell these people to back the fark up and move wright away as there was a huge possiblility of the cable breaking since there was so much weight it. Once I yell back the fark up they all move back. M Ellem just looked at me and said geezzz dave say what you think.

Now there is 1 example of each instance being very dangerous to spectators in the same comp with the same rig on the same stange within 30mts of each other.

Does that explain what I am trying to say better?

[RUFF]

Dave i was never in front of Cheezy's rig. I was right beside it when he got stuck on that rock.

And all your last post shows is how badly the orginisers of woodpecker set up their spectator areas.

[MissDrew]

I thought you were in front, I just remember seeing you and the look on ya face. But its not the spot where the t case dropped the oil, it was before that, the spot where we move the rock out of the way with the wheel and the hydro. It was about 2 car leghts before the oil came out.


Woodpeckers spectator areas are no different than Nissan Trials, Tuff truck or winch challenges I`ve been to.

I`d bet my house on it that at some stage during XRCC`s that there has been a spectator at some stage to close to a rig that was either driving or winching. Or a spotter that was in a bad spot. Hell it happens everytime you/me/anybody goes driving. Remember when you let the tyre go down the hill, how close was that to killing somebody? Not in a comp but still a bad thing to happen if it hit somebody.

You can take winching out as much as you like there is still going to be just as much danger at a comp with spectators.

What about going up a hill at full niose and a rock is spat out from under a wheel and goes fling thought the air and hits a spectator in the head. You loose your steering in the wrong spot. ya spare wheel comes loose and goes for a trip on its own or you break all the wheel studs off and a wheel of the rig goes for a ride. Their are so many things that can happen its not funning. Winching isn`t the ONLY dangerous thing, if you get rid of it because of the danger then you had better get rid of a lot of other things to.

[Strange Rover]

I think I understand what you are saying but IMO whether or not competitive winching is allowed wont change the risks assiciated with vehicles rolling over. People generally try to drive stuff first without winching and use winching as a last resort (becasue this is the way to win these types of competition) so wether you winch as a last resort or allow no winching the chance of sombody rolling over or leaping into the crowd wont change. And it especially wont change the odds for the people that dont really care if they roll (like me for instance). Now it is very easy to control the crowd to not allow them into places where they are at risk of a rig running over them.

The big difference is that it impossible to control the crowd so they arnt at risk of getting hit by a 30m winch cable if it comes loose and still let them be in a position where they can see the action of these short course type events. This is the biggest danger IMO.

Have a think about what you would have to do to guarantee that nobody will get hit by your wince cable if it comes loose when you are winching at a competition like tuff truck. Whats safe winching practice here - its something like nobody within 2 lengths of the winch cable being used (or is it just 1 length??) These basic safety rules seem to get thrown out the window when the competitin is on and when the competition is on there is even more likely hood of a cable breaking and with so many people standing around within 1 winch cable length you could almost guarantee that when a cable goes it will hit sombody.

Now if spectators were far enough from the cable then it wouldnt be dangerous but this hasnt and isnt ever going to happen. Easier and safer just to ban winching.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

You can take winching out as much as you like there is still going to be just as much danger at a comp with spectators.

How can you even say this. I have tried to explain how dangerous winching is and the problems with spectators being too close to a loaded winch cable.

By saying this you are saying that there is not risk associated with winching in close proximity to spectators.

And every other risk assiciated with 4wd competitions (like flying rocks, rolling, launching into the crowd) wont change if competitive winching isnt allowed.

So to say again by not allowing competitive winching removes the biggest threat to spectator safety in 4wd competitions today.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

I`d bet my house on it that at some stage during XRCC`s that there has been a spectator at some stage to close to a rig that was either driving or winching. Or a spotter that was in a bad spot. Hell it happens everytime you/me/anybody goes driving. Remember when you let the tyre go down the hill, how close was that to killing somebody? Not in a comp but still a bad thing to happen if it hit somebody.

XRCC is probably the safest IMO for spectators. This year there is no competitive winching allowed and spectator location have been controlled well (easy to do with only a few hundred spectators)

The competitors and spotters take their own risks and even this is being worked on to make this safer.

Sam

[MissDrew]

You can take winching out as much as you like there is still going to be just as much danger at a comp with spectators.

How can you even say this. I have tried to explain how dangerous winching is and the problems with spectators being too close to a loaded winch cable.

By saying this you are saying that there is not risk associated with winching in close proximity to spectators.

And every other risk assiciated with 4wd competitions (like flying rocks, rolling, launching into the crowd) wont change if competitive winching isnt allowed.

So to say again by not allowing competitive winching removes the biggest threat to spectator safety in 4wd competitions today.

Sam

I agree that winching is dangerous to everybody not just spectators. weather in a comp or not.

