Outer Limits 4x4 Board

It is all usefull information. Maybe I should ammend my formulae for drivetrain/traction and other losses to be a little less aggressive. Since the fueling seems close enough I should also adjust the BSFC calculation to be a little less optimistic.

The trouble is, it cant be everything to every one. Tyres are they coarse of fine tread, balanced or not, drivetrain is it manual or auto on torque converter or off. Even within IDI engine families things are different - the Merc IDI is quite different a different implenentation to the typical jap engines. Direct injection old school is quite different to common rail (in as much as common rail gets the combustion rate close to IDI and the efficiency as good or better than the older lower pressure DI). Multi valve heads flow better typically than 2 valve, swirl inlet ports flow worse than tumble etc etc. Common rail doesnt need as much swirl, so ports flow well, etc...this list goes on.

It gets to the point where the results come out of the sheet as they are and need to be interpreted on the basis of what the assumptions are and how they compare to what is trying to be estimated. So the accuracy will vary from vehcile to vehicle. One critical point is that it assumes a perfectly sized turbine end. An incorrectly sized housing or turbine combo can cause your VE to suffer due to excessive EMP/IMP etc.

The main reason for the spreadsheet was to calculate turbo size, fueling requirements and boost pressures to get the rwkw/tractive effort required for a given application. The spreadsheet also plots the mass flow and boost results on the compressor maps I put in which is really cool. I have about 10 maps that work simultaneously so you can see side by side what to expect instantly by changing values and it is fairly easy to add in a new compressor map. It really helps when you are worried about comp surge, effiency or choke flow.

All good points! ill try and measure emp to get an idea on how efficent
our turbocharger combo is, the only time we get slight surge is real low rpm
and too much right foot once boost is apparent, but hopefully the surge slots
help with all of this. Wish i had more time to play and experiment with
logging data . i would like to build a compound set up and feed some decient
boost into one of these things, the rods,crank are massive! (as you prob all know)

If I was looking at maximizing power on a TD42 (I am not, I am actually going to mod my 1HDFTE for towing a caravan), I would take a good hard look through the huge amount of information regarding the turbo Mercs. They are ALL IDI, Look at OM617, OM605 and OM606. The latter can make crank 750hp (~6000RPM) without having the head off on 38psi. These have an inline pump, so they can really rev. Still, ~900nm, especially from 3L is nothing to sneeze at.....

In the many threads, they discuss everything from fuel flow to injection timing. I am following some terrific threads and there is some awesome info.

There are some threads where they use the VE pump on the older 5cyl 2.5L VW DI diesels and some huge power is also being made there. Search for shadowmaker.

As it is, it appears that 38psi (15:1 AF ratio) and 5000rpm from a ported head, modded cam TD42 should get you all the power you could want and stay with single turbo and stock (perhaps cryo treated and balanced) internals. Seems to me like 400rwkw is possible. I would be looking at exactly what the Mercs are using for turboes on their 3L (or particularly the OM605 2.5L) engines - Search for "Jeemu OM605" He has 707nm and 550hp from the 2.5L Engine @ 38Psi and lists all what he did/used. This way you drop the revs by 25-33% and make the most of the poor little VE single plunger....

As for turbos, one comment that stuck in my mind was that to get the huge power from these mercs without throwing a rod is ensure that the EMP/IMP is no worse than 1.5 and preferably 1:1 or better.

Care to post up a link to those threads. Seems massive power from little engines, but then again you can easily get 1000hp from 6.6 duramax with the right equipment.

Has the data from your spread sheets been transformed into real world figures? How accurate has it been?


Andy

Dzltec wrote:Care to post up a link to those threads. Seems massive power from little engines, but then again you can easily get 1000hp from 6.6 duramax with the right equipment.

Has the data from your spread sheets been transformed into real world figures? How accurate has it been?


Andy

So far all the briefs that i have been given on fuel qauntitys,boost pressure,turbine A/R's etc has all been spot on.

Was asked to dyno a setup a few weeks back that had been setup as per the data and it made within 4% of what was expected.

You are a lucky man to have all that info with its accuracy. Should make future work a walk in the park.


