Outer Limits 4x4 Board

ISUZUROVER wrote:

toaddog wrote:
Goes much further than that, Section 79 of Torums
That section covers the offences of drink driving and if you look it up you will see that it just mentions

Offence of driving etc. while under the influence
Any person who while under the influence of liquor or a
drug—
(a) drives a motor vehicle, tram, train or vessel; or
(b) attempts to put in motion a motor vehicle, tram, train or
vessel; or
(c) is in charge of a motor vehicle, tram, train or vessel;
is guilty of an offence and liable to a penalty not exceeding 28
penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 9
months.

Nothing about being on a road or elsewhere etc.
So that means you can get done anywhere.

The act is here http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGIS ... pRUA95.pdf

Out of interest, how is (c) usually interpreted? Inserting the key in the ignition, or the door? (etc?).

e.g. someone who gets in their car in order to sleep it off could be charged under the law.

What used to be known as exculpatory provisions in the old traffic act are now covered in torums S79 subsection 6

(6) Court not to convict if satisfied of particular matters
If on the hearing of a complaint of an offence against
subsection (1)(c), (2)(c), (2AA)(c), (2A)(c), (2B)(c) or (2J)(c)
in respect of a motor vehicle the court is satisfied beyond
reasonable doubt by evidence on oath that at the material
time—
(a) the defendant—
(i) by occupying a compartment of the motor vehicle
in respect of which the offence is charged other
than the compartment containing the driving seat
of that motor vehicle; or
(ii) not being in that motor vehicle, by some action;
had manifested an intention of refraining from driving
that motor vehicle while any of the following
circumstances relevant to a conviction on the complaint
applied—
(iii) the defendant was under the influence of liquor or
a drug;
(iv) the defendant was over—
(A) the general alcohol limit; or
(B) if at the material time the defendant was a
person to whom subsection (2A), (2B) or
(2J) referred—the no alcohol limit;
(v) there was a relevant drug present in the defendant’s
blood or saliva; and
(b) the defendant—
(i) was not under the influence of liquor or a drug to
such an extent; or
(ii) was not, as indicated by the concentration of
alcohol in the defendant’s blood or breath,
influenced by alcohol to such an extent;
as to be incapable of understanding what the defendant
was doing or as to be incapable of forming the intention
referred to in paragraph (a); and
(c) the motor vehicle in respect of which the offence is
charged was parked in such a way as not to constitute a
source of danger to other persons or other traffic; and
(d) the defendant had not previously been convicted of an
offence under subsection (1), (2), (2AA), (2A), (2B),
(2D) or (2J) within a period of 1 year before the date in
respect of which the defendant is charged;
the court must not convict the defendant of the offence
charged.

zagan wrote:

grimbo wrote:

lump_a_charcoal wrote:By the same rationale, a tow truck comes along to pick up a wreck from a crash... Gets pulled over and given a defect notice because the car on the back is unroadworthy - That would never happen, but what is the difference?

um because the vehicle on the tow truck hasn't been modified it is wrecked. A vehicle that has been modified illegally is very different thing. Seriously it isn't hard to figure out. If you car is on a trailer because it is wrecked then unroadworthy isn't an issue, if the vehicle is heavily modified and that state doesn't allow many mods then it's a pretty safe assumption that chucking it on a trailer doesn't suddenly make it roadworthy.

My 1 question to this is prove that the unroadworthy vehicle is on the road.

if you got a fine for it you could take pics, though I couldn't see any copper being that plain stupid to fine people for carting stuff on the back of trailers etc unless it was unsafe loads.

Because what your saying anyone who is carting around a ride on lawn mower should be fined for carting an unroadworthy vehicle even though it's on a rego'd trailer same would happen with boats jet skis and you could go on and on, how ever I could see people getting done for non rego'd trailer's or not paying for the right trailer rego based on tonne carried on trailer etc.

read what I've written.

toaddog wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

toaddog wrote:
Goes much further than that, Section 79 of Torums
That section covers the offences of drink driving and if you look it up you will see that it just mentions

Offence of driving etc. while under the influence
Any person who while under the influence of liquor or a
drug—
(a) drives a motor vehicle, tram, train or vessel; or
(b) attempts to put in motion a motor vehicle, tram, train or
vessel; or
(c) is in charge of a motor vehicle, tram, train or vessel;
is guilty of an offence and liable to a penalty not exceeding 28
penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 9
months.

Nothing about being on a road or elsewhere etc.
So that means you can get done anywhere.

