Discussion on Engineering and Tuff Truck

[RUFF]

Bill,Larry and any others that are continuing to question how TTC is running. Maybe you guys need to direct your Questions to the correct parties. The organisers of TTC. Or the CCDA. Outerlimits is not place to make assumptions.

["CANADA"]

hey get out there and get some atomization thru that rover ruff...
does haultech have a booth girl thats the only engeneering i need to see at ttc

[Strange Rover]

You pair are totally off the ball. What do you guys think that the Tuff Event guys have no idea of what they are doing and are running this thing without proper insurance. What do you think that they dont care if this all turns to shiat and everybody gets sued and looses their houses and all their worldly possessions.

For petes sake - get a brain. Read everything in this thread and then go and read everything on the tuff truck site and try to get a concept of what the tuff event guys are trying to make happen here.

daddylonglegs - what you are saying in your last post is EXACTLY the same crap you said in your post before that. What do you want me to say exactly the same thing again. How many more times are you going to repeat this??? If your going to continue posting in this thread a least keep the discussion moving cause Im wasting my time explaining the same shiat over and over again.

Now for the last time - my understanding is that having the vehicles road legal is not a requirement of the insurance. All the rigs are obviously not road legal. They never have been at this event and they probably never will.

Now even if you have no idea of how this event is being run you could probably take a fairly good guess that everything is being run above board!!!! Have a look at the sponsors and the land owners and the organisers of this event (especially the sponsors!!!!) Do you guys really think that any of these people would touch this thing if it wasnt totally above board.

Larry - what makes you so sure that this event is run and insured through CCDA. I dont see it that way. I think its just run in accordance with some of the CCDA vehicle spec rules to give some basis to what sort of vehicles they want. The vehicle obviously arnt CCDA compliant and the nature of the event obviously isnt rule under CCDA rules. I wouldnt think CCDA would touch this and for that matter Tuff Truck is probably bigger than CCDA so I think they would just look after themselves.

Sam

[daddylonglegs]

Sam, In my last post I didn't ask you personally to respond whatsoever. In fact your previous responses have been a bit vague at best and I was rather hoping for a more qualified opinion from someone with a little less emotional attachment to the event and a little more knowledge regarding the legal issues. Larry's post is a good start and you quite frankly HAVE not come up with any proper argument to dispel the doubts.
I dont care who you are, Just because your ""understanding'' of the rules is this or that, doesn't make them fact.
Bill.

[-Scott-]

Read everything in this thread and then go and read everything on the tuff truck site and try to get a concept of what the tuff event guys are trying to make happen here.

Did that.

Now for the last time - my understanding is that having the vehicles road legal is not a requirement of the insurance. All the rigs are obviously not road legal. They never have been at this event and they probably never will.

See the 'Tuffest' registered Trucks compete in a gruelling two and a half day driving event with action packed off-roading at its best.

The very first line on the home page, no less. "Your understanding?" What do you know?

Now even if you have no idea of how this event is being run you could probably take a fairly good guess that everything is being run above board!!!! Have a look at the sponsors and the land owners and the organisers of this event (especially the sponsors!!!!) Do you guys really think that any of these people would touch this thing if it wasnt totally above board.

Larry - what makes you so sure that this event is run and insured through CCDA. I dont see it that way. I think its just run in accordance with some of the CCDA vehicle spec rules to give some basis to what sort of vehicles they want. The vehicle obviously arnt CCDA compliant and the nature of the event obviously isnt rule under CCDA rules. I wouldnt think CCDA would touch this and for that matter Tuff Truck is probably bigger than CCDA so I think they would just look after themselves.

Tuff Truck Challenge 2005 is a CCDA Group C Short Course event, run in accordance with the National CCDA Rules, plus the following supplementary rules governing the conduct of the event and scoring of the special stages.

To achieve our goal of identifying the region's Tuffest registered 4WD vehicles and crews, Tuff Truck Challenge 2005 vehicle specifications are aligned with the new CCDA Open Class, with following two exceptions.

Powered and manually operated active suspension that adjusts each wheel individually IS permitted, and
Tyres do NOT have to be enclosed within the width of mudguards and flares.
Cargo barriers are NOT required, however, all equipment carried on the vehicle must be secured.

The link provided to National CCDA Rules doesn't work for me, but the Tuff Truck website does contain some information.

