Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hulsty wrote:What you putting it in Hamo? I too hope to get one once the $$$$ are ready.

96 80 series 1hdft auto 3" beaudesert exh safari intercooler & snorkle
About to change the dump pipe with the ceramic coated 1 on page 1
and tune it up

hotgemini wrote:

chris12ht75 wrote:I will share some stuff on here but not to much as when i was doing my build no one was really interested in helping me or wanted to share specs. I'f Graeme needs the specs i'll give them to him via email but sorry i aint putting them on the forum. yeah sorry about the piston size, it is 60 thou oversize which is a bees dick shy of 1.5mm.

I've come across this a few times on different forums and it strikes me as petty, small-minded and childish. I found a shortage of readily available quality information and therefore I'm going to 'punish' those who come later by perpetuating that shortage.

Take a deep breath, a step back and a good hard look at yourself imho. why not be the better person and start establishing a public knowledge-base on the topic. Chances are that if you start, others will come later and build upon it.

I understand if he's put the work in then its up to him and you don't give away something you're tryin to sell.

I question that last video about how clean the exhaust was.
Seems like there was a HUGE puff of smoke when chaning gear or giving it a slight tap on the throttle and then the revs climbed very slowly, so ofcourse its not going to puff if you don't kick it in the guts.

Take a movie of it being worked from idle through the gears like it would be driven on the street.

To give you an idea, I have a very slight puff of smoke when you blip the throttle, 1st gear is clean, 1nd gear is a bit smokey, third gear is clean as is fourth and fifth. That is with giving it stick from the lights, or cruising at 110 and mashing the loud pedal in 5th it lifts and takes off without a puff or hesitation.

Howdy blokes,

Just stumbled across this thread.

It's my vehicle used as the test bed if anyone wants to ask anything.

What Dieslex claims is spot on - we where there together when the dyno run was done.

Doubting South - Yep - fair observation. I think Dieslex had pointed out I'd been a bit over zealous with the off boost adjustment just prior to the dyno run and not had time to change it back beforehand. I had to be careful to not smoke out the cars behind on take off :-( and was hoping Mr Plod wasn't being too diligent about air quality checks. That was simply the rearwards screw in one turn too far. It's out again and doing fine.

The point Dieslex was making was more about no smoke at full boost. Seeing the ol'd girl bucking on the dyno at 1600rpm pushing 450nm with no smoke was some sight.

I did a run down to Bunbury today, with plenty of 110kmh cruising. Not too many long hills on that run, but none of them found the veggiecruiser wanting. Sure I had to give it a bit more throttle to keep up the speed, but no where did I have to hold my foot flat like I used to, and the EGT's are 100°C less up the longest drag. Because of what I saw at the dyno, I KNOW there is no smoke even up these long hills, and that's a good thing. BTW, the fuel screw is wound right out. Boost is 21psi max, but I don't drive there very much. no need to.

I think Dieslex has mentioned it, but the thing I like is being able to stay in the boost range as I change up through the gears. No longer do I need to rev it up before changing gear to stop that drop off in boost. Now, it's 2500rpm and up to the next gear, punch a bit of throttle and away we go again - whistling away. Nice.

Happy to answer questions, but I'll pretty much be repeating what Dieslex has said, just from a different perspective.

Tim

Do you stil get around the average fuel economy mate?

rowenb wrote:Do you stil get around the average fuel economy mate?

Kind of.

Fuel consumption has never been terrific with this engine, never got the 10km/l I hear about from others.
My average has always been around 7 km/l and it hasn't changed with the turbo, which I assume the question is about. The engine breathes better, so I assume it is more efficient.

It does change with increasing fuel supply and running on veggie; you can't go harder and faster using the same quantity of fuel.....


I'm getting timing adjusted soon to assist with better economy on veggie,

Tim

@ South, as Tim said, the point of that video was to show smoke on boost.

