Outer Limits 4x4 Board

would be good to try and get better or equl flow/mixture in to the inlet ports

money_killer wrote:would be good to try and get better or equl flow/mixture in to the inlet ports

What better than the stock 60mm hole

It will be cut to match the manifold so not to restrict the flow to 1 a and 6 this is just a mock up not finished. At the end of the day it's a TD42 and the losses from been fully flowed will be minimal.



However if we were doing something like a BMW M3 at a 1000hp then we may consider doing something like this



To replace this sort of thing.

When do you reckon the dieseltec smoko truck will be finished matt?

coxy321 wrote:When do you reckon the dieseltec smoko truck will be finished matt?

Couple off weeks at the most I think nothing complicated left to do, I think Andy is itching for it though, something about a dustbin full of iced water next to the dyno was mentioned.

Quick Matt, hide that blue marking pen before Crayola boy Darren gets hold of it.

awill4x4 wrote:Quick Matt, hide that blue marking pen before Crayola boy Darren gets hold of it.

NP

awill4x4 wrote:Quick Matt, hide that blue marking pen before Crayola boy Darren gets hold of it.

how much just to buy that bit?

brad-chevlux wrote:

awill4x4 wrote:Quick Matt, hide that blue marking pen before Crayola boy Darren gets hold of it.

how much just to buy that bit?

For you $50 all welded up PM if you want it.

matt.mcinnes wrote:

money_killer wrote:would be good to try and get better or equl flow/mixture in to the inlet ports

What better than the stock 60mm hole

It will be cut to match the manifold so not to restrict the flow to 1 a and 6 this is just a mock up not finished. At the end of the day it's a TD42 and the losses from been fully flowed will be minimal.

true fair call

An other kit ready to go out to an Outer regular, he is fabricating his own manifold and skin to keep the costs down to minimum.

This one has end caps for hose tails which reduces the instal cost by heaps.

This is the second generation of Marin's, slightly smaller but not by much we got the 1st one pretty much on the money.

One day I will replace mine with the new smaller version when I have time.

Dry assembled to to make sure all is good.

matt.mcinnes wrote:

brad-chevlux wrote:

awill4x4 wrote:Quick Matt, hide that blue marking pen before Crayola boy Darren gets hold of it.

how much just to buy that bit?

For you $50 all welded up PM if you want it.

sounds fair to me.

next question.

Do you think it would work well if turned upside down and used as the top of the plenum, to even out cylinder to cylinder distribution?

IE: the top of the plenum cut off and that part welded on.

i don't think uneven cylinder distribution is an issue until you are aspirating either propane, NOS or water/meth into the intake air charge.
Even then... on a diesel its not really an issue...

brad-chevlux wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

brad-chevlux wrote:

awill4x4 wrote:Quick Matt, hide that blue marking pen before Crayola boy Darren gets hold of it.

how much just to buy that bit?

For you $50 all welded up PM if you want it.

sounds fair to me.

next question.

Do you think it would work well if turned upside down and used as the top of the plenum, to even out cylinder to cylinder distribution?

IE: the top of the plenum cut off and that part welded on.

I see no reason you could not reverse it. Have a spare one of these to if it helps.



Both for $70

Z()LTAN wrote:i don't think uneven cylinder distribution is an issue until you are aspirating either propane, NOS or water/meth into the intake air charge.
Even then... on a diesel its not really an issue...

i beg to differ on that.


the injector pump puts the same amount of fuel into every cylinder.
if 1 and 6 suffer on air flow, it can only follow that those cylinders will run richer and hotter.

A pyro after the turbo only gives an average temp figure, If you are seeing 500c at the pyro, the cylinders 1 and 6 starving of air will be much hotter then the say cyls 3 and 4.
The pyro might be telling you that temps are ok, but 1 and 6 COULD be far in excess of what is safe.

brad-chevlux wrote:

Z()LTAN wrote:i don't think uneven cylinder distribution is an issue until you are aspirating either propane, NOS or water/meth into the intake air charge.
Even then... on a diesel its not really an issue...

i beg to differ on that.


the injector pump puts the same amount of fuel into every cylinder.
if 1 and 6 suffer on air flow, it can only follow that those cylinders will run richer and hotter.

