DANA v GU !!!

[jeep97tj]

so how long is it until we start seeing GU housings with D60 ball joint style knuckles on em (Like the Dedenbear one's).. And who will be running the new bobby Long super CV's built for dana 60's that allow up to 45 degrees of angularity.


The GU diff is way more common in Aus therefore cheaper .. I am guessing it is considerably lighter as well.. The plate steel housings also lends itself to easy modifcation...


Would it be feasible to run the D60 knuckle on a GU diff ???

Jp magazine brought a $60 junk yard D60 rear axle and turned it into a built front axle called the "Hazel 60", they installed:

ARB

locker $839.99
air line kit $39.99

CRANE

Chrome-moly inner "C" $490.00
" " knuckle $690.00
" " diff cover $ 215.00
High steer arms $180.00

DYNATRAC

six lug conversion $1,095.00
35spline outer shafts $238.00
35spline inners $449.00
spicer 1480 U Joints $80

locker + gears set up labor $550
inner axle seals $138
Gears and install kit $340
D60 spindles $336.88
Warn hubs $223.92

After all that plus other bits that i cant be bothered writing down it cost them $30 less than if they were to just go out and buy a Dynatrac Pro Rock 60 high clearance, high pinion, 35 spline inners and outers, 4.88 and ARB.

Hazel 60 $6,207.31
Pro Rock $6,236.00

The Hazel 60 did have the CRANE chrome-moly knuckles though, there cast from 8630 and have 105,000psi tensile strenght, these are king at the moment.

Also another bit of info while were talking spline counts Jp have a table in there Jan/Feb mag

AXLE STRENGTH COMPARISON

SPLINE INCREASE = STRENGTH INCREASE
28 TO 31 = 34%
30 TO 31 = 10%
30 TO 35 = 56%
31 TO 35 = 42%

Also from Jp www.sunrayengineering.com can build u a 60 using HUGE 1610 u joints, knuckles and shafts.

Jp has a lot off cool shit in it, u dont have to be into jeep to buy it. If u havent had a look through one i suggest u do

[uninformed]

ok,ok,ok freekin spline counts. i've asked the question over on pirate, every one talks spline count. it's starting to get to me because you can't compare splines when there not the same dp and pa ie

landrover 23 spline 20/40 dp 30 degree pa is 27.9mm root dia

landrover 32 spline vee form 45 degree pa is 24.1mm root dia

landrover 10 spline square form 40 degree included angle is 25.3 root dia

i think we should talk minor or root dia of axles because this is where the strenght is (ie bigger is better).

just trying to get apples against apples

cheers, Serg

[ISUZUROVER]

ok,ok,ok freekin spline counts. i've asked the question over on pirate, every one talks spline count. it's starting to get to me because you can't compare splines when there not the same dp and pa ie

landrover 23 spline 20/40 dp 30 degree pa is 27.9mm root dia

landrover 32 spline vee form 45 degree pa is 24.1mm root dia

landrover 10 spline square form 40 degree included angle is 25.3 root dia

i think we should talk minor or root dia of axles because this is where the strenght is (ie bigger is better).

just trying to get apples against apples

cheers, Serg

I agree Serg, it is strange to me too, this comes from the US, since Dana use the same (30 degree) pressure angle and spline size on all their fine spline axles, so in this case a higher number of splines means a larger diameter.

And both Toyota and Dana 30 spline axles have the same outer diameter (1.31") - but toyota use a 45°PA and Dana 30°.

But - Nissan 37 spline axles and Dana 35 spline axles are THE SAME DIAMETER.

Maybe this will clear up some confusion.



Sorry, this is a bit hard to read...
STRENGTH COMPARISON OF COMMON O.E. AUTOMOTIVE & RACING SPLINES
# Teeth Pressure Angle Common Application Major Diameter Minor Diameter % Change in Diameter % Change in Strength
30 45 deg Basis For Comparison: GM 12 Bolt 1.2917 1.2083 0.0% 0.0%

28 30 deg Older Jeep/Dana 1.1960 1.127 -7.9% -21.9%
30 30 deg Dana 44 1.2793 1.1960 -1.0% -3.0%
35 30 deg Dana 60 1.4876 1.4043 16.2% 57.0%

