Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Charlie wrote:Can someone how a 50mm bigger tyre gives 50mm lift rather than 25mm?
It's a bit difficult for metric tyres as well,I don't think there are many 29 or 30 inch tyres available for a 16 inch rim.
Regards Charlie

Actually there's heaps of options... but you may need to change both width and section at once since many of the possibilities arent common.

Stuff like 215/75, 215/85 are available - that's 29 or 30".

blkmav wrote:ok so these aren't the rules of what you can do without an engineers cert?

So if I whack in a 50mm susp lift and 50mm larger tyres I need to get it engineered?

I read this slightly differently.

If the modifications fit in the category "modifications without certification" then you can do any or all of them without an engineers certificate.

That means 2" suspension lift (is ok) and so is 2" bigger tyres.
With no certification required for either, or even for both.

So 75mm lift max without engineers - 50mm suspension 25mm tyre radius.



This covers most daily driver - weekend warrior 4wds and is all I'd want. Sure I'd like more suspension lift and 35"s, but if it's a compromise we have to deal with in this litigation crazy world then I can put up with it rather than have to drive something illegal everywhere.

Just means I have to choppy-chop for 34" JT's on my daily driver.



If you wish to go beyond that for instance (if they still wont fit) for a competition type weekend warrior the proposed legislation allows for it - but while you can lift it up to the height to run big rubber you can't run that rubber on the road.

You'll need a lockable trailer (to keep your spare wheels in) and change wheels there. most competitors probably would do this anyway as it beats driving for miles on boggers anyway, gives them room for tents, tools, spares and stuff - and also much cheaper too.

That's sensible too.

If you have the money, time and expertise you can build an ICV which can run those portals and 22R Tyres - but that's not covered in this proposal.

The way the hardcore end of the sport is going it's all gonna be trailered moonbuggies and stuff anyway.

I have no problem with that either.



For those who want to keep their stuff hardcore and onroad GET THE DAMN THING APPROVED NOW IF YOU CAN.

If you're in NSW or VIC and that means going back to 30" or 31"s to get an engineers cert on your Zook, or scaling down to 35"S to get engineering on your Patrol now, then do it.... rather than fiddle about for another 6 months and not get it approved because you'll lose out even further.


The same would also apply to people who have 3" suspension in QLD.


Ok I want some 3" springs approved now before this comes in - how much is it gonna set me back

Actually reading the preface does not guarantee that previously approved vehicles will still be legal. Read page 5 of this.

http://www.dotars.gov.au/transreg/vsb/P ... pt2005.pdf

Obivously that can't guarantee that future laws wont change but it would be nice to see some guarantee that those with existing vehicles arent screwed.

Beastmavster wrote:Actually reading the preface does not guarantee that previously approved vehicles will still be legal. Read page 5 of this.

http://www.dotars.gov.au/transreg/vsb/P ... pt2005.pdf

Obivously that can't guarantee that future laws wont change but it would be nice to see some guarantee that those with existing vehicles arent screwed.

there could be thousands of worthless cars out there which I couldnt see happening

Not quite worthless - forced to be modified to meet new legislation.

Would be unlikely but potentially possible. It's very rare to apply legislation retroactively.

Generally speaking if you met the rules of the time then you're genereally ok - but you wont be able to get other mods approved.

it has been done. retro fitting of seatbelts to busses for one.

I think the funny part will be currently illegal trucks that have been around modded for years coming out of hiding and getting engineered with clapped out shocks etc

Beastmavster wrote:

blkmav wrote:ok so these aren't the rules of what you can do without an engineers cert?

So if I whack in a 50mm susp lift and 50mm larger tyres I need to get it engineered?

I read this slightly differently.

If the modifications fit in the category "modifications without certification" then you can do any or all of them without an engineers certificate.

That means 2" suspension lift (is ok) and so is 2" bigger tyres.
With no certification required for either, or even for both.

So 75mm lift max without engineers - 50mm suspension 25mm tyre radius.

You may want to go back and read the code again as it states that raising the vehicle more than 50mm but less than 150mm requires certification and all that entails.

Beastmavster wrote:
If you're in NSW or VIC and that means going back to 30" or 31"s to get an engineers cert on your Zook

Well I don't know about that as my zook came with 27" tyres and that means I can't go bigger than 29" and the largest tyre fitted was to an LJ50 with a 6.00x16 and everything else since has been smaller.

cj wrote:

Beastmavster wrote:

blkmav wrote:ok so these aren't the rules of what you can do without an engineers cert?

So if I whack in a 50mm susp lift and 50mm larger tyres I need to get it engineered?

I read this slightly differently.

If the modifications fit in the category "modifications without certification" then you can do any or all of them without an engineers certificate.

That means 2" suspension lift (is ok) and so is 2" bigger tyres.
With no certification required for either, or even for both.

So 75mm lift max without engineers - 50mm suspension 25mm tyre radius.

You may want to go back and read the code again as it states that raising the vehicle more than 50mm but less than 150mm requires certification and all that entails.