[quote="CCDA Vehicle Specification"]
4.1 ALL CLASSES
4.1.1 OVERALL RULING
Vehicle modifications not expressly authorised by these Vehicle Specifications shall be prohibited. The following specifications for this section “All Classesâ€

[Strange Rover]

For a starters - Im not the person that has a problem with this event. So for me "my understanding" is good enough. Its you guys that have the issues with the event. So its you guys that are trying to find proof that the event is dodgy. And all you come up with is BS theorys.

How about this one - the whole event is a scam - there is no tuff truck - they have all just taken our money and moved oversees. Theres a good theory!!! Now if you guys stated this all I can say is "My understanding is that the event is all above board blah blah blah" Now if you came up with something like the guy who is running the show has left the country and has moved to some obscure country then I could go well maybe you guys are right......

If everybody is just going to post theorys - how about this one - the event is properly insured, everything is totally above board, the event has massive industry sponsorship from companys that are way bigger than Tuff Truck that have owners that wouldnt touch anything if it wasnt properly insured cause they know that they themselves can get sued if something bad happens, and then event is being run on a property that has a history of motor racing involvement who wont allow any event on their property unless they have proper insurance cause they also have family and houses and they wouldnt put any of this at risk ust to make a few quick bucks.

OR the event is dodgy as hell and Tuff Truck has managed to scam everybody involved including myself.

So how about you guys start by explaining how Tuff Truck can get all these people involved (liability wise) without them having all the proper requirements......

Sam

[Strange Rover]

Sam, In my last post I didn't ask you personally to respond whatsoever. In fact your previous responses have been a bit vague at best and I was rather hoping for a more qualified opinion from someone with a little less emotional attachment to the event and a little more knowledge regarding the legal issues. Larry's post is a good start and you quite frankly HAVE not come up with any proper argument to dispel the doubts.
I dont care who you are, Just because your ""understanding'' of the rules is this or that, doesn't make them fact.
Bill.

What - you think that somebody with a more qualified opinion is going to jump into this shiat fight?? Dont hold your breath...

Heres the argument - you carnt run an event this major without proper insurance.

Sam

[-Scott-]

Heres the argument - you carnt run an event this major without proper insurance.

No argument.

You can't run an event involving this much money without well defined rules.

Will all competing vehicles fully comply with all the published rules?

IF (yes, this is an "IF") a vehicle which doesn't comply with all the published rules is permitted to compete, AND such a vehicle is involved in an incident, will the incident be covered by the event's insurance? I would have thought all competitors and spectators could be directly affected by this.

I'm not suggesting the event is dodgy, or that organisers are deliberately trying to defraud anybody. I am intrigued by the suggestion that vehicles don't need to comply with published rules, and that this is perfectly OK. I think this would be a huge gamble for extreme 4x4 motorsport, as Bill has already suggested. Have the organisers, in their desire to provide a showcase event, really given this issue sufficient thought?

OK, so rules make for a "level playing field" - Tuff Truck would be boring if the field was level.

Scott

[Davidh]

I think one simple question to the Tuff Truck organisers would solve this little debate:

Does the insurance policy for the event require full vehicle registration and engineers certification. (I.E. like CCDA's typical rulings)

As spectators, no-one cares about this. We want to see tuff trucks!
But the only issue people seem to be worried about is whether or not the insurance policy's conditions are being broken, as an accident could spoil our beloved sport.

A confirmation of this would end this debate rather quickly i'd imagine.

[daddylonglegs]

[quote="Strange Rover"]

What - you think that somebody with a more qualified opinion is going to jump into this shiat fight??


Sam.

Well I could answer yes to that, and say thankyou Scott. But I won't do that because that would be petty wouldn't it ?
Bill.

[Strange Rover]

Heres the argument - you carnt run an event this major without proper insurance.

No argument.

You can't run an event involving this much money without well defined rules.

Will all competing vehicles fully comply with all the published rules?

IF (yes, this is an "IF") a vehicle which doesn't comply with all the published rules is permitted to compete, AND such a vehicle is involved in an incident, will the incident be covered by the event's insurance? I would have thought all competitors and spectators could be directly affected by this.

I'm not suggesting the event is dodgy, or that organisers are deliberately trying to defraud anybody. I am intrigued by the suggestion that vehicles don't need to comply with published rules, and that this is perfectly OK. I think this would be a huge gamble for extreme 4x4 motorsport, as Bill has already suggested. Have the organisers, in their desire to provide a showcase event, really given this issue sufficient thought?

OK, so rules make for a "level playing field" - Tuff Truck would be boring if the field was level.

Scott

WTF???

Are you saying the insurance is done properly or not???

You said "no argument" so why are you arguing again??

Sam

[Strange Rover]

What - you think that somebody with a more qualified opinion is going to jump into this shiat fight??