A pyro after the turbo only gives an average temp figure, If you are seeing 500c at the pyro, the cylinders 1 and 6 starving of air will be much hotter then the say cyls 3 and 4.
The pyro might be telling you that temps are ok, but 1 and 6 COULD be far in excess of what is safe.

If they are rich they will be cooler if the fuel leans out then they will be hotter or do I have it the wrong way round

Yeah i hear ya Brad,

I got nothing more to add on this but im sure the Volumetric efficiency is uniform across all inlet runs so if the air can get into the manifold it will distribute evenly.

matt.mcinnes wrote:
If they are rich they will be cooler if the fuel leans out then they will be hotter.

Thats only the case for a petrol engine Matt, on a diesel the more fuel the hotter it gets.

matt.mcinnes wrote:

brad-chevlux wrote:

Z()LTAN wrote:i don't think uneven cylinder distribution is an issue until you are aspirating either propane, NOS or water/meth into the intake air charge.
Even then... on a diesel its not really an issue...

i beg to differ on that.


the injector pump puts the same amount of fuel into every cylinder.
if 1 and 6 suffer on air flow, it can only follow that those cylinders will run richer and hotter.

A pyro after the turbo only gives an average temp figure, If you are seeing 500c at the pyro, the cylinders 1 and 6 starving of air will be much hotter then the say cyls 3 and 4.
The pyro might be telling you that temps are ok, but 1 and 6 COULD be far in excess of what is safe.

If they are rich they will be cooler if the fuel leans out then they will be hotter.

that contradicts every thing i've read about diesel engines.
More fuel = hotter cylinder and exhaust temps.

Z()LTAN wrote:Yeah i hear ya Brad,

I got nothing more to add on this but im sure the Volumetric efficiency is uniform across all inlet runs so if the air can get into the manifold it will distribute evenly.

It's just my brain thinking about things far to much.

Z()LTAN wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:
If they are rich they will be cooler if the fuel leans out then they will be hotter.

Thats only the case for a petrol engine Matt, on a diesel the more fuel the hotter it gets.

That makes sense I was half right

brad-chevlux wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

brad-chevlux wrote:

Z()LTAN wrote:i don't think uneven cylinder distribution is an issue until you are aspirating either propane, NOS or water/meth into the intake air charge.
Even then... on a diesel its not really an issue...

i beg to differ on that.


the injector pump puts the same amount of fuel into every cylinder.
if 1 and 6 suffer on air flow, it can only follow that those cylinders will run richer and hotter.

A pyro after the turbo only gives an average temp figure, If you are seeing 500c at the pyro, the cylinders 1 and 6 starving of air will be much hotter then the say cyls 3 and 4.
The pyro might be telling you that temps are ok, but 1 and 6 COULD be far in excess of what is safe.

If they are rich they will be cooler if the fuel leans out then they will be hotter.

that contradicts every thing i've read about diesel engines.
More fuel = hotter cylinder and exhaust temps.

To have more heat I thought you had to have more air and fuel, if you have more fuel that will cool things down. You get more heat only if you add more air to burn with it.

But like I said I maybe only half right, leaning out fuel on a petrol is bad as it causes detonation My understanding off Diesel is limited

Andy from Dzltec feel free to pipe in here

my bad, hit the wrong button

Take this example.

Std td42t, amount of fuel and air delivered gives us an air/fuel ratio of 21:1 at full throttle. If we add more fuel we get more power, exhaust emissions ie black smoke and an a/f of say 17:1, exhaust temps will rise.

If we only added 4 psi of boost, we get a minimal increase in power, cooler exhaust temps, it cleans up any smoke and a/f may go to 23:1

If we do both of the above, we end up with more power, the same emissions as before, the same egts and the same a/f ratio.

So the secret to getting good reliable power out of a diesel is change the air side first, then add fuel. Excess air is always good for a diesel.


Andy

matt.mcinnes wrote:To have more heat I thought you had to have more air and fuel, if you have more fuel that will cool things down.

Diesels are the opposite.
Too much fuel = heat build up and higher EGT.