26 45 deg Late GM 10 bolt 1.1250 1.0417 -13.8% -35.9%
28 45 deg Early GM 10 bolt, Ford 9", & Ford 8.8" 1.2083 1.1250 -6.9% -19.3%
31 45 deg Ford 9" 1.3333 1.2500 3.5% 10.7%
33 45 deg Ford 9" 1.4167 1.3333 10.3% 34.4%
35 45 deg Mark Williams 35 Spline 1.5000 1.4167 17.2% 61.2%
40 45 deg Mark Williams 9" & 40 spline Dana 60 1.7083 1.6250 34.5% 143.2%

A formatted version is here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... dex1b.html

[J Top]

I was always told to run CVs over UJs in steering axles to prevent the uneven rotation of the wheel whilst on lock as this can agravate traction loss. Dont you guys worry about this?
J Top

[jeep97tj]

I have also heard people say this, but u have unis in your driveshafts, so the minor speed difference starts long before your axles unis.
Different grease and oils have better friction resistance properties than others, but the difference is so minor u can’t tell, so u just buy the middle of the range oil. Same with unis and cvs the difference is so minor u shouldn’t worry about it.

[Strange Rover]

hey Sam, so from what you are saying: u joints (d60 of course) are the go for comp work.

after reading what you are saying about the chromo cv's being soft, how would they go in a DD. i know they will be plenty strong enough for the little wheeling i do but will they just wear out super quick?

cheers, Serg

They should be fine as long as you dont wheel the crap out of them. Just like any other sort of CV. Cromo CVs are just stronger outright on one time overload tests...but they are still soft.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

Ok but you are comparing a stock GU to a built 60. How do they compare stock vs stock. Unfortunately the supplies of built 60s in Australia are still a little behind the availability of GUs. If going by what Cheezy has said maybe with the extra aftermarket support the GUs will be closer to the built 60s and I'd imagine a lot more accessible to most

Stock - vs - stock....who knows and who cares.

Nobody is going to run a stock dana 60......a stock dana 60 is almost unusable is most normal vehicles or comp buggies simple because they are too wide. Also is is very, very cheap to up grade a d60 to 35 spline outers using stock dana parts...i would imagine it would cost less than $200 each side to upgrade to 35 spline.

Once you get to 35 spline you are probably 1.5 times stronger than a GU diff simply because of the size of the axle and you dont have to fatigue problems that a GU diff has.

Unless Cheezy posts up something incredible I wouldnt be waiting for his upgraded GU stuff. You carnt run a decent size stubb shaft with a GU stud pattern. The stud pattern (6 on 5.5) is just too small to run anything bigger than a 1.31in axle through them. Now you could do it by running d60 hubs and knuckles but then it wouldnt be a GU diff - it would be a D60 and it would be very very expensive.

I think all Cheezy is talking about is running D44 components inside a GU housing which is not remotely comparable to the strength of a d60.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

so how long is it until we start seeing GU housings with D60 ball joint style knuckles on em (Like the Dedenbear one's).. And who will be running the new bobby Long super CV's built for dana 60's that allow up to 45 degrees of angularity.


The GU diff is way more common in Aus therefore cheaper .. I am guessing it is considerably lighter as well.. The plate steel housings also lends itself to easy modifcation...


Would it be feasible to run the D60 knuckle on a GU diff ???

If you are going to spend money on a dana 60 you would be waisting your time trying to put a GU centre in it. You carnt get a 35 spline locker for a GU - so you are stuck with small 31 spline axles. Putting 35 spline outers on a GU centre is just a waist of strength. Even if you could get 35 spline axles into a GU centre the GU pinion is still too small (too small in diameter at the pinion drive flange) and weak compared to a D60 or built 9 inch centre. Thats the buety of a dana 60 - its just plain strong all over.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

Also 45 degrees of turn out of a d60 isnt anything special. You can almost get 45 degrees out of a stock dana 60. With a little grinding you can get a little better than 45 deg. With CTM joints you can get almost 50 degrees stock. With curry joints you can get 55 degrees. And there is even some joints now that get better than 60 degrees.

45 degrees out of a dana 60 joint isnt anything really but it sounds preety cool when you used nissan and toyote stuff thta gets less than 30 degrees.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

I thought beebee was getting more than one comp out of his longfields???

Yep so far we have got 8 months out of them. But it's my job to make sure he doesn't bust them, i have to be the voice of reason most of the time. I am sure if we were to be chasing every point in a comp we would be busting them all the time. ATM we use the AISIN hub as a fuse, and like sam said we can blow them and front diff centers at will. So yes we do carry spare chromo cv's and axle's.

