Outer Limits 4x4 Board

are the holes a really close fit so there is no movement between the 2 brackets??

jeep97tj wrote:are the holes a really close fit so there is no movement between the 2 brackets??

There is no play at all

count me in

Slight change

These will be one piece, picking up all four axle studs under the direction of an mechanical engineer.

Very nice

[quote="ozrunner"]Mate I can see where you’re at and wanting to help out and that is great, but on issues such as braking there should be no compromises. Supplying brackets is fine if the follow up parts are all basic items and matched etc that guys can use and in this case they are not.

Rear disc brakes on Toys has been an ongoing issue for years and the reason shops don’t have straight bolt up systems available is because none will work.

The cruiser systems are the only ones that will work without any major changes as they are designed to match the respective Toy MC volumes etc but the problem there is they all use an internal shoe handbrake etc.

First off, the use of GU discs is mentioned. According to DBA these have a centre hole of 111mm. The Toy rear axles is 106 so what is proposed is highly illegal not to mention potentially dangerous. The purpose of the centre hole in discs is to absolutely centrally locate the disc on the axle. Because of its larger hole the GU disc will have to rely on it being centrally located by the wheel nut studs and only then if their chamfer is correct. Otherwise the only thing holding the disc in place will be the tightness of your wheel studs, which is not enough to stop the disc from moving under heavy brake applications, consequently it would be possible for the disc to even move oblong etc with resultant consequences.

No reputable brake engineer would tick off using these discs for this reason and that’s why first off you need to use front Hilux/Cruiser discs but have them machined to 106mm so they are properly located. Stock 75 series rear discs slip straight on but they are machined for internal shoes and have a lot of overhang etc.

Subi calipers are front calipers and we all know that there is more front bias in MC’s etc so when they are put on the rear of a Toy the Toy MC is sadly lacking in volume as it biased for a piddly drum brake cylinder. Most then think its just a case of using a larger MC (me included ) but the problem is that this then screws up your front system if its also not designed for the bigger MC etc. There are a variety of MC sizes used on Toys, which further exacerbates the problems.

Most guys probably have the smaller Toy MC so immediately they will need to upgrade to the Toy 1â€

high n mighty wrote:So long as it is fully bolt up (removable) and proportions correctly I am very keen.......

Whatever

For Sale: PAPERWEIGHTS
Replica disc brake bracket
Made from heavy 8mm steel (It gets windy some times)
Comes in pairs

How does the engineer like the idea of GQ rotors with the ID being to
large for the Hilux axle spigots?

Cheers
Dazza

i think you need to forget about the proportional valve as you will find most of them do not work anyway.

almost all proportional valves stuff up within 5 months on a new vehicle (dont believe me try it (for those who will fry me, not in public) with it as it is and then dissconnect it and try again)

i run mine on a std sierra master cylander (hilux diffs, std front discs and calipers, rear are pajero discs and calipers from a import) with no brake bias valve connected and its fine. there is also heaps of pressure.

mud4b wrote:
almost all proportional valves stuff up within 5 months on a new vehicle (dont believe me try it (for those who will fry me, not in public) with it as it is and then dissconnect it and try again)

When you say that all porportional valves stuff up within 5 months on a new vehicle, are you refering to brand new vehicles, (ie new lux) or do you mean a new vavle will only last 5 months.

Cheers

mud4b wrote:i think you need to forget about the proportional valve as you will find most of them do not work anyway.

almost all proportional valves stuff up within 5 months on a new vehicle (dont believe me try it (for those who will fry me, not in public) with it as it is and then dissconnect it and try again)

i run mine on a std sierra master cylander (hilux diffs, std front discs and calipers, rear are pajero discs and calipers from a import) with no brake bias valve connected and its fine. there is also heaps of pressure.

I changed my bias back to acceptable after lifting mine by using a plate


Any priced for my paper weights yet?

high n mighty wrote:

mud4b wrote:i think you need to forget about the proportional valve as you will find most of them do not work anyway.

almost all proportional valves stuff up within 5 months on a new vehicle (dont believe me try it (for those who will fry me, not in public) with it as it is and then dissconnect it and try again)

i run mine on a std sierra master cylander (hilux diffs, std front discs and calipers, rear are pajero discs and calipers from a import) with no brake bias valve connected and its fine. there is also heaps of pressure.

I changed my bias back to acceptable after lifting mine by using a plate


Any priced for my paper weights yet?

No price yet, should have it tomorrow hopefully.

Ok, got The prices for the Brackets

It works out at $30 each piece, So that's $60 for the brackets and $10 standard Australia post freight. Total $70-

Conditions:
*I'm not in anyway claiming that these will definately be passed by an engineer.
*People must make a direct deposit into my bank account by midnight sunday 12th of feb, all you have to do is send a PM to me of the receipt copy, your Name and address.
*The order will be placed first thing monday morning and shipped as soon as i recieve them.
* Please PM me for my Bank account details and the number you wish to order ( some people want some for there mates)
*NOTE: i need 10 orders at the price we have been quoted.
* THIS IS A ONE OFF AND WILL NOT BE DONE BY ME AGAIN AT THIS PRICE.

Cheers Joel

How many can u get in a $10 post bag?? there will be few coming over to WA so if we can get them all together will save some $$.

Joel,
what are the actual disc's and callipers are you using. Are these parts correct:

Disc
GQ Y60 Rear 1988
diameter - 315
height - 80
thichness - 18
centre hole - 111


Calliper
1600, 1800, Leone 1984 - 85
Leone DL, GL, All models 1985 - 94
Brumby AU 1985 - 93

Chris.