I must have explained something the wrong way earlier by you saying other things want change if winching is removed, I agree they want change those things they can happen at any time. But they are still there and could still happen as can a cable breaking.

To date nobody has been hert by any of these things at a comp and I hope that none of them ever do.

But rollovers are more likely to happen if there is no winching. I know myself that if winching my rigs takes out the danger of doing a roll over (not a flop as these don`t bother me much) that I`ll take it if I can`t drive it sensably because my rig owes me to many $$$$ and I can`t afford to distroy it. But if the winching opion isn`t there then I`ll try my hardest to drive it and take the chance. If I had a rig like 1 of yours and didn`t care about it then heck I`d be the same as you, just take winching out, but there isn`t very many people in the comp seen that have that luxoury you are one of the lucky few.

Dam my head herts from trying to work out how to explain what I am thinking.

[grimbo]

I think to take competitve winching out is dangerous as Guts said because it makes people do 1 of 2 things.

1. Attack an obstacle in a manner that they probably wouldn't normally putting themselves, the rig and spectators at a greater risk as the car is being driven outside it s and the drivers normal zone.

2. If they get into a situation which is getting dangerous like a bad side angle they will more than likely in the heat off the moment try and drive out of it with the same results as above.

To get around these problems spectators need to be further back. This is a concern regardless of winching or not. At Tuff truck they are too close. Better spectating areas are needed to let more people see better in a safe environment.

Allow winching but maybe penalise it a bit more. Not enough that people wont do it but enough that a couple of goes at an obstacle is worth it and a winch out of trouble is a last resort

[Screwy]

Hate to ask a stoopid question.....But.........

Is there a definate set date for tuff truck? and is it at the sama location as previous years?

Screwy

[spazbot]

What about if you have winching make it no steel cables plasma only, plasma dosnt recoil and whip around nearly as much as a steel cable would.

[grimbo]

Hate to ask a stoopid question.....But.........

Is there a definate set date for tuff truck? and is it at the sama location as previous years?

Screwy

Have you read this thread. there is no definite date yet. An official announcement will be made in the next couple of weeks

[37inchzook]

if u ask too many question ... go have a look website... there a date confirm there ..

http://www.tufftruck.com.au/

cheers

Zook

[grimbo]

if u ask too many question ... go have a look website... there a date confirm there ..

http://www.tufftruck.com.au/

cheers

Zook

no the dates there are wrong they are from the previous organisers. As Squik has said wait a few weeks until the official announcement. it isn't hard to understand is it.

[Screwy]

Ok cool

[Strange Rover]

By not allowing winching isnt going to make people drive more aggresively. The people who drive with lots of throttle and are prepaired to take the risk of rolling are going to drive like that whether winching is allowed or not - it wont matter to them (Im talking about people like me for instance) and the rest of the people who always winch might drive a bit harder but that will do them good but they will never drive as hard as the rest of us who hate winching period.

Its easy to control the crowd so that they arnt at risc at being hit by a vehicle - very hard to stop thm from being hit by 30 metres of flying winch cable.

Have you guys ever seen what a cable does when it brakes under full load?? Have you though about what that would do if it managed to touch sombody?? It will cut people in half.

So if you allow competitive winching how will you ensure that nobody gets hurt when a cable breaks????

Sam

[Maggot4x4]

So if you allow competitive winching how will you ensure that nobody gets hurt when a cable breaks????

Sam

You can't. But you can make sure everyone is aware of the risks and if need be put a disclaimer at the entrance.

If spectators are then stupid enough to put their own lives in danger by being within 30, 40, 50m of a winching operation then it's no-ones fault but there own.

[beebee]

As far as I am concerned, a winch is a recovery tool to be used haul your sorry ass off the track to make way for others after you DNF. There is no pride to be had after winching your way through a course. The winch is the last resort!

[humphey]

i totally agree bee bee.

[POS]

At the end of the day we are there to DRIVE and obstacles are there to be DRIVEN!!!!

If we want to see who has the BIGGEST and FASTEST winch then we would watch a WINCH CHALLENGE event!

I agree with a few others!

If you CAN NOT DRIVE A OBSTACLE (meaning you and your rig is NOT good enough to conquer that particular obstacle) then thats it DNF and winch your sorry arse out of there!!!

I am not saying that i can drive everywhere and nothing can stop me but i DRIVE a 4wDRIVE to challenge myself and the Rig. I have to winch from time to time but it is only after numerous atempts. In a COMP situation winching should be DNF straight away!!!

[MissDrew]

This was the utterly most dissapointing moment I have ever had as a spectator at Tuff Truck. Dobbin winching that rock after a half hearted attempt.Sam

So sam what you are saying is if it was you and not glen then you would have tried once easy like he did, then got in to it and taken the risk of farking your rig or rolling it on the last stage for the weekend when you could have skipped that stage all together and still won. If you say yes to this then you`ve just got much money.


