Outer Limits 4x4 Board

macca81 wrote:

TroopiePete wrote:much like Air Bags in a 4x4 - bad idea in my books,
Last thing I want happening when banging along a hard track is the darn thing to go off in my face!
Not that I have ever been told of it happening it's just I don't trust exploding things that much!

what?? can you explain this analogy a bit for me please?

Sorry for the slow delay in replying.
I simply don't like the idea of an Air Bag going off while I am bouncing down a track, I am yet to here of one doing this but I don't want to be the first.
My current 4x4 and my past two did not have Air Bags, not in a hurry to change vehicles so I can have one.
I have worked on several vars with Air Bags, they scare me quite a bit, apart from the cost of replacement the idea that while doing some wiring on the car I could accidentally trigger one is always in the back of my mind, even though I take all of the required precautions.

Call me strange or over cautious but that's just how it is.

But then in a standard road car I agree they are worth having - too many idiots on the road!

TroopiePete wrote:

macca81 wrote:

TroopiePete wrote:much like Air Bags in a 4x4 - bad idea in my books,
Last thing I want happening when banging along a hard track is the darn thing to go off in my face!
Not that I have ever been told of it happening it's just I don't trust exploding things that much!

what?? can you explain this analogy a bit for me please?

Sorry for the slow delay in replying.
I simply don't like the idea of an Air Bag going off while I am bouncing down a track, I am yet to here of one doing this but I don't want to be the first.
My current 4x4 and my past two did not have Air Bags, not in a hurry to change vehicles so I can have one.
I have worked on several vars with Air Bags, they scare me quite a bit, apart from the cost of replacement the idea that while doing some wiring on the car I could accidentally trigger one is always in the back of my mind, even though I take all of the required precautions.

Call me strange or over cautious but that's just how it is.

But then in a standard road car I agree they are worth having - too many idiots on the road!

I think you'd be more likely to be eaten by a croc while having a holiday in cape york than have an airbag go off while 4wding (unless you do hit something hard enough, in which case the airbag deployment will be the least of your issues).

Water contaminated g force sensors which are used to trigger the airbags would definately pose a problem. But again, if you're a modern vehicle with airbags you can bet that if you get that much water in the cabin you've got a bigger issue than the airbags going off.

What about that Yankee video of the red/marone 4b doing a small hill climb when it tips back and lands on the roof. The air bag went off then but prob shouldn't have?

mike_nofx wrote:What about that Yankee video of the red/marone 4b doing a small hill climb when it tips back and lands on the roof. The air bag went off then but prob shouldn't have?

He had alot more to worry about than the airbags. That was also a considerably hard impact. Take the speed at which that thing came back to earth and put it into forward motion and running into a solid wall, I think i'd want the airbags too.

I think american cars up until fairly recently had a different airbag system to what we have always had (SRS, supplimentary restraint system) due to the whole not wearing seat belts thing. Not entirely sure on this though.

Yep, over there the airbags are triggered by much lower impacts/slower speeds, to counter those few people who don't wear seatbelts.

Back on the topic of Automatics...
My 90 Series Prado seemed a little sluggish, often when cold it would have trouble getting up a little slope near home, like the clutch was slipping - if it were a manual, a Mechanic told me to add this stuff to it, cant remember the name but it was an Automatic additive apparently used in may cars, put it in and it worked very well, provided I added it when doing an oil change the problem never appeared again.

Interested to see if anyone else has had this problem.

I have always OWNED manuals, and have considered converting to auto's on a couple of occasion, ie. converting my (then) current vehicle to auto.

The things against the conversion (some of which translate to just OWNING one and not just converting) are:

The cost of the box/torque converter/flexplate in the first place.
Extra cost of trans cooler.
Extra cost of servicing.
The great unknown (autos are a mystery to me!!)
More to go wrong (manuals just have a clutch) patrol 5 sp DOES NOT blow up!!
Need for transfer case gears.
Cost of mods to suit off roading.

Obviously a conversions COSTS more (and more hassle), but even buying a 4b with one already fitted, if you're going to do more than hwy work or the occasional trip on the beach, you're going to to need to do stuff (trans cooler, servicing (at a minimum), transfer case gears, lock up torque convertor for if you are going to use it for more SERIOUS offroad)

Just my 2c worth!!

bigbluemav wrote:I have always OWNED manuals, and have considered converting to auto's on a couple of occasion, ie. converting my (then) current vehicle to auto.