Using asian hubs as a fuse wont work cause when your fuse blows it will stuff your CV joint.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

bobby has got new 30 spline longs out now that are suppusedly (SP?) ment to last a fair bit longer and they are stronger again

This is what I have been talking about.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

Y are there so many artermarket bits for D60, stock not strong enough?


Mock

Is this a serious question?

Wow, you guys know all the answers, but still no comps or tests, just speculation

Mock

Wow - you must be right then - GU diffs with its little 1.31in axles must be are stronger than Dana 60s 1.5in axles.

Maybe we should test some suzuki axles with their monster 1in axles to see if they are stronger again???

How about we just start by believing that bigger is better to save all the hassle of breaking all the spare nissan GU axles.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

I was always told to run CVs over UJs in steering axles to prevent the uneven rotation of the wheel whilst on lock as this can agravate traction loss. Dont you guys worry about this?
J Top

Driving something with lockers and in 4wd agrivates traction loss anyway. As soon as you turn with lockers in 4wd you will start spinning tyres without having to worry about effects from the uni joints.

Basically strength is king.

Sam

[bigpat]

How much wider are D60's over GU's? I understand Rock Crusher diffs are based on D60's.... correct? If so how much narrower are they, say on a typical rock buggy?

By the way, seen D 60 ratio sets, including reverse rotation ones for US $145. Good price?

[POS]

Also 45 degrees of turn out of a d60 isnt anything special. You can almost get 45 degrees out of a stock dana 60. With a little grinding you can get a little better than 45 deg. With CTM joints you can get almost 50 degrees stock. With curry joints you can get 55 degrees. And there is even some joints now that get better than 60 degrees.

45 degrees out of a dana 60 joint isnt anything really but it sounds preety cool when you used nissan and toyote stuff thta gets less than 30 degrees.

Sam

And how the hell would you know that?

[Strange Rover]

How much wider are D60's over GU's? I understand Rock Crusher diffs are based on D60's.... correct? If so how much narrower are they, say on a typical rock buggy?

By the way, seen D 60 ratio sets, including reverse rotation ones for US $145. Good price?

Most Dana 60 fronts are around 69in WMS to WMS. I would guess a GU would be closer to 62in.

A Rockcrusher is a custom made diff so you can get any width you want. Most buggies would be between 58in and 64in WMS to WMS.

WMS means wheel mount surface.

Sam

[ljxtreem]

OK bigger is better

thanks


Mock

[Wooders]

if money is no object you would be mad not to go for the 60's with ctm's and big alloy shafts. i am sure i could break my unimog stuff easier than i could break that stuff..

Then get some more beef in the mog - it's only money

[Wendle]

If you are going to spend money on a dana 60 you would be waisting your time trying to put a GU centre in it. You carnt get a 35 spline locker for a GU - so you are stuck with small 31 spline axles. Putting 35 spline outers on a GU centre is just a waist of strength. Even if you could get 35 spline axles into a GU centre the GU pinion is still too small (too small in diameter at the pinion drive flange) and weak compared to a D60 or built 9 inch centre. Thats the buety of a dana 60 - its just plain strong all over.

Sam

it would be a waste of time, effort, and money, but if you were going to chop up datsun stuff to use with 60 knuckles, you'd use the 37 spline rear H260. you can even swap out the 37 spline side gears in an ARB locker for the 35 spline ones from the ARB D60 locker (same dia broach) and use off the shelf aftermarket iners. sounds like too much hard work for little reward to me though.

[ISUZUROVER]

If you are going to spend money on a dana 60 you would be waisting your time trying to put a GU centre in it. You carnt get a 35 spline locker for a GU - so you are stuck with small 31 spline axles. Putting 35 spline outers on a GU centre is just a waist of strength. Even if you could get 35 spline axles into a GU centre the GU pinion is still too small (too small in diameter at the pinion drive flange) and weak compared to a D60 or built 9 inch centre. Thats the buety of a dana 60 - its just plain strong all over.

Sam

it would be a waste of time, effort, and money, but if you were going to chop up datsun stuff to use with 60 knuckles, you'd use the 37 spline rear H260. you can even swap out the 37 spline side gears in an ARB locker for the 35 spline ones from the ARB D60 locker (same dia broach) and use off the shelf aftermarket iners. sounds like too much hard work for little reward to me though.

Doesn't the H260 only come as a low pinion version? Unless you were building a moon buggy (and could flip the diffs) a low pinion front would be a disadvantage.