Sam.

Well I could answer yes to that, and say thankyou Scott. But I won't do that because that would be petty wouldn't it ?
Bill

Yea Bill - right. You wouldnt say that would you. Just like you insult people but appologise in advance just in case you are wrong - real nice.


Who is Scott???

Is he just somebody that is arguing on your side or is he more qualified.

Has he run a competition before? Has he spoken to the organisers of Tuff Truck? Has he enquired to the CCDA about whats required to run an event. Does he know what required to run an event at the Milbrodale site?

What makes his opinion any more valid than anybody elses??

And hes already agreed with me - you carnt run an event this major without proper insurance because the land owners wont let you, the sponsors wont let you and probably the council wont let you.

Tuff Truck isnt something new. Everybody who is involved with this event knows exactly what the event is and the types of vehicles that are competiting - ie not 100% road legal (which is the same for just about any form of modified motor sport)

Seems to me that its only you 2 guys that dont realise this.

Sam

[80lsy gq]

why cant people just go and watch the god damn event and stop trying to close it down before it all starts.......daddy long legs you always seem to find little niggles to bring up in your posts and love to enter/begin arguments.........petty bullshit arguments are not what is needed... what is needed is a bit of harmony between everyone who is entering or spectating at these events....

as far as the insurance issue is concerned.. none of the event organisers would have even considered putting on this event without first making certain everyone who attends this event is covered.....in this day of pathetic lawsuits (brought upon us by boring farts who have nothing better to do than read every minute detail of a contract and look for a loophole to sue) the threat of litigation is high in whatever you do.... how about leaving off with the little nazi crap and enjoying the stories that are coming out of the lead up to tuff truck.....the haultech guys workin frantically to create something new for the sport,beebee and 83 lux having raffles to help cover their costs of getting there,and im sure there is many more...... as there will be many more stories come out of the event itself.......

so why not just sit back,relax and watch the event and enjoy it for the spectacle it is......i know i will be......

[up2nogood]

Is CAMS involved with this event?

Just curious, I know nothing of TTC.

Otherwise if no engineering/roadworthy is required, then how can the insurance be certain?

[-Scott-]

Everybody who is involved with this event knows exactly what the event is and the types of vehicles that are competiting - ie not 100% road legal (which is the same for just about any form of modified motor sport)

We are questioning the organiser's duty of disclosure. Grab an insurance policy (any insurance policy), find the clause referring to duty of disclosure, and read it.

All the regulations I can find on the Tuff Truck site state that competing vehicles must be legally registered. You say "everybody knows" that they are "not 100% road legal." So there's two possibilities. Either

a. The insurance company knows the competing vehicles are not 100% road legal.

or

b. The insurance company is insuring an event involving 100% road legal vehicles, as defined by the rules on the Tuff Truck web site.

If a. is the real situation, then there is no problem.

If b. is the real situation, and the event involves non-roadworthy vehicles, then the organisers have failed in their duty of disclosure and the insurance policy may be void.

Imagine an MQ with spring over and 37" tyres on Queensland registration. It may be "insured" but will a claim ever be paid out?

Scott

[Wooders]

Gezzzus...... NJ & Daddy legs - get a life.
Insurance - why the big debate - it's the event organisers responsibilty so let them worry about it.....Surely you have other things to worry about, like is it time for bingo...
Rego - it's requested. Not street legal. It's been clearly defined what the difference in fact a few times recently - if you still don't know I think it's time you started to learn to read.

Roll on Tuff truck - it's gonna be a shyte load of fun - but you 2 whingers might as well just stay in you safe long & mind the forum....
<rant off>

[daddylonglegs]

Contrary to what Sam, Ruff, Wooders etc choose to believe, I am personally not against hardcore offroad motor sport.(read my posts) In fact as a dedicated vehicle modifier I rather like the concept of TTC. I even like what you guys at haultech have done with MogRover and the Defender and as a Rover man I would hope that those trucks kick some serious butt. In all likelihood I will either buy or borrow the video and read about it in one of the magazines.
Having said all that I still claim the right to ask the questions that I have done on what is supposedly an open forum without being called a brainless pansy when it is reasonably clear that I am not.. Remember Sam you started with the insult,and Wooders, in lieu of anything constuctive to add jumped on the bandwagon.
If you Sam wanted to settle this debate once and for all you would request that the organisers come on this forum to clarify their position and the correct status of the event re insurance etc. After all they didn't appoint you pre event scrutineer for nothing. You should have resonable access to the right people to talk to.
Bill.