Andy

Dzltec wrote:You are a lucky man to have all that info with its accuracy. Should make future work a walk in the park.


Andy

Andy as you well know,many many hours go into designing and building these pump/turbo combos and if info is available that can get you close to start with then it saves a lot of spanner time. As we have changed the internal characteristics of the engine this time and will be revisiting the fuel management we will see what the outcome is.

Honestly, there are heaps of threads and searching in Google for what I mentioned will give you the results. But anyway......

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/om6 ... t-899.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (now in new thread that hasnt been updated in last week)

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=166311" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(the very first post here states what UGOTNUFN is experiencing on his dyno, this is a VE pumped 5cyl DI VW van engine, also I think near the end there is a link to a youtube vid of a merc he has been working on with the OM606 that has ~ 750HP It did a nuts 1/4 considering the owner/drivers foot was hard on the brakes for the last 100m smoking the front tyres. Exhaust has no black smoke on boost but some of grey/white)

A comment is made "how much fun it is to smoke the tyres when accelerating at 200 kph and pulling away from modern 1000cc motorcycles....."

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/199 ... -1179.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(not updated recently, but I think there are links to OM606 dyno graphs)

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/new ... t-858.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Awesome thread, this guy builds with class and faster that anyone I have seen!!, a really good read and days aways from turning the key - some awesome under bonnet pics. Let down by Chinese turbo but I have a feeling that he will only stay with that for a brief moment, even if not by his choice.......)

There are many others, just need to look

UGOTNUFN wrote:

Dzltec wrote:You are a lucky man to have all that info with its accuracy. Should make future work a walk in the park.


Andy

Andy as you well know,many many hours go into designing and building these pump/turbo combos and if info is available that can get you close to start with then it saves a lot of spanner time. As we have changed the internal characteristics of the engine this time and will be revisiting the fuel management we will see what the outcome is.

Certainly the design should be right first, but I wouldnt say actually making it work reliably is a walk in the park. The other thing I should point out is that I think they already knew what was needed and that this info served to back that up. The amount of time that has been invested on the implementation side has been substantial and is ongoing.

Keep in mind these high power merc motors are all about high rpm. Jeemu is reaching peak torque at 5,200rpm and peak power at 6,000rpm (I have his 530hp chart which is three weeks old). It's not a tune that would work well in a 4wd.
They're also running basically at stoich (15:1) which I think will produce piston melting temperatures on anything sustained. But in a car in Finland you can't sustain 530hp so it's not really a problem.

It's also more smoke than I am comfortable with. I like my engines to run clean.

KiwiBacon wrote:Keep in mind these high power merc motors are all about high rpm. Jeemu is reaching peak torque at 5,200rpm and peak power at 6,000rpm (I have his 530hp chart which is three weeks old). It's not a tune that would work well in a 4wd.
They're also running basically at stoich (15:1) which I think will produce piston melting temperatures on anything sustained. But in a car in Finland you can't sustain 530hp so it's not really a problem.

It's also more smoke than I am comfortable with. I like my engines to run clean.

All true, and I like them clean too - to the point that I want to build an opacity meter for mine. But, Jeemu is making great torque from 4500rpm and we havent seen his latest results which bring torque in a little earlier, albiet probably not much.

It is a 2.5L motor with a turbo that if I recall correctly has something like a 64mm inducer !! I am suprised it makes torque so early - of course the Rich AFR makes for high EGT's = high exhaust energy, but even so, impressive to me at least.

These examples show where the limits are (or at least, that the limits are higher than where he is) and that this is where much learning can be gleaned from injection timing requirements and other mods to support a good combustion event that makes power without blowing the bottom end out of the motor!

BIG12HT wrote:All true, and I like them clean too - to the point that I want to build an opacity meter for mine. But, Jeemu is making great torque from 4500rpm and we havent seen his latest results which bring torque in a little earlier, albiet probably not much.

It is a 2.5L motor with a turbo that if I recall correctly has something like a 64mm inducer !! I am suprised it makes torque so early - of course the Rich AFR makes for high EGT's = high exhaust energy, but even so, impressive to me at least.