It really has to be taken into perspective. Alot more fuel than stock is going in - the car makes about the same power at the wheel at 1600 rpm as a stock 12HT does at it max!

I will take a video hopefully this weekend of the car taking off at full tilt. That will give a much better idea.

While doing a google search for this post, I came alog a dyno result for the 12HT which looks like every othet std one.

The link is at then end but the data is as follows"

Quote"

12 HT Dyno result
Hi guys, just thought I'd dhare my results of yesterday's exercise.

I've been playing with my 61 to bring it back up to good condition, and yesterday got the injectors done, and a dyno tune.
Came out as follows :

km kW RPM Boost
50 47.8 2170 7 (Note from Dieslex - we have about 86 here)
70 49.4 2490 7
90 57.1 2960 7.5 (Note from Dieslex - we have about 91 here)
100 64.6 3190 7.5 (Note from Dieslex - we have about 96 here)
110 61.8 3470 7.5

Asked the guys to up the boost a couple of psi, but the tech reckons that the boost isn't adjustable ??

I need to re-read Carts(?) thread on getting a few more horses out of the motor.

It absolutley pulls like a freight train , but I would like a few more horses for towing my boat comfortably.

Might post some pics later .....

Cheers

Dave

End Quote"

http://outerlimits4x4.com/ol3/viewtopic ... &view=next" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have the following client responses for a turbo I shipped to Canada a few weeks ago.

Early days (only been on car two days) but all good. It should be noted that the 1HDT equiped 80 series auto has intercooler, 3" exhaust, CT26 with 7MGTE compressor wheel @ 20psi boost (which really is an excellent mod already) and water/meth injection (not used for testing. He did all work himself, so he knows how to spin a spanner if you get my drift.

No other changes were made at all, just changed the recently rebuilt high flowed CT26 in perfect condition with mine.

Here is what he said *DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY*

QUOTE

"I just wrote out a long email and my computer froze up on me right before I could send it. So this is going to be a bit shorter.

I only had a short chance to test it out today but I can already say that it's awesome. It really wants to build boost with almost no effort. I think it's safe to say thai out is at least 2 psi higher than the 7 M compressor wheel could make at every rpm. When I stomp on it the needle just flies."

And *YESTERDAY*

Just a couple of things I noticed on my short drive to work when I finally got the chance to get the TC locked up and load it up a bit at lower rpms.

7M compressor @ 1400rpm = 5psi
New turbo @ 1400rpm = 10psi

7M @ 1500rpm = 10psi
New @ 1500rpm = 15psi

I keep running out of road before I can get beyond 1500rpm in top gear! Might take a bit of a "detour" on my way home this afternoon to see if I can put down a few numbers between 1500-2000 in top gear.

In most city driving situations it's hard to get the TC locked up at low rpm and really load it up because if I step on it too much it wants to downshift. There's only 1 good hill on my drive that allows me to recreate the right conditions each time.

The only other thing I want to test before I start tuning is to see how it holds boost at high rpm. For reference, the 7M comp would hold 20psi to 3600rpm then would start to lose it.

I'll keep updating you as I discover more, and I'll do a write up in a few days once I have some real numbers to back up the claims! I'll be sure to link the threads - you deserve some attention for this!

Can I add another ???

END QUOTES

So I am very happy and some detail will come over the next week. I love it when a plan comes together!

I really cant wait till I get some spare cash together to try one of these on my 13BT.

Without knowing the measurements or housing size etc..
It would be really awesome to see a pre and post turbo Pressure graph before and after the turbo.
Also egt's pre and post turbo I think are a good measurement to.
Sounds very promising though.

Graeme, can you add links to any thread on 1H8MUD for us, cheers.

I am in the same boat as Hulsty at the moment, itching to get a turbo and intercooler onto my 105series , cant justify the cash at the moment

Something like this?






Ill start another thread for it, but we will be finishing off the 100s i talked about in another thread with an upgraded front mount this week.
Dyno graphs to come.