[Rangie ute on 38'']

isuzurover, is the dana 60 the salisbury in the back of the defender,

[Slunnie]

I dont think its a Dana, but the designs are basically the same between the Landy Salisbury and the Dana60. The Salisbury runs 1.10" 10 splines and 1.24" 24 spline axles and hubs. They can be modified to run 1.5" 35 spline axles though.

[F'n_Rover]

salisbury is dana- the company is salisbury dana. as far as i know the centre is a hd d60, the best, but the tight arses put little 24 spline shafts in.

could be wrong though.

all landi salisburys are 24 spline

[F'n_Rover]

how cool would it be if all the buggies in aus started ripping apart old land rovers for their strong diffs.

[antt]

if money is no object and ya want a portal, you could always go this route



http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357386

[Bush65]

...all landi salisburys are 24 spline

The 101FC is not 24 spline. And the cv's are much larger as well.

[POS]

how cool would it be if all the buggies in aus started ripping apart old land rovers for their strong diffs.

Armmm thats already been done.

[Micka]

how cool would it be if all the buggies in aus started ripping apart old land rovers for their strong diffs.

Armmm thats already been done.

O-Oh....wait till all the nissan boys see that one.

Have the county CVs ben used as well?

Micka.

[ISUZUROVER]

salisbury is dana- the company is salisbury dana.

The Salisbury runs 1.10" 10 splines and 1.24" 24 spline axles and hubs.

all landi salisburys are 24 spline

Sorry but all this is completely wrong... the facts...

The Land Rover Salisbury 8HA is a copy of the US Dana 60 (with some differences), manufactured by GKN in the UK (there is no such company as Salisbury Dana, but GKN and Dana have close ties AFAIK). There were a range of axles manufactured by GKN with the name "Salisbury, followed by a different model number.

The differences were:
Salisbury has a 2 pin (6 gear) diff centre instead of 1 pin (4 gear) in the D60
Salisbury has 12mm crownwheel bolts instead of 1/2" (All Salisburies had all metric internals AFAIK)
Different pinion flange, pinion spline and pinion bearing
Thinner axle tubes to reduce weight
Salisbury only available in low pinion design (D60 high and low pinion).
The Salisbury 8HA had (generally) smaller diameter axles than the D60. Most had 24 spline 1.24" axles (note NO SALISBURIES HAD THE SMALLER 1.1" 10-spline rover axles), except for the 101 Forward Control which had 1.47" 21 spline axles (some special models also had similar axles).

Because of the extra gears/cross shaft, the diff centre of the Salisbury 8HA is actually stronger than the D60 - but this is a moot point as most people throw it away to fit an ARB. NOTE - there are some HD D60 centres that have 2 cross shafts (6 gear centre).

Salisbury 8HA's were fitted to the REAR of:
All SIII 109" (4.7:1 ratio)
SIII Stage 1 (3.54:1)
110 and Defender - 3.54:1 -(until recent TD5 which went back to the weak spiral bever rover/P38 diff)
Australian Military 6x6 (both rear axles - 4.7:1)

Salisbury 8HA's were fitted to the FRONT AND REAR of:
SIII One-Ton (4.7:1)
101FC (5.57:1 ratio) - The 101 8HA had larger (more sensible) 21 spline 1.5" (approx) halfshafts and big CV joints.
Armoured SIII and 110 models (Various ratios).

The Dana 60 has a much wider range of ratios available, anything from about 3:1 to 7.17:1. The flange on the diff centre of the 3.54 and 4.7 Sals are in different locations so you must swap diff centres to swap ratios. Contrary to popular belief, to remove or replace the diff centre in a Salisbury (or D60), only a slight amount of force is needed (tyre levers to remove, soft hammer to refit) rather than spreading the casing. The carrier bearings only have a small amount of preload from the centre casing.

So to summarise...

Salisbury 8HA specs
Ring gear - 9.75"
Pinion Diameter - 1.626"
Pinion Splines - ?
Ring gear bolts - 12x12mm
Tooth width - 1.437"
Ratios available - 3.54:1 - 7.17:1
Axle splines available:
1.47" 21 spline (101 FC)
1.24" 24 spline (all others)
Can be converted to 1.31" Dana 30 spline or 1.5" Dana 35 spline (D60 and Salisbury diff side gears interchangeable). For 1.5", new stub axles (macnamara) and wheel bearings are required.

[bigpat]

Faaark......

My head hurts after all that!