Don`t get me wrong here guys I don`t "love" winching it shits me when I have to but I still like having the opion there if need be. I like Nissan trials where there is no winching, but it has more breakages and rollovers because of it.

You can`t 100% ensure the saftey of spectators even if there isn`t winching.

Have I seen a winch cable break? Only about 400 times. Its recoils in a straight line, one towards the car and one towards the attachment point, if it has a cable dampner on it (must have in comps) then it shortens the amount it recoils by about half if not more.

[grimbo]

Like I said before spectators are too close regardless if there is winching or not. All it neds is a rig to come off an obstacle at a weird angle under full throttle or for rocks to be thrown from spinning tyres. keep them back and it won't be as much of an issue as long as there are adequate winching spots with minimum winching lengths required.

The event is an all round event covering not only vehicle ability but also driver, spotter and team work and the ability to use your head to win. So if it looks like a winch will be needed to finish something ahead of breaking the vehicle then so be it.

Also surely self recovery is preferral than getting others to recovery you. We have had the problem in club events that the recovery vehicles are getting damaged whilst recovering competitors who were incapable of recovering themselves. The onus of vehicle recovery and risk should be placed primarily on the competitors.

Remember also this is not a rock crawling event but an event that has a variety of terrains to try and attract a diverse range of drivers and vehicles. If we want rockcrawling that is what the rockcrwling events are for. This is so the winch challenge guy can compete against the rockcrawler and the weeekend warrior

[Strange Rover]

So if you allow competitive winching how will you ensure that nobody gets hurt when a cable breaks????

Sam

You can't. But you can make sure everyone is aware of the risks and if need be put a disclaimer at the entrance.

If spectators are then stupid enough to put their own lives in danger by being within 30, 40, 50m of a winching operation then it's no-ones fault but there own.

There is no way any spectator can be expected to move away the length + of a winch cable when there is competitive winching going on. You have the competitors running around setting up the winch as fast as they can and they are not going to wait for the spectators to be moved. And even if you tried to move the spectators you are going to have a lot of trouble - cause people set themselves up in one spot and they dont want to move. And you will never make them move in the heat of the competition.

It is common knowledge that being to close to a winching operation is dangerous. If a cable beaks and hits a spectator everybody is going to go down and it wont be the spectators fault disclamer or not.

Sam

[DIRTY ROCK STAR]

ROLL OVERS AND BREAKAGES = CROWD HAPPY!

CROWD HAPPY = BIGGER CROWDS

BIGGER CROWDS = MORE SPONSORSHIP AND PROFILE

MORE SPONSORSHIP AND PROFILE = BETTER SPORT and DEVELOPMENT

I know im always disapointed when someone winches.
the first year when old mate in the red 40 drove up and over the big rock on mini wiriba the crowd loved it!!!!!
thats the attitude we like!

so lets vote for some of you boys and see some crowd pleasing action, outerlimits style!!!!

[spazbot]

ROLL OVERS AND BREAKAGES = CROWD HAPPY!

= long time waiting for recovery crew to muck around to recover the rig, meawhile crowd gets bored and restless, and the event takes another few hours than expected to finish

[DIRTY ROCK STAR]

yeah i will pay that but in my earlier post about Tuff Truck i suggested using a big ass crane,no TLCC recovery guys! those guys get paid by the hour!

a crane to right them and lift them off the track.

and a roll over should only take a couple of mins.

1 min to tip them back over, 1 min to drag them off the circuit.
the TLCC recovery guys just take too damn long. no wonder they get heckled so much.

[grimbo]

yeah i will pay that but in my earlier post about Tuff Truck i suggested using a big ass crane,no TLCC recovery guys! those guys get paid by the hour!

a crane to right them and lift them off the track.

and a roll over should only take a couple of mins.

1 min to tip them back over, 1 min to drag them off the circuit.
the TLCC recovery guys just take too damn long. no wonder they get heckled so much.

very hard to safely use a crane in some of the events as once again spectators safety will be compromised. You need a lot of clear space to safely use a crane.

As to the Toyota recovery team. yeah they took a while but if they went in full bore and damaged someones car then what happens. They have to ensure that when they recover the car everyone is safe and the car comes out in the condition they start recovering it. It is all well and good to say the competitors will just lump any damage but if the crew were recovering an overturned car in Wiraba and the easiest and quickest way was just roll it over a few times back down the course destroying the body you wouldn't be happy.

Recovering a car on a club trip with a few mates is a lot different than recovering someone elses car with 3000 people standing around 10m away yelling shit at you