80's_delirious wrote:Graeme, can you add links to any thread on 1H8MUD for us, cheers.

I am in the same boat as Hulsty at the moment, itching to get a turbo and intercooler onto my 105series , cant justify the cash at the moment

I can justify it easily!! But the money tree hasnt sprouted yet, gonna try and sell some stuff me thinks.

Northside 4x4 wrote:Something like this?

mate, if mine had that sticker on the top of my timing belt cover I would be a happy man

No 1HD-FTE for me mines a HZJ105, so 1HZzzzzzzz.

When it happens, I will be using the biggest front mount I can fit in, the grinder will probably make an appearance to help with shoehorning one in, I cant see enough benefit in water to air intercooler to bother with the extra complications.

I'd be interested to see hard data to convince me otherwise

and Hulsty, similar deal mate, if the money tree would get going, its a lot easier to justify it hmmm, wanna buy some of my stuff Hulsty

Oh sorry, one of these then.





The benefits are pretty big to water to air. Especially in 4WD applications.
I could go into great detail regarding why, but I wont. Unless you want me to write an entire article on it lol.

Northside 4x4 wrote: The benefits are pretty big to water to air. Especially in 4WD applications.
I could go into great detail regarding why, but I wont. Unless you want me to write an entire article on it lol.

I'm always keen to learn more and read others opionions, when you have time if you can write some up.

Myself I have a PWR water to air intercooler barrel. I dont find it to bad, its small though especially now that I am pushing past 20psi out of my current CT26.

I found a Dyno Dynamics dyno in Perth, not far from me that I called yesterday and asked if they could do a 070 ramp rate. They said its a far bigger ramp ratio than they normally use, but sure.

They said they would do AFR if I supplied the sensor (because the diesels kill the sensors). I have one, so just need to ensure the connectors are the same (mine is a Bosch unit).

I will test whatever I can anyway.

The reality though - as far as EGT, they are safe. As far as exhaust opacity, its excellent. So what that tells me is the base VE is OK, in turn telling me that whatever the IMP/EMP ratio is, it is OK. You can measure to the cows come home, and I do like measurements, but at the end of the day, there are some other key parameters that point you in the right direction as mentioned. All the boost in the world wont reduce opacity if mass flow isnt increased as a result. High IM Temps robs overall VE and excessive EMP vs the IMP robs the base VE by reducing scavenging efficiency, so really when smoke and EGT's are measured and they are good (or excellent) it can get a bit academic. Nevertheless, I will take measurements when I am reasonably able to.

Dieslex wrote:I found a Dyno Dynamics dyno in Perth, not far from me that I called yesterday and asked if they could do a 070 ramp rate. They said its a far bigger ramp ratio than they normally use, but sure.

They said they would do AFR if I supplied the sensor (because the diesels kill the sensors). I have one, so just need to ensure the connectors are the same (mine is a Bosch unit).

I will test whatever I can anyway.

The reality though - as far as EGT, they are safe. As far as exhaust opacity, its excellent. So what that tells me is the base VE is OK, in turn telling me that whatever the IMP/EMP ratio is, it is OK. You can measure to the cows come home, and I do like measurements, but at the end of the day, there are some other key parameters that point you in the right direction as mentioned. All the boost in the world wont reduce opacity if mass flow isnt increased as a result. High IM Temps robs overall VE and excessive EMP vs the IMP robs the base VE by reducing scavenging efficiency, so really when smoke and EGT's are measured and they are good (or excellent) it can get a bit academic. Nevertheless, I will take measurements when I am reasonably able to.

holy TLA batman too many TLAs (Three Letter Acronym) in there. is IMP intake manifold pressure? EMP exhaust manifold pressure? the rest I got cheers

Northside 4x4 wrote:
The benefits are pretty big to water to air. Especially in 4WD applications.
I could go into great detail regarding why, but I wont. Unless you want me to write an entire article on it lol.

hey Mr northside, a full article would be great, thanks for offering

but seriously, a brief summary would be good too.

cheers

LOL (theres another one)

Yes, your right as you said. Its just so labourious to type them all out.....