The things against the conversion (some of which translate to just OWNING one and not just converting) are:

The cost of the box/torque converter/flexplate in the first place.
Extra cost of trans cooler.
Extra cost of servicing.
The great unknown (autos are a mystery to me!!)
More to go wrong (manuals just have a clutch) patrol 5 sp DOES NOT blow up!!
Need for transfer case gears.
Cost of mods to suit off roading.

Obviously a conversions COSTS more (and more hassle), but even buying a 4b with one already fitted, if you're going to do more than hwy work or the occasional trip on the beach, you're going to to need to do stuff (trans cooler, servicing (at a minimum), transfer case gears, lock up torque convertor for if you are going to use it for more SERIOUS offroad)

Just my 2c worth!!

i don't understand what your saying big blue, not having a go but don't you service your manual?
what mods to suit off roading?they work well standard
you don't "need" transfer gears and mine come standard with a trans cooler
conversion cost are expensive no matter what your doing

i think you got it in one with this statement

The great unknown (autos are a mystery to me!!)


maybe the doubters should drive an auto off road and then make their mind up.

at the end of the day each to their own

my 2c

cheers steve

Autos don't need transfer gears more than manuals, the gap just widens further once you have gears in an auto though.

There's very few people who have run both autos and manuals who have contributed to this thread. Bigbluemav, you've listing a lot of preconceptions about owning an auto, and they are valid - until you own one.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote: There's very few people who have run both autos and manuals who have contributed to this thread.

I have and I have. I stand by my comments.

That's so deep - in so many levels.

I have had both manual and auto. First was a manual petrol Pajero and the second is a auto petrol Jeep. I cant say I know how to drive a auto off road as I dont use any special tricks at all that said I am constantly impressed by how much easier it makes things. I will stick to autos for my 4wds from now on.

The one thing I dont like though is the reliance on the starter motor... is there any other way to start a stuck auto?

Dexter wrote: The one thing I dont like though is the reliance on the starter motor... is there any other way to start a stuck auto?

pull the starter out in the bush and bodge it up. Being able to clutch start is notthing special

Um, WTF?

Some, but not all, autos can be bump started, (My Gwagen, and trimatics, I believe) but it's not "bump" starting like with a manual - generally, it involves tow starting up to a fair speed.

It should be easier with transfer gears, or maybe with a lockup converter lockable in 1st or 2nd, it might be quite easy, but in general, a good charging system and a fit starter are prerequisites of an auto.

It is a "weakness" of an auto that bump starts aren't as easy.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:Autos don't need transfer gears more than manuals, the gap just widens further once you have gears in an auto though.

There's very few people who have run both autos and manuals who have contributed to this thread. Bigbluemav, you've listing a lot of preconceptions about owning an auto, and they are valid - until you own one.

Steve.

Probably true, but from what I've always read, autos 'run away' on down hills (either lock up converter mod (switch) or transfer case gears to remedy). Again, I always read that the standard trans coolers (most just tubes through radiator tanks) are ALAWAYS the first thing to upgrade to a large, seperate trans cooler (I did this with the only auto that I have ever owned, an XA GT coupe with an FMX auto).

With servicing, my understanding is that they need servicing every 20k or so, while a manual just needs the oil changed every year.

I know that for uphills and for sand driving they are WAY superior.

Just passing on what I have gleaned from threads on auto's over the years, and putting it out there to see if the arguments still stand up.

I'm interested in the auto option as my wife is looking at selling her VZ SS and wants a 100 series (prolly V8 petty and prolly auto!!).

But, I'm always learning new stuff, so I appreciate your response!! At the end of the day, most people have definitive, fairly dogmatic preferences based on their own experiences and what they learn on forums like this!! I like to think of myself as pragmatic however!!

bigbluemav wrote:
Probably true, but from what I've always read, autos 'run away' on down hills (either lock up converter mod (switch) or transfer case gears to remedy).

The trick there is to use the brakes. Best part about brakes are they're generally standard and at no extra cost on new 4bies.

oldmate wrote:

bigbluemav wrote:
Probably true, but from what I've always read, autos 'run away' on down hills (either lock up converter mod (switch) or transfer case gears to remedy).

The trick there is to use the brakes. Best part about brakes are they're generally standard and at no extra cost on new 4bies.

HAHA!! Good one!!