[grimbo]

What is the problem with debating an issue as long as it is being conducted intelligently. Once it stoops to name calling etc then I agree it is worthless but so far this has tried to be an itelligent conversation about the legallities and requirements for TTC.

Unfortunately some people are taking debate and information clarification as naysaying. This, I don't think, has been an attempt to bag TTC or make it hard for event organisers but is an attempt to clarify the discreoencies between what it says on the TTC own website and what some of the competitors are maybe interpreting those same rules as.

But anyway lets keep it as a discussion, nothing more nothing less. To all that are participating i hope you have a fantastic weekend, I think that this will raise the bar once again in the hardcore scene which can only be a good thing for the sport.

To the organisers I hope it all runs smoothly and is the success it deserves to be

[Wooders]

Mate I was NOT jumping on any band wagon.
I was just amazed at how much crap was stirred up over such a non-existant issue.

I'm a simple bloke:
I've simply read the guidlines, modded my rig to suit, ante'd up with the $$ and now (asside from finishing a few things) just want ot get there and have fun and enjoy the event.

And too much all these negative crap detracts from my enjoyment of the leadup..... So I suggest you simply pull yer head out of your butt and either get over it and enjoy it or wowser over some other issue.

Bandwagon

[80lsy gq]

to everyone who wants to fight over this subject i have this to say...

bunnings have a sale on stepladders for 19.95......go spend 20 and GET OVER IT........

let the organisers concern themselves with the issues and go and compete/spectate and enjoy it...

david

[Timmy]

why havent the people with issues over this tried to make a phone call to the TTC organisers? or would that be to hard? you are complaining that you are not getting the answers you want, but you wont go to the effort of contacting the real world to speak to the people in charge.

[grimbo]

why havent the people with issues over this tried to make a phone call to the TTC organisers? or would that be to hard? you are complaining that you are not getting the answers you want, but you wont go to the effort of contacting the real world to speak to the people in charge.

because alot of them are on here

[planb]

How about this one - the whole event is a scam - there is no tuff truck - they have all just taken our money and moved oversees.

Hell yeah !

thats the beauty of the internet

im sipping latte's with the Pope's nine wives in roma, hope you girls have fun in milbrodale

i think this is a very interesting thread, put aside the bitch talking, daddylong makes a valid point,

this whole event would be so much cleaner if the requirement for registration was done away with.

this is the aim for next year, as far as i understand it.

[daddylonglegs]

[quote="80lsy gq"].......daddy long legs you always seem to find little niggles to bring up in your posts and love to enter/begin arguments.........petty bullshit arguments are not what is needed... what is needed is a bit of harmony between everyone who is entering or spectating at these events....

If you bothered to read some of my 700 odd posts since I have been on this board you would find that its about 95% pure qualified tech.
Since when does a willingness to share some of the vast technical knowledge one has aquired over 40 years of repairing,building and modifying 4wd's become a desire to always find fault with others and a love to enter/begin petty bullshit arguments.
Bill.

[Guy]

What concerns me about the discrepancy between the "advertised rules" and the reality of the event is the media coverage, there is no reason that it all must be positive.

TODAY TONIGHTS NEXT HEADLINE

"4WD'ERS CANNOT TICK TO THEIR OWN SELF IMPOSED RULES, HOW CAN THEY BE EXPECTED TO STICK TO ROAD RULES" or some other equally crappy headline..

Ouick flash of some 44 boggered truck ripping it way through a rock garden, rolling blah blah ...

Then falsh to a copy of "the rules"

Naomi robsin sitting there with the "stunned fish" look on her face saying "this is what the call road registered vehciles"

Does the 4x4 movemnt in general no end of good ..

Maybe I am being a skirt.. but can anyone else see this point.

[80lsy gq]

.......daddy long legs you always seem to find little niggles to bring up in your posts and love to enter/begin arguments.........petty bullshit arguments are not what is needed... what is needed is a bit of harmony between everyone who is entering or spectating at these events....