I'm happy with the way I've interpreted it. You read section 4 of the LS code and show me where I am wrong.

However if you're right and you cant even do that then the regulations are ludicrous and are a significant step backward from where we are now even in QLD.


If that's the case then wou need an engineers cert to run 2" suspension lift and 33" tyres, with lane change test and everything.

cj wrote:

Beastmavster wrote:
If you're in NSW or VIC and that means going back to 30" or 31"s to get an engineers cert on your Zook

Well I don't know about that as my zook came with 27" tyres and that means I can't go bigger than 29" and the largest tyre fitted was to an LJ50 with a 6.00x16 and everything else since has been smaller.

That is - doing it NOW while the current engineering regulations are in Place.

once again dont chop off half my sentence and completely change the meaning.

Jeez it pi55es me off when people do that.

Beastmavster wrote:

cj wrote:

Beastmavster wrote:
If you're in NSW or VIC and that means going back to 30" or 31"s to get an engineers cert on your Zook

Well I don't know about that as my zook came with 27" tyres and that means I can't go bigger than 29" and the largest tyre fitted was to an LJ50 with a 6.00x16 and everything else since has been smaller.

That is - doing it NOW while the current engineering regulations are in Place.

once again dont chop off half my sentence and completely change the meaning.

Jeez it pi55es me off when people do that.

My bad

Beastmavster wrote:

cj wrote:

Beastmavster wrote:

blkmav wrote:ok so these aren't the rules of what you can do without an engineers cert?

So if I whack in a 50mm susp lift and 50mm larger tyres I need to get it engineered?

I read this slightly differently.

If the modifications fit in the category "modifications without certification" then you can do any or all of them without an engineers certificate.

That means 2" suspension lift (is ok) and so is 2" bigger tyres.
With no certification required for either, or even for both.

So 75mm lift max without engineers - 50mm suspension 25mm tyre radius.

You may want to go back and read the code again as it states that raising the vehicle more than 50mm but less than 150mm requires certification and all that entails.

I'm happy with the way I've interpreted it. You read section 4 of the LS code and show me where I am wrong.

However if you're right and you cant even do that then the regulations are ludicrous and are a significant step backward from where we are now even in QLD.


If that's the case then wou need an engineers cert to run 2" suspension lift and 33" tyres, with lane change test and everything.

Go back a couple and re-read section 1.2.

Well if I have to get it engineered to run 33"s even then I may as well have the FULL 150mm - 2" suspension, 2" body and 34" tyres

That'd be the attitude of a LOT of people and it'll be mine as well.

Maybe we should ask to have that changed to 75mm to 150mm rather than 50mm to 150mm, because unless anyone is selling 1" lift kits....... a lot of people will still be breaking that new legislation.

It's also clearly able to be interpreted in a number of ways - so changing that to a starting size of 75mm clarifies the law.

33"s on a cruiser/patrol/lux and 2" suspension is probably the MOST common mod out there. If that needs lane change testing for the 60mm that it is above stock then there's something wrong with the proposed legislation.

Yep, that's the problem. A lot of people seem to be thinking this is a great thing and I agree that bringing a degree of uniformity and standardisation in to what can be modded in each State is a good thing. BUT it seems that it will be a LOT more involved and costly to get what are pretty common mods done and that the tyre size allowed is still prety small. Pick any one mod and you're ok but pick two or more and it's a pain in the @#$ and you still can't run decent sized rubber. I know some are saying that 50mm increase in tyre dia. is fine but I think they are only looking at it from the perspective of what vehicle they have currently, what State rules they may be dealing with currently or the type of tracks they do currently. If suddenly all the manufacturers were to be fitting 29", 30" or 31" tyres as standard how would everyone feel then? Do they realise that a suspension lift AND tyres means getting it Engineered? Have they looked at what is involved in getting it engineered? I think everybody should have closer, slower, proper read of this code before saying what a good thing it is as it stands.

The engineer I spoke to about passing 35's and 3" suspension lift (l150mm total lift) said wait and see what happens with the new laws. He couldn't see the point in trying to get something passed at last minute only to have to re-engineer it again later.

The same fella told me a month ago to try and get my truck passed ASAP as they would let the existing engineered trucks stay, so it seems even they are surprised by the way it's looking now.

BTW how would we have dropped hangers classified? ie if we run flat leaf springs (no lift) but install 2" dropped hangers front and rear would that be classified as body lift or suspension lift?

Reading between the lines it appears then that your Engineer thinks that even previously engineered vehicles may have to meet this new code. If that's right, that will cause some pain to quite a few.

Beastmavster wrote:

Charlie wrote:Can someone how a 50mm bigger tyre gives 50mm lift rather than 25mm?
It's a bit difficult for metric tyres as well,I don't think there are many 29 or 30 inch tyres available for a 16 inch rim.
Regards Charlie

Actually there's heaps of options... but you may need to change both width and section at once since many of the possibilities arent common.

Stuff like 215/75, 215/85 are available - that's 29 or 30".