80's_delirious wrote: holy TLA batman too many TLAs (Three Letter Acronym) in there. is IMP intake manifold pressure? EMP exhaust manifold pressure? the rest I got cheers

Tell them to harden up about the sensor Diesles It doesnt kill them any quicker than petrol does (if not slower due to the reduced temp)
If you use them on a petrol afterwards, it brings them up nice and clean again anyway.

As for bosch sensors, well thats a whole other kettle of fish. But any new bosch sensor I have brough in the last almost 2 years has been manufactured at the new plants, and they are absolutely wrong on diesels (but ok on petrol for some reason) I am paying for these sensors to get tested independantly right now, so ill share these results when I receive them back.

If not for old stock of sensors I would have had to buy new analyzer to read the NTK type sensors.

Yeah alot of shops question why ramp of 070 when they normally run 100 or even 150 (some of the diesel chip dyno's i have seen have been as high as 200!)
It puts more load on the engine, gives a more detailed AFR graph and shows true egt acceleration, not just a delayed figure kind of thing.

Ok some of my arguments for a water to air system.
Shorter Inlet Pipe Length for faster boost response.
Reduced Chance of Damage to exposed pipework outside of engine bay.
Excellent prevention of Heat spikes due to high outlet temp
Superior cooling at vehicle speeds lower than 100kph.
Radiator surface area generally covers far less of the radiator than a properly sized air/air core.
As water cools roughly 4 times better than air, it can be made much more compact for the same results.

All true info, but:

* a 4.2L engine at 2000rpm consumes near 70L/Sec, even 10L of plumbing and intercooler is 0.14 of a second to fill and that is vs zero volume. Of course there is always a few litres between the turbo and the valves on even a non intercooled engine, so its not a huge difference.

* A front mount has no electronics or coolant and just works

* As for being in front of the radiator, well if both are in front of the radiator, they will both be putting the same heat load removed from the system into the aircon condesor and radiator right behind it. In fact the temperature of the air on average will be higher coming from the water to air system, because its cross section is smaller, slightly reducing the efficiency of the radiator and other heat exchangers that might sit behind it.

* Far less expensive and almost no maintenance.

* the std engine fan draws alot of air through the intercooler if setup properly (sealed with foam on edges) Twin thermos can be installed at a cost of less than $50/ea can be fit to a typical 600*300 A/A core giving the same type of lower speed efficiency as the water to air. And if they fail, the intercooler still works.

* Water to air is better in my opinion at high pressure ratios, especially because there are less fittings to leak air and because of the heat capacity of water being so high.

I personally think water to air is excellent and technically better, I fluffed about for ages and was going to go that way on my 1HDFTE, even bought a few things just to do that, but decided for the above reasons to go with air to air with a 700mm wide core (same width as radiatior). Not installed yet as too busy on other things..... If I was going above 25psi on my FTE, I would do it (I had leaking fittings on my old 80 when running above about 23psi....) but I figure I probably wont be going that high until I can find a way to totally max out the injector pump.

Anyone able to make it do 140cc??

Northside 4x4 wrote:Ok some of my arguments for a water to air system.
Shorter Inlet Pipe Length for faster boost response.
Reduced Chance of Damage to exposed pipework outside of engine bay.
Excellent prevention of Heat spikes due to high outlet temp
Superior cooling at vehicle speeds lower than 100kph.
Radiator surface area generally covers far less of the radiator than a properly sized air/air core.
As water cools roughly 4 times better than air, it can be made much more compact for the same results.

What my main point about being infront of the radiator was, is that the intercooler will cover 75% of it or there abouts.
The radiator I would use for a standard street car would cover maybe 40%.

I think with the time to reach full boost above the boost threshold argument, this is something that has to be felt as math's doesnt always hold up in this situation.
I have driven a number of patrol's with safari front mounts, then our top mount. And I could notice a substantial difference in throttle response at all RPM.