If you bothered to read some of my 700 odd posts since I have been on this board you would find that its about 95% pure qualified tech.
Since when does a willingness to share some of the vast technical knowledge one has aquired over 40 years of repairing,building and modifying 4wd's become a desire to always find fault with others and a love to enter/begin petty bullshit arguments.
Bill.

i'm sure people who have been helped by your posts over the years are grateful bill but iirc you were involved in another little dispute on this forum....but all that aside....have you ever been involved in the organisation and running of an event such as this......if your biggest problem is with the insurance side of it then you would understand that there is no way an event like this could go ahead without all the avenues being covered.(as sam has said these guys would be putting their house,jobs etc on the line if the insurance is not comprehensive)i know you are not the only one who has issues with this and i apologise if you feel singled out....and as for the registered issue then i would question you to use your 40 years experience and examine the rigs entered and tell us which ones would legally be allowed to drive on the roads in australia...(i must admit i frequently see 4wds with 44inch tyres driving around my area )...

also bill i know that you are not trying to destroy the competition and you are probably gunna enjoy watching it as much as the rest of us will but surely some of the issues you are bringing up would have been better dealt with via email/private message/telephone call... something that not the whole world is able to see.... that is where my comment came from..... bad publicity is not what is needed....


and just so you know bill i have a background in running events like this ( larger in fact) and we sit down and examine every possible avenue of what can go wrong at an event and plan as to the course of action to take as well as ensuring that insurance issues are also covered.....and to date there has been 9 of these car shows pass without any problems....
im sure that the organisers of tuff truck have adopted a similar approach to this.......

[daddylonglegs]

David, Thanks for your reply.Some of your comments are valid and I have taken them on board. But Jeez your being a bit picky aren't you ? One other dispute in 700 posts. I make mistakes. My shit stinks like everyone elses, That dispute was with a fool and I don't suffer fools gladly and from time to time I will be involved in other disputes either on this forum, assuming I don't get banned, Pirate or any of the other forums I choose to join.

I am well aware that these days you can't so much as spit in public without an insurance policy to cover litigation, and yes you'r e right, proper VALID insurance cover is my main concern here,.not to put down the likes of Sam ,Ruff, Wooders and the other entrants.
It seems a bit strange to me that even after 3 pages of posts on this thread no one has stepped up to the plate and cetegorically stated with proof that the cover for this event is 100% assured, and maybe alarm bells should start to ring when a 4wd magazine journalist comes on this forum to say that the questions I and others have raised are valid.
As to vehicle legality,contrary to popular opinion it isn't too difficult to get a truck engineered and roadworthy on 35's, even Swampers, been there done that. But there is no way any authority or Insurer in the land will still consider that truck to be legal and roadworthy once you swap on a set of 38.40,44's etc, and that single point IMHO is enough to invalidate the cover for the event should something go terribly wrong.
Now I am just a simple mechanic, and after all these posts my intelect is running on empty, and I am struggling to keep coming up with anything fresh and interesting on this subject LOL, so will somebody lay this issue to rest by posting a response from the organisers, or the insurer that the concerns of some of us here are unfounded?

Love Mud, I had a dream about Naomi Robson the other day, It wasn't a wet one, but the scenario was almost exactly as you described.
Bill.

[80lsy gq]

as i said bill my issue is not with any disputes you may or will have on this board.... my biggest concern is just what damage a dispute like this will have on future events that will be held eg woodpecker,we rock,and numerous others.......will some of the comments here deter people from going to spectate/compete in these events as they feel that not all issues have been covered....i hope not otherwise i may as well give up building my buggy now and take up crochet or something equally mundane...i know from my point of view that i have no concerns going to an event such as tuff truck as im sure an event of this magnitude will have been planned correctly....i know that this is not from the organisers/insurers etc but imho anyone attending this event has nothing to concern themselves with....basically what it comes down to is that the people who are running this event arent stupid and would not risk loosing everything they have worked their whole life for on one weekend....


anyway... three more sleeps till i leave so

[Timmy]

It seems a bit strange to me that even after 3 pages of posts on this thread no one has stepped up to the plate and cetegorically stated with proof that the cover for this event is 100% assured, .

dont you think that it also seems a bit strange that you are only concerned about discussing this over the internet, well you could quite easily make a few phone calls to the people that you are waiting for a response from? i'm pretty sure there is a " contact us " button on the tuff truck website....

[HeathGQ]

Hi everyone......

What concerns me about the discrepancy between the "advertised rules" and the reality of the event is the media coverage, there is no reason that it all must be positive.

Maybe I am being a skirt.. but can anyone else see this point.

I see the point.

But I do think that the professionalism of the interested parties would not have wavered.

Okay, so this is my intrepretation - the vehicles must be registered to be allowed to compete. But they dont have to be in a registered condition to actually compete in the event.

If they had to be registered to compete, we would be sitting around watchen GQ's and 80's on 33's and suzi's on 29's........ would you give a $12,000 first prize for that????



Okay so now I have had my say in this thread. Thats the last time. I can understand the questions that some people are asking, but sometimes, you have to accept that some people are not stupid.

Everyone competing, have fun, good luck - die young and have a good looking corpse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!