The act is here http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGIS ... pRUA95.pdf

Out of interest, how is (c) usually interpreted? Inserting the key in the ignition, or the door? (etc?).

e.g. someone who gets in their car in order to sleep it off could be charged under the law.

What used to be known as exculpatory provisions in the old traffic act are now covered in torums S79 subsection 6

(6) Court not to convict if satisfied of particular matters
If on the hearing of a complaint of an offence against
subsection (1)(c), (2)(c), (2AA)(c), (2A)(c), (2B)(c) or (2J)(c)
in respect of a motor vehicle the court is satisfied beyond
reasonable doubt by evidence on oath that at the material
time—
(a) the defendant—
(i) by occupying a compartment of the motor vehicle
in respect of which the offence is charged other
than the compartment containing the driving seat
of that motor vehicle; or
(ii) not being in that motor vehicle, by some action;
had manifested an intention of refraining from driving
that motor vehicle while any of the following
circumstances relevant to a conviction on the complaint
applied—
(iii) the defendant was under the influence of liquor or
a drug;
(iv) the defendant was over—
(A) the general alcohol limit; or
(B) if at the material time the defendant was a
person to whom subsection (2A), (2B) or
(2J) referred—the no alcohol limit;
(v) there was a relevant drug present in the defendant’s
blood or saliva; and
(b) the defendant—
(i) was not under the influence of liquor or a drug to
such an extent; or
(ii) was not, as indicated by the concentration of
alcohol in the defendant’s blood or breath,
influenced by alcohol to such an extent;
as to be incapable of understanding what the defendant
was doing or as to be incapable of forming the intention
referred to in paragraph (a); and
(c) the motor vehicle in respect of which the offence is
charged was parked in such a way as not to constitute a
source of danger to other persons or other traffic; and
(d) the defendant had not previously been convicted of an
offence under subsection (1), (2), (2AA), (2A), (2B),
(2D) or (2J) within a period of 1 year before the date in
respect of which the defendant is charged;
the court must not convict the defendant of the offence
charged.

Thanks!!!

So, in plain english, for the young kids who may try it. If you are pissed (in QLD), is it best to:
(a) sleep under your car
(b) sleep in the passenger seat of your car
(c) sleep in the driver's seat of your car, but swallow the keys in order to prove you have no intention to drive home....

Its best to throw the keys in the garden or under a tire ect.

As for having a dedicated comp truck, that just defeats the purpose of being the weekend warrior, see something on the side of the road "hell yeah im so driving over that!!!" then drive home.
I no that i sure as hell dont have the income, nor the drugs to sell to get a desent income, to have a 4b and a car trailer and another 4b without rego to bash through the bush. What happens if you then want to go tackle the old Cape tracks?
The problem is the ruleing of what is legal and wats not. 4wd's get enough crap as it is from policital knob heads who have no idea, and the bmw and porsche ones are on that list too. When these knobs are labeling POS craptivas etc as "big dangerous 4wd's" and trying to ban them from city streets, how are we meant to get a fair legal modifications list.

those rules ahve been in place for along time, probably before recreational 4wding has reached this level. It has nothing to do with people driving captivas as to why these laws are in place.

Why do you think they should have laws in place to allow you do this particular hobby? Why do you think that these tracks etc are there purely to fuel your hobby? They are roads that happen to meet our hobbies outcomes but aren't there for it.

Instead of people just whinging on forums about how unfair it is how about actively doing something about it. have you joined a club and voiced your concerns through your association? Have you contacted your local government member? Have you contacted your state reps? Have you done anything at all about it? Or have you just modded your vehicle illegally anyway because it is all so unfair and I just want to have a big mean truck and play in the mud?

(Ps you is not referring to anyone in particular it is a general reference to anyone whinging about how hard done by they are)

grimbo wrote:Instead of people just whinging on forums about how unfair it is how about actively doing something about it. have you joined a club and voiced your concerns through your association? Have you contacted your local government member? Have you contacted your state reps? Have you done anything at all about it?

point.

I know that there is a method for putting before parliament a proposal for a bill, or something along those lines; and if I remember correctly it must at least be brought to some level of discussion. Has anybody any experience with this, or know what is involved? Something was taught about this back when I was in year 8 at school or something, but way too long ago to remember. Such a document would want to be written well, and very professionally, otherwise it stands no chance of being taken seriously. In fact I think a poorly planned out proposal could in fact burn bridges for any future lobbying.