Below is another fine example, I built this vehicle about 2 years ago and the on/off/on throttle response between what it was, then water to air was phenomenal.
Nothing you can substantiate with hard facts or dyno print outs, but on the street and track transforms the way the car behaves.
Bit dirty



Both have merits, no doubts about it and it basically comes down to what is going to work for that particular vehicle.
Hell we still use and sell ALOT of air/air kits, so im not saying its water way or the highway

For Example

Great.

Now I would be grateful can you tell me what the best you have had out of a stock 1HDFTE except exhaust and intercooler and chip? Also, if turbo changed that is fine. Dyno curve, AFR?

I have one so I have a vested interest. The point of the question is fuel delivery..... I want to know what your experience is with these because there is no point me building a setup to burn 140cc but no chance of getting it.

My intercooler with 700mm core has tanks on each side of the radiator so they dont act as a dead spot for the radiator. My car is auto, so the huge intercooler volume shouldnt affect me much.

Never really wound a 1hd-fte up to be honest. All the ones I tune are for towing etc... so i set them all up very mildly.

That is one with just an exhaust and unichip. Standard intercooler. But a new cooler (much smaller than you are using is in there and ready for tuning tomorrow)

Ignore the AFR from the red graph, that is what I mentioned about new Bosch sensors reading like shoddy crap.
Standard they are around 23-24:1 fuel ratio at full boost.
Blue graph is exhaust and removing the intake manifold for acid dipping (cleaning out all the carbon)
Green is a couple of PSI + Timing
Black is a little bit of fuel.
Thats how most of mine are setup to be honest, I know they can handle alot more but it just doesnt meet the needs of my customers to tune them that way.
Ive had a couple up around 170kw, which they did quite easily.





When I get the urge to play around with lots of power I get into tune things like this.
Just couldnt get traction with those little tyres on it Shame, power was still going verticle with 600rpm left to go.

over 600kw's, even at the flywheel, what sort of ttv8 is in that hilux?

Just a mild 2UZ-FE. twin garrets, set of warm cams, little bit of porting, and some forged pistons.
Rest of the motor is stock.

Thanks for posting that.

Actually I havent fitted my intercooler yet, its all bone stock except boost fuel cut clamped and running ~ 1.1 Bar with electronic boost controller.

I get 132kw @ 4 wheels. That seems to be a good result considering all Ive done is max out the std electronics.

I would post the dyno image but cant work out how to do that....

I did have a chip on it at one stage, and it could pull a very full 21' Bushtracker caravan (comforatble more than 3.5t....) up most hills in, wait for it.......5th on the auto!!! It was amazing. I tuned it as I drove, and just kept increasing the fuel until it could stay at 90km/h in 5th all the time :-) OK, not very scientific but it was fun (until the auto died, that wasnt as much fun 800km from home......). As far as engine though, the oil was petrol clean when I got to Esperance (from Perth), so it didnt get all sooted up from the extra fuel. I ran 1.15Bar at the time.

I hope to get the chip back on there after the cooler and exhaust is done and will then play with petrol injection. I have since fixed the auto (didnt take me long and was cheap - only blew out the main drive pack) and fitted a shift kit (awesome transformation, wont blow now!)

Yesterday I was told that Chipit have a 1HD-FTE non intercooled, stock turbo doing 270hp @ wheels. My source is lets just say, 100% reliable..... It MUST have petrol injection although he thought it didnt - its Chipits development car for FTE stuff. Apparantly the 390kkm engine is now being rebuilt. I am not clear as to whether it is because it got damaged or they are checking to see what the internals look like after a few of thos runs.

Anyway, 270hp @ wheels no intercooler is frying my brain, I just cant really make head or tail of it

Just finished the tune on the 100s.
nice and lean 21:1 fuel ratio @ 17psi. Made 128kw at 4 wheels.
Will post dyno graphs up later on.