No such thing as a 215/75 athough a 225/70 is availalble,215/85 is over 30".
My current Vitara would be illegal with 225/75 and 1" bodylift but a Hilux comes SOA from the factory and your allowed another 150m of lift? I got nothing against Hiluxs BTW but most cars are only being built up to the level a normal Hilux or Landrover leaves the factory.
Regards Charlie

My old Vit was 31"s, bodylift suspension lift etc.


There are 215/75/16. Just because on manufacturer doesnt make them doesnt make them non existant. They're just a light truck size.

Anyway, lots of different 29" tyres in 16" rims that will fit your needs..

Haven't read through the whole document, but have read majority of the thread. Just one question when is this 'code of practice' being introduced, is there a date or is that unknown at this stage.

With the limits of lift, tyres etc... if your 4x4 is over the proposed limits does this mean you would get knocked back on next rego and therefore need to be re-engineered and fix??.

Cheers

Patroldude...... no one knows.

It's gonna depend on the way each state applies it - after all we had a similar national code a few years back which never went national - each state still did their own rules.

Some states may allow pre engineered vehicles to remain registered.
Others may not.

Depends on how many more killer truck stories we see in the news.....

On thing is for sure - if you're in a state where what you have is legal now I'd be asking about getting it certified - because without it you will DEFINATELY have to comply to the new legislation if/when it is passed in your state.

It's rare that legislation is applied retrospectively but it does happen.

Beastmavster wrote:

blkmav wrote:

bru21 wrote:you are allowed 10's

Not in Vic

But you will be under this legislation.

It isn't legislation, or ever going to be. It is a guide that can and will be overwritten by any state roadworthy requirements as per their intro...

Basically much ado about nothing. It will not in anyway be incorpoated into the ADR's that the states use as a minimum.

Beastmavster wrote:Actually reading the preface does not guarantee that previously approved vehicles will still be legal. Read page 5 of this.

http://www.dotars.gov.au/transreg/vsb/P ... pt2005.pdf

Obivously that can't guarantee that future laws wont change but it would be nice to see some guarantee that those with existing vehicles arent screwed.

That page is open to interpretation. I read it as if you were already certified, then that is fine so long as the vehicle handles and brakes in a staisfactory manner and it is kept in a roadworthy condition.

DAMKIA wrote:

Beastmavster wrote:

blkmav wrote:

bru21 wrote:you are allowed 10's

Not in Vic

But you will be under this legislation.

It isn't legislation, or ever going to be. It is a guide that can and will be overwritten by any state roadworthy requirements as per their intro...

Basically much ado about nothing. It will not in anyway be incorpoated into the ADR's that the states use as a minimum.

Strange - the last one is the basis of QLD's restrictive 4wd mod laws (and of course their very lenient engine transplant laws - whcih used to be the toughest in the country).

After what has happened with a few incidents in NSW recently I expect them to be far more likely to follow it than allow 37" rubber on just about anything.

Read the other threads around - its mainly NSW pishing for this now I thought.

DEEV8 wrote: However, we can still only have 4" of overall lift including body. The good part is we can vary what we want. Ie 4" suspension... Or 1" susp. and 3" body. But in the long run it still equals out to 2" suspension and 2" body which is what we had before... who is going to go out and pay for new springs and shocks to get a 1" lift and then put 3" body lift in...?

No you can't - it's 2" suspension lift MAXIMUM.

Hi

Is there any new news on what deal is going to be for QLD, or can someone point me to a more current thread if there is one




thanks

There's no news and my emails to QLD transport have met no response. Might be time to go down there and have words with them - i think they dont like email since it's a written medium.

Petty beurocrats the world over (me included) have a great fear of putting anything in writing.....*


*well actually i love putting lots of stuff in writing.... just not anything that commits me to doing any actual work

Beastmavster wrote:There's no news and my emails to QLD transport have met no response. Might be time to go down there and have words with them - i think they dont like email since it's a written medium.

Petty beurocrats the world over (me included) have a great fear of putting anything in writing.....*


*well actually i love putting lots of stuff in writing.... just not anything that commits me to doing any actual work

Resend them with CC's to the State Minister for Transport and Shadow Minister For Transport (not that Beattie has much "Opposition" to speak of up there), and a few of your local Members. If it is brought up in Parliament, QT have to do something about a reasonable answer.

Beastmavster wrote:There's no news and my emails to QLD transport have met no response. Might be time to go down there and have words with them - i think they dont like email since it's a written medium.

Petty beurocrats the world over (me included) have a great fear of putting anything in writing.....*


*well actually i love putting lots of stuff in writing.... just not anything that commits me to doing any actual work

ha me too... I love working for government

go down there and ask on the spot... get phone numbers! I'll always respond to a phone call

Just heard that this is approved and coming in to practice June/July.... across the board for all States.

Cheers,
Ryano

Ryano wrote:Just heard that this is approved and coming in to practice June/July.... across the board for all States.

Cheers,
Ryano

Interesting. I'll believe it when I see it!