Grimbo, I honestly cannot see how joining a club will change anything?, but may be a way to make noise; no major difference to being on an internet forum IMO...

Contacting your local rep... People of Ipswich, your local rep is also the Minister for Transport:
http://www.rachelnolanmp.com/


Now this is a sensible point and all raised by Grimbo, but what exactly does one propose, or ask for? It must be very exact and reasonable, any half-cocked attempt will fall on deaf ears (assuming somebody listens anyway).
Are people wanting changes to non-engineering required mod laws, or only changes to the engineering guidelines? Do people want special rule sets like hot rods have? What are people prepared to pay for the process?

being in the club means more voices through a central body, ie the Association of your state or national association bodies

Also Bru on here has gone through another orute of building an ICV (individualy Constructed vehicle) which is allowing him alot different restrictions and guidelines. He has undertaken a lot of research and spoken to relvant people to enable him to build a modded vehicle legally in QLD

I think Government are trying to Nationalise the vehicle modification guidelines. So QLD'ers should get some benefit but NS'welshman will be pulled back. Just what I heard.

You should be able to build a car and get it engineered like in nsw! I heard it can cost thoasands for the certificate tho.

Does anyone have info on the nationalisation of the vehicle modification guidelines?

NCOP guidelines has been discussed many times and been proposed to happen for many years without anything actually happening

I have asked the member above to assist me to find out more about the speculated nationalisation of the guidelines. Will let you know!

Daniel

ISUZUROVER wrote:

toaddog wrote:
Goes much further than that, Section 79 of Torums
That section covers the offences of drink driving and if you look it up you will see that it just mentions

Offence of driving etc. while under the influence
Any person who while under the influence of liquor or a
drug—
(a) drives a motor vehicle, tram, train or vessel; or
(b) attempts to put in motion a motor vehicle, tram, train or
vessel; or
(c) is in charge of a motor vehicle, tram, train or vessel;
is guilty of an offence and liable to a penalty not exceeding 28
penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 9
months.

Nothing about being on a road or elsewhere etc.
So that means you can get done anywhere.

The act is here http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGIS ... pRUA95.pdf

Out of interest, how is (c) usually interpreted? Inserting the key in the ignition, or the door? (etc?).

e.g. someone who gets in their car in order to sleep it off could be charged under the law.

being in possession of the keys can be classed as intent to drive

I think there is two completely separate points that need to be considered here,

1. i.e. patrol on 33" tyres and 2-3' lift.
2. i.e. Patrol on 38' tyres and 6-8' lift.

1. Most people who fit this description will have very little to worry about. (Unless you act like a complete tool)

2. If you vehicle fits item 2 and that’s how you drive you vehicle on the road at any time …. IMO You are trying to stand out. What do you expect?

madog wrote:Potentially, the larger the diameter of your wheels the harder the brakes have to work to stop the vehicle (laymans terms). Larger whells without a brake upgrade can be dagerous.

I had to anwser that seeing as it it way off topic.


yeah true but the larger the tyre the larger the contact patch is when braking and that is what stops a vehicle and also i beleive less chance of locking the tyres up wich can halve braking distances

This was a quote of me I think.

While what you say is true there are other factors like tyre compond, road condition which can affect this contact patch.

More what I was saying with the larger wheel issue, ADR35 does brake fade, heat dissipation, wet testing along with a whole raft of other tests. Larger tyres will affect how the brakes work under these situations, especially regarding fade and recovery times.

No good having a set of brakes that stop well on the first application that have generated enough heat to be useless 200m down the road.

[quote]
1. Most people who fit this description will have very little to worry about. (Unless you act like a complete tool)


Illegal is Illegal! No insurance etc. In NSW you could pay an enginner to sign that off. Same car in QLD is illegal! It's just unfair!
[/quote]

Electoral office just rang me and said they will look into the guidelines for me and let me know who I can speak to about them..... Nice

Will let you know

Dan

good work be interested to hear what they say

grimbo wrote:being in the club means more voices through a central body, ie the Association of your state or national association bodies

Also Bru on here has gone through another orute of building an ICV (individualy Constructed vehicle) which is allowing him alot different restrictions and guidelines. He has undertaken a lot of research and spoken to relvant people to enable him to build a modded vehicle legally in QLD

Unfortunately Grimbo its not that simple, ICVs have a whole list of other things that have to be considered, from my admittedly limited knowledge some of these are no changes at all can be made once its approved and regod and also that there is a 5 year limit on the ICV being legal. I will happily be corrected by someone like Bru who definately has more knowledge in this area.