These examples show where the limits are (or at least, that the limits are higher than where he is) and that this is where much learning can be gleaned from injection timing requirements and other mods to support a good combustion event that makes power without blowing the bottom end out of the motor!

He said he can pull the AFR meter down to 10 before spoolup.
Even too smokey for him apparently.

I convinced him to come over to 4BTswaps.com and post up a thread on his car. This followed the walk out from superturbodiesel. Gotta love forum politics.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthrea ... rbo-engine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ok engine is together,we are about 4 weeks away from getting the car together and then hitting the dyno again.We have revised the fuelling for this combo and time will tell.

I am in the process of implementing a "high speed lean out" via the aneroid to control EGT's on those long 100 odd K stages. My thoughts are to reduce boost fuel via a controller to lose a few CC from the top end fuel without sacrificing too much power.

Thoughts??

Good idea , the last thing you want to do in a race is have to lift your foot!
so being able to hold it to the boards and control top end fuel
(manually /Preset) would see benifits. we did the same as we had cooling
troubbles and we have a extensive cooling system, so we put water
squirters on the rear mounted radiator to keep it under control on those hot
days, it used to piss me off having to lift foot because the thing was
getting to 110 -115 Deg .These little things effect in more ways than just
time due to backing off , Mental state! if you implement things to control
extremities/cooling/top end fuel the driver will be at more ease rather than
worrying about EGT's or coolant temps!

You will loose power by doing that, but there is nothing else you can do. It is easy to do and can be done via an in cab adjuster with pre determined settings. Maybe a bit more boost will also help in the long run situations.

Andy

Ultimately an electronically controlled injection pump will give you all these options and more.
But first, is such a pump easily sourced and second, can it be sealed up well enough for these conditions?

KiwiBacon wrote:Ultimately an electronically controlled injection pump will give you all these options and more.
But first, is such a pump easily sourced and second, can it be sealed up well enough for these conditions?

Not an option for this truck AKAIK, even the "electronic" TD42 pumps are really limited to controlling timing (I think..).

Besides, it is against the build philosophy which mandates a reasonable "mechanical where possible" approach.

Now for my 1HDFTE on the other hand......

Dzltec wrote:You will loose power by doing that, but there is nothing else you can do. It is easy to do and can be done via an in cab adjuster with pre determined settings. Maybe a bit more boost will also help in the long run situations.

Andy

Yes we realise that, but as we have a rising rate /RPM fuel setup a little no boost at higher RPM will result in sustained RPM/reduced max torque (not always required at high speed lower load conditions) it will result in lower EGT's which will mean higher sustained RPM for longer. Its all acompromise to a final result.

STARTING AND FINISHING AND BEING COMPETITIVE IN BETWEEN

Given that most outfits now use an EGT sensor, it wouldnt be hard to have it activate a relay once a certain EGT has been met - there are digital EGT gauges that have a programmable output (ie to drive a buzzer or light). I dont think you need to even go to that extent....relays are readily available with a built in transistor based amplifier that will cause it to switch on a few mA.

On sustained runs, that when the egts get high because of the ever reducing heat soak over time which normally keeps them cool. So, might serve the same function and not need manual switches to activate the auto function and avoid some complexity etc.

You could build your own two stage control for the compensator with a air
toggle switch and needle valve to vent pressure - less fuel and switch it the
other way and have full pressure / full fuel , all could be set on bench to
adjust compensator to suite.simple air lines and air toggle switch not much
to go wrong there and all is mechanical too

sswaffie wrote:You could build your own two stage control for the compensator with a air
toggle switch and needle valve to vent pressure - less fuel and switch it the
other way and have full pressure / full fuel , all could be set on bench to
adjust compensator to suite.simple air lines and air toggle switch not much
to go wrong there and all is mechanical too

Thats the plan, some bits on order from Germany

Soon as they are here i will set it all up.

I've been following this thread closely. Very interesting stuff fellas, keep it coming.

gu town wrote:I've been following this thread closely. Very interesting stuff fellas, keep it coming.

We will mate dont worry,got a few more changes in mind as well!!