But after having the ultimate control of a manual diesel going down hill, my fear of brake fade would mean that I would invest the money in the transfer case gears in an auto if I bought one.

bigbluemav wrote:
But after having the ultimate control of a manual diesel going down hill, my fear of brake fade would mean that I would invest the money in the transfer case gears in an auto if I bought one.

What ultimate control?

My manual diesel 4.2 GQ was no better than my auto JK, i have to use the brakes in the same way (to slow it down).

bigbluemav wrote:
Probably true, but from what I've always read, autos 'run away' on down hills (either lock up converter mod (switch) or transfer case gears to remedy).

use brakes. brake fade really isnt that likely. you will find that as you drive an auto offroad more you will actualy start driving through your brakes at times anyway

Again, I always read that the standard trans coolers (most just tubes through radiator tanks) are ALAWAYS the first thing to upgrade to a large, seperate trans cooler (I did this with the only auto that I have ever owned, an XA GT coupe with an FMX auto).

depends on the trans. and its not like its an expensive or hard upgrade. i did it on mine just for peace of mind, had not had any trouble previously but it was a just in case scenario. cost less than $50 and took half hour.

With servicing, my understanding is that they need servicing every 20k or so, while a manual just needs the oil changed every year.

nope, just keep and eye on the ATF like you would your engine oil, change it if the colour changes (from overheating) iv NEVER changed mine, altho i intend to do it in the near future, just because it hasnt been done since iv had the car and i dont know when it was last done. the fluid is still in good nick tho.

I know that for uphills and for sand driving they are WAY superior.

spot on

Just passing on what I have gleaned from threads on auto's over the years, and putting it out there to see if the arguments still stand up.

I'm interested in the auto option as my wife is looking at selling her VZ SS and wants a 100 series (prolly V8 petty and prolly auto!!).

But, I'm always learning new stuff, so I appreciate your response!! At the end of the day, most people have definitive, fairly dogmatic preferences based on their own experiences and what they learn on forums like this!! I like to think of myself as pragmatic however!!

any more questions, just ask

bigbluemav wrote:

oldmate wrote:

bigbluemav wrote:
Probably true, but from what I've always read, autos 'run away' on down hills (either lock up converter mod (switch) or transfer case gears to remedy).

The trick there is to use the brakes. Best part about brakes are they're generally standard and at no extra cost on new 4bies.

HAHA!! Good one!!

But after having the ultimate control of a manual diesel going down hill, my fear of brake fade would mean that I would invest the money in the transfer case gears in an auto if I bought one.

You should not get brake fade as you should not be on the brake peddle for a long period of time, the trick is to just touch the brakes on and off pulsing it a bit like anti skid braking work's, in some autos it even helps to feather the accelerator to keep the motor connected to the auto, but obviously it depends on the slope and type of 4x4 - either way if you are getting brake fade you are relying on them far too much.
The idea is to keep the rev's down just feather the peddle to keep the motor from racing.

bigbluemav wrote: But after having the ultimate control of a manual diesel going down hill, my fear of brake fade would mean that I would invest the money in the transfer case gears in an auto if I bought one.

Ultimate control? With what gearing?

My 660cc with 127:1 (manual) gearing will eat your stock geared manual diesel on down a hill. If you play on hills, up or down, or run larger than stock tyres, you always have to ensure you gear the car properly for its application - manual or auto.

I've been very impressed with how well a number of stock auto cars downhill. IMHO it's because they now run quite tight converters and low first gears compared to the "bad old days" of three speed autos and loose converters.

I've also never experienced brake fade, even in my terribly underbraked Gwagen with the rotors glowing red. I'm happy to modulate the brakes to achieve what I want, although more often than not, that's in 3rd low in my car to prevent epic boredom.

Steve.

I have run both auto and manual offroad. Given the choice I will always go auto although I am building one with a manual at the moment only because the auto was hard to get a hold of and even then it may not have been up to coping with the power I want to put through it. I also have an auto as well in another 4wd.

Once I discovered the joys of better gearing all my vehicles be they auto or manual get decent gears now.

I look at at autos in the same way as I look at gears, lockers, tyres and suspension. They are all tools that can add more capability to the vehicle. I ijust don't get the bias some have against autos, particularly when they have never driven them.

The biggest problem with an auto is that like lockers, gears, etc. they can add more capability to the vehicle than the driver has and they end up in situations over their head.