In relation to the trailer thing imo if its on a trailer you are doing the right thing. Illegally modified or not you are not driving it on the road, when the vehicle is being driven on the road it should be in a legal condition.

Also imo the best way for the sport to survive is for comps and parks to realise that a registered vehicle illegally modified might as well be in the comp or at the park unregistrated. I have a real problem with comps forcing people to keep an illegally modified vehicle competing with rego. Its obvious the laws wont change to allow us the leniancy to modify our vehicles to the level a lot of people want. So why parks and comps are not more interested in engineered mods so that the vehicle is safe and a applicable insurance policy held by the vehicle owner to cover injury etc is beyond me. For what it costs me in rego I could have a airtight insurance policy and not need to be concerned about trailering my vehicle to comps or parks.

SCANAS wrote:

1. Most people who fit this description will have very little to worry about. (Unless you act like a complete tool)


Illegal is Illegal! No insurance etc. In NSW you could pay an enginner to sign that off. Same car in QLD is illegal! It's just unfair!

I have been involved in an accident on 33" tyre and nothing was said, it was taken to the repair shop quoted on, inspected by Suncorp and all repairs were completed ok.

I do under stand that it may have been different if some one was injured

booflux wrote: Also imo the best way for the sport to survive is for comps and parks to realise that a registered vehicle illegally modified might as well be in the comp or at the park unregistrated. I have a real problem with comps forcing people to keep an illegally modified vehicle competing with rego. Its obvious the laws wont change to allow us the leniancy to modify our vehicles to the level a lot of people want. So why parks and comps are not more interested in engineered mods so that the vehicle is safe and a applicable insurance policy held by the vehicle owner to cover injury etc is beyond me. For what it costs me in rego I could have a airtight insurance policy and not need to be concerned about trailering my vehicle to comps or parks.

x2.
All other forms of motorsport can do it so why is it so hard for the 4WD comps?
You don't have to have your speedway/drag/circuit car registered, so what makes the public liability risk any higher for us?

booflux wrote:

grimbo wrote:being in the club means more voices through a central body, ie the Association of your state or national association bodies

Also Bru on here has gone through another orute of building an ICV (individualy Constructed vehicle) which is allowing him alot different restrictions and guidelines. He has undertaken a lot of research and spoken to relvant people to enable him to build a modded vehicle legally in QLD

Unfortunately Grimbo its not that simple, ICVs have a whole list of other things that have to be considered, from my admittedly limited knowledge some of these are no changes at all can be made once its approved and regod and also that there is a 5 year limit on the ICV being legal. I will happily be corrected by someone like Bru who definately has more knowledge in this area.

In relation to the trailer thing imo if its on a trailer you are doing the right thing. Illegally modified or not you are not driving it on the road, when the vehicle is being driven on the road it should be in a legal condition.

Also imo the best way for the sport to survive is for comps and parks to realise that a registered vehicle illegally modified might as well be in the comp or at the park unregistrated. I have a real problem with comps forcing people to keep an illegally modified vehicle competing with rego. Its obvious the laws wont change to allow us the leniancy to modify our vehicles to the level a lot of people want. So why parks and comps are not more interested in engineered mods so that the vehicle is safe and a applicable insurance policy held by the vehicle owner to cover injury etc is beyond me. For what it costs me in rego I could have a airtight insurance policy and not need to be concerned about trailering my vehicle to comps or parks.

granted it may not be the best solution but it is an example of someone actually doing something about the laws in QLD and working with the authourities to find a solution

National code of practice is in force in NSW, not sure where else, the second attempt is open for comment at the moment in QLD, and QLD transport have commited themselves to a august introduction i think. so bye bye all 6 point internal cages once its in, which is why im rushing to get my circuit car done

but then again, weve all been growing old waiting for NCOPs to come in in qld.

have you contacted the parks in question? i thought they would all take you unregistered if you had the correct insurance, basically whats CTP in your rego now...

for circuit racing you need a similar sort of thing

LOVE KE70....

If NCOP are in force in NSW can you tell us if:

1. Is QLD getting same exact same rules? You would think so being NCOP
2. What is the process? Do they have a standard rule book like qld does
now, or can you still put a 4"lift and 35s on and get it enginnered?

Anyone else... what is the NCOP for tyre size or suspension lift?