Here is a peek at the BMW M3 S46 laser cut T/B plate

so having a front mount cooler and not being interested in running a water to air, is it going to be worth chopping the top off my inlet manifold and welding on a peice that you have shown matt? anybody tested that sort of mod? to distrubute the air better between the cylinders... i don't have pump mods yet but just waiting on coin.

would be better making some sort of plenium chanmber but i would think the gains would be minimal. better of spending your cash on pump mods i would think

big bundy wrote:so having a front mount cooler and not being interested in running a water to air, is it going to be worth chopping the top off my inlet manifold and welding on a peice that you have shown matt? anybody tested that sort of mod? to distrubute the air better between the cylinders... i don't have pump mods yet but just waiting on coin.

I think gains will be minimal but we will see once the bolt on is complete and compare it to Marin's.
Both Marin's and Busman's will have the same heat exchangers for the intercoolers and although different shapes, should give a good idea if improving the flow helps at all.

brad-chevlux wrote: i beg to differ on that.
the injector pump puts the same amount of fuel into every cylinder.
if 1 and 6 suffer on air flow, it can only follow that those cylinders will run richer and hotter.
A pyro after the turbo only gives an average temp figure, If you are seeing 500c at the pyro, the cylinders 1 and 6 starving of air will be much hotter then the say cyls 3 and 4.
The pyro might be telling you that temps are ok, but 1 and 6 COULD be far in excess of what is safe.

Brad, I think you need to compare what the original manifold looks like where the air has to turn through 90 degrees and the inlet from the turbo is also offset to the rear cylinders as well. then compare it with how we've centralised it to the inlet manifold and cut out the centre section entirely. (for Andy's intercooler)
I think you'll agree our attempt at equalising the air flow is better than original. Bearing in mind the length of the cores is fixed, we can't make them wider they are 392mm long.
Regards Andrew.

you guys are gettin too carried away with what 'seems' to be even airflow...you've got what, 20 psi of boost pressure and only one cylinder at a time taking air, you can get away with murder before airflow becomes an issue, put up some hard data, pyro temps at each cylinder etc....all the dyno results im seeing on here seem to be an 'acceleration cycle' ..lets see some figures after 15 mins of load at peak torque, ie..temp and pressure drop across aftercooler core, and add a delta of 50 degrees ambient, thats the real world testing (that i had years of experience in when i worked in engineering at a diesel oem, testing and modifying engines for aust enviroment) i'm tippin that big chunk of laminova wont cool as well once its hot

tomahawkracefab wrote:you guys are gettin too carried away with what 'seems' to be even airflow...you've got what, 20 psi of boost pressure and only one cylinder at a time taking air, you can get away with murder before airflow becomes an issue, put up some hard data, pyro temps at each cylinder etc....all the dyno results im seeing on here seem to be an 'acceleration cycle' ..lets see some figures after 15 mins of load at peak torque, ie..temp and pressure drop across aftercooler core, and add a delta of 50 degrees ambient, thats the real world testing (that i had years of experience in when i worked in engineering at a diesel oem, testing and modifying engines for aust enviroment) i'm tippin that big chunk of laminova wont cool as well once its hot

Dzltec will be running up to 50 psi I believe, as for air flow, it's as easier to just weld the two together across the width of the intercooler rather than reduce it to a 60mm hole, fabrication is much simpler for us. In the case of Dzltec's 8 core more stable too with the extra weight.

For the bolt on version however we have gone with a 60mm flange so it can be fitted without tig welding. Hence bolt on bolt off for ease of maintenance. If you take time to read through the post before you will see I feel there will be little performance gain between the fully integrated and bolt on version. Marin's was Awill4x4 showing off what we can fabricate Dzltec's is just more practical and running big boost, hence the flange for the bolt on version. Good flow however will always help reduce pressure drop.

As for cooling once hot, well nothing cools as well once hot but, that is where sizing the heat exchanger correctly is very important, the intercoolers performance will not change if this is done correctly.

As for real world testing we have been data logging mine for over 6 months now with the wolf V500, even the weekend before last while aiding in the bush fire relief. Three round bails and the twin axle trailer manage to slow the 2F a little but the intercooler just keeps on flat lining intake temps



We have the test equipment for Marin's so we can start logging his real world too, he flies back in from Perth today for 2 weeks.

As me and Andrew have always said we are going to post our data and not hide anything, something no other intercooler manufacture does, if they work they work if they don't they don't.
Marin's 26% more power and 29% more torque speaks for itself. As for mine well a 2F making 182kw@rw has not gone bang yet