UGOTNUFN wrote:

sswaffie wrote:You could build your own two stage control for the compensator with a air
toggle switch and needle valve to vent pressure - less fuel and switch it the
other way and have full pressure / full fuel , all could be set on bench to
adjust compensator to suite.simple air lines and air toggle switch not much
to go wrong there and all is mechanical too

Thats the plan, some bits on order from Germany

Soon as they are here i will set it all up.

I still think you could have developed the TD42 more without resorting to changing to a Merc OM606....

Just kidding

I have often thought about a 2 stage Aneroid and why no one has done it.....looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

I think it was Joel (PGS4X4) who had mentioned an in cab Pneumatic switch for his compensator, did he do it?


Great tech thread fellas..although I've had to read it a few times to get it to sink in!

I lost hours of my life reading about those crazie finn's and the merc's
Im seriously thinking bout variable geometery turboing a td42 and running
a aftermarket computer to electronically controll wastegates , boost compensator , Turbo,
ETC , and also have fuel cut- EGT compensation ,and also to controll the blue bottle , back to the drawing board!

sswaffie wrote:I lost hours of my life reading about those crazie finn's and the merc's
Im seriously thinking bout variable geometery turboing a td42 and running
a aftermarket computer to electronically controll wastegates , boost compensator , Turbo,
ETC , and also have fuel cut- EGT compensation ,and also to controll the blue bottle , back to the drawing board!

I hope to have my own vgt controller proven in real world conditions in the next 6 months. But knowing how long it takes me to get stuff done, could take twice as long - by then you could probably buy something better off the shelf. Once my engine is in and running and pitted, I will start the project again.

Actually, I believe there is already a relatively inexpensive VGT controller now available in the USA off the shelf, cant remember the name though. While these VNT turbos can potentially make a big improvement, if using say a GT37, you can only tighten the exhaust so much before backpressure robs your VE and increases pumping losses. What I mean is, dont expect miracles at 1000rpm. While you might get 2 psi at idle, probably has 40psi backpressure

You can get a huge improvement though - not trying to undersell it, I think it is where it is at. And, no wastegate needed.

I will start my own thread on this in a few weeks.

BIG12HT wrote:

sswaffie wrote:I lost hours of my life reading about those crazie finn's and the merc's
Im seriously thinking bout variable geometery turboing a td42 and running
a aftermarket computer to electronically controll wastegates , boost compensator , Turbo,
ETC , and also have fuel cut- EGT compensation ,and also to controll the blue bottle , back to the drawing board!

I hope to have my own vgt controller proven in real world conditions in the next 6 months. But knowing how long it takes me to get stuff done, could take twice as long - by then you could probably buy something better off the shelf. Once my engine is in and running and pitted, I will start the project again.

Actually, I believe there is already a relatively inexpensive VGT controller now available in the USA off the shelf, cant remember the name though. While these VNT turbos can potentially make a big improvement, if using say a GT37, you can only tighten the exhaust so much before backpressure robs your VE and increases pumping losses. What I mean is, dont expect miracles at 1000rpm. While you might get 2 psi at idle, probably has 40psi backpressure

You can get a huge improvement though - not trying to undersell it, I think it is where it is at. And, no wastegate needed.

I will start my own thread on this in a few weeks.

After our first trial of the GT37 with a controller i believe i may have a solution that may work BIG12HT.

I will get one we can work with.

The holset VGT turbos would be a suitable size for a TD42. T3 flanged and quite cheap inside the states.

"Im seriously thinking bout variable geometery turboing a td42 and running
a aftermarket computer to electronically controll wastegates , boost compensator , Turbo,
ETC , and also have fuel cut- EGT compensation ,and also to controll the blue bottle , back to the drawing board!"

You are not the first to think of it, a basic motec or any efi system will work. Its just a matter of putting it all together and putting your money where your mouth is so to speak.

The blue bottle works, they just cost a lot to fill and are not legal on the road. If only we could have a basic unit that had 5 outputs, all user definable, working off revs and boost or tps, that allowed us to plot a 3d graph to control boost, aneroid control, water meth, nos, gas, even have a rev limiter and all egt deratable, now that is something worth organising.

Vnt or vgt could be done by this as well, however it will take alot of proving before I hand over to a single turbo after having compounds on a auto td42.