Thanks
Dan

http://www.pharosalex.com.au/pages/33achome.html

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic168827.php

grimbo wrote:

zagan wrote:

grimbo wrote:

lump_a_charcoal wrote:By the same rationale, a tow truck comes along to pick up a wreck from a crash... Gets pulled over and given a defect notice because the car on the back is unroadworthy - That would never happen, but what is the difference?

um because the vehicle on the tow truck hasn't been modified it is wrecked. A vehicle that has been modified illegally is very different thing. Seriously it isn't hard to figure out. If you car is on a trailer because it is wrecked then unroadworthy isn't an issue, if the vehicle is heavily modified and that state doesn't allow many mods then it's a pretty safe assumption that chucking it on a trailer doesn't suddenly make it roadworthy.

My 1 question to this is prove that the unroadworthy vehicle is on the road.

if you got a fine for it you could take pics, though I couldn't see any copper being that plain stupid to fine people for carting stuff on the back of trailers etc unless it was unsafe loads.

Because what your saying anyone who is carting around a ride on lawn mower should be fined for carting an unroadworthy vehicle even though it's on a rego'd trailer same would happen with boats jet skis and you could go on and on, how ever I could see people getting done for non rego'd trailer's or not paying for the right trailer rego based on tonne carried on trailer etc.

read what I've written.

I did, it's more of an addon rather than a reply to what you wrote.

cool

SCANAS wrote:LOVE KE70....

If NCOP are in force in NSW can you tell us if:

1. Is QLD getting same exact same rules? You would think so being NCOP
2. What is the process? Do they have a standard rule book like qld does
now, or can you still put a 4"lift and 35s on and get it enginnered?

Anyone else... what is the NCOP for tyre size or suspension lift?

Thanks
Dan

Australia has a standard set of road laws came in around 2000.

but each state have addons to the standard laws.

love ke70 wrote:so bye bye all 6 point internal cages once its in, which is why im rushing to get my circuit car done

Road rego-d circuit car?

love ke70 wrote:have you contacted the parks in question? i thought they would all take you unregistered if you had the correct insurance, basically whats CTP in your rego now...

for circuit racing you need a similar sort of thing

Never understood what the difference was between a 4x4 park and a race track re: the rego thing. Essentially the same sort of facilty just on and off road racing. I guess that having officials present at all times, scrutineering all cars before they take the track and having emergency/fire fighting equipment on standby they don't quite fall into the same category, however it's still motorsport on private property. They probably pay a lot more for insurance cover to allow us out there unregistered, but surely this is better than relying on CTP? If of course the customer is willing to accept this in their fees and parks don't go broke.

fat496 wrote:

booflux wrote: Also imo the best way for the sport to survive is for comps and parks to realise that a registered vehicle illegally modified might as well be in the comp or at the park unregistrated. I have a real problem with comps forcing people to keep an illegally modified vehicle competing with rego. Its obvious the laws wont change to allow us the leniancy to modify our vehicles to the level a lot of people want. So why parks and comps are not more interested in engineered mods so that the vehicle is safe and a applicable insurance policy held by the vehicle owner to cover injury etc is beyond me. For what it costs me in rego I could have a airtight insurance policy and not need to be concerned about trailering my vehicle to comps or parks.

x2.
All other forms of motorsport can do it so why is it so hard for the 4WD comps?
You don't have to have your speedway/drag/circuit car registered, so what makes the public liability risk any higher for us?

Um, in motorsports all the race cars etc in Australia at least are rego'd, not as road cars but under CAMS lic/rego.

http://www.cams.com.au/Development/Get% ... Types.aspx

But you can only drive CAMS vehicles at CAMS lic'd tracks or events, doesn't allow you to drive it on the road at all.

yeah road reg'd circuit car

and zagan is correct, cams license covers drivers insurance.

wonder how 4wd parks go about getting cams approved, or is there some other body that will do the same sort of thing for 4wd? ccda or someone?

SCANAS wrote:I have asked the member above to assist me to find out more about the speculated nationalisation of the guidelines. Will let you know!

Daniel

The fedral road laws/details

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/index.aspx

Then you'll need to look at each states laws to find out what the laws are exactly for the state as each 1 is slightly different as they add onto the standard road laws.

Off road place in VIC

http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Venues/VICTORIA.aspx

NSW
http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Venues/NEW ... WALES.aspx

TAS
http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Venues/TASMANIA.aspx

SA
http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Venues/SOU ... RALIA.aspx

NT
http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Venues/NOR ... ITORY.aspx

WA
http://www.cams.com.au/Sport/Venues/WES ... RALIA.aspx

None in QLD though *shrung*