If people are worried about the centre hole ID being too big. Can FRONTERA 4 X 4 dics be used?

FRONTERA 4 X 4 Rear
2.0i with & without ABS 3/95 - on
Sport 4 X 4 UT 10/95 - 6/99
S & SE - V6 & 4Cyl 2/99 - on

diameter - 313
height - 81
thichness - 18
centre hole - 101

would the 1mm difference in the height be a big problem? These would need to be machined to open up the center hole.

Note the PCD for the frontera is the same as a hilux 6 x 139.7

Chris.

jeep97tj wrote:How many can u get in a $10 post bag?? there will be few coming over to WA so if we can get them all together will save some $$.

If I can get in on this shipment I would be interested in the few dollar savings

Chris.

cbr wrote:Joel,
what are the actual disc's and callipers are you using. Are these parts correct:

Disc
GQ Y60 Rear 1988
diameter - 315
height - 80
thichness - 18
centre hole - 111


Calliper
1600, 1800, Leone 1984 - 85
Leone DL, GL, All models 1985 - 94
Brumby AU 1985 - 93

Chris.

Hi Chris
All of the sizes for the Rotor are correct.
The callipers that i have are from an 88 sportswagon but i believe that all the models that you have listed are the same caliper.

cbr wrote:If people are worried about the centre hole ID being too big. Can FRONTERA 4 X 4 dics be used?

FRONTERA 4 X 4 Rear
2.0i with & without ABS 3/95 - on
Sport 4 X 4 UT 10/95 - 6/99
S & SE - V6 & 4Cyl 2/99 - on

diameter - 313
height - 81
thichness - 18
centre hole - 101

would the 1mm difference in the height be a big problem? These would need to be machined to open up the center hole.

Note the PCD for the frontera is the same as a hilux 6 x 139.7

Chris.

From what i can see, the frontera would work as well.
The slightly smaller diameter will be ok as will the 1mm extra depth.

This rotor will be more suitable for those worried about the centre hole size as it is easy to machine out.

cbr wrote:

jeep97tj wrote:How many can u get in a $10 post bag?? there will be few coming over to WA so if we can get them all together will save some $$.

If I can get in on this shipment I would be interested in the few dollar savings

Chris.

Yes i can arrange special shipment for you WA guys.
If you can confirm the numbers required from your side, i can find out how much it'll cost and could send it to the one address.

If you decide that you want them sent seprately, i reckon i could fit 2 sets per bag.

Just let me know how many you want going to the one address and i'll work it out.

Cheers Joel

cbr wrote:If people are worried about the centre hole ID being too big. Can FRONTERA 4 X 4 dics be used?

FRONTERA 4 X 4 Rear
2.0i with & without ABS 3/95 - on
Sport 4 X 4 UT 10/95 - 6/99
S & SE - V6 & 4Cyl 2/99 - on

diameter - 313
height - 81
thichness - 18
centre hole - 101

would the 1mm difference in the height be a big problem? These would need to be machined to open up the center hole.

Note the PCD for the frontera is the same as a hilux 6 x 139.7

Chris.

I am using frontera rotors on my current disc brake setup and they work well, Rotors are actually located by the centre hole and the brake drum surface around the axle flange if you do it right, I also locate mine with 3 8mm c/s setscrews

[quote="STUMPY
Yes i can arrange special shipment for you WA guys.
If you can confirm the numbers required from your side, i can find out how much it'll cost and could send it to the one address.

If you decide that you want them sent seprately, i reckon i could fit 2 sets per bag.

Just let me know how many you want going to the one address and i'll work it out.

Cheers Joel[/quote]

Thanks Joel i will get back to u on numbers

So far for WA people

x2 for me
x1 for cbr
x1 for dewse

Rest of u WA people PM me if u want me to get them, or put your hand up if u want to get them all, If some one in perth could organise brake lines, that should save some $$ aswell

cplux wrote:

cbr wrote:If people are worried about the centre hole ID being too big. Can FRONTERA 4 X 4 dics be used?

FRONTERA 4 X 4 Rear
2.0i with & without ABS 3/95 - on
Sport 4 X 4 UT 10/95 - 6/99
S & SE - V6 & 4Cyl 2/99 - on

diameter - 313
height - 81
thichness - 18
centre hole - 101

would the 1mm difference in the height be a big problem? These would need to be machined to open up the center hole.

Note the PCD for the frontera is the same as a hilux 6 x 139.7

Chris.

I am using frontera rotors on my current disc brake setup and they work well, Rotors are actually located by the centre hole and the brake drum surface around the axle flange if you do it right, I also locate mine with 3 8mm c/s setscrews

What callipers are you using? is your bracket flat like the one Joel is making?

Chris.

Glad to see thtat you have gone the one piece option

You can count me in

Stumpy - PM sent.

Jesus guys you can lead a donkey to water but .......... So one last wet blanket .

Joels cost for those brackets is great and certainly worth the money.

But if Joels brackets are setup for the calipers as shown in the 3 pics in his post on 3/6 then the problem is they are made for the wrong caliper.

Also the calipers mentioned in CBRs post are NOT all the same. There are 4 different types in that vehicle range !!!! There are two types that will have the same bolt pattern for this bracket, but only one of these will match the proposed set up. But unfortunately it will not work as its volume requirement is way too much for a Toy system and we wont go into using a caliper designed to fit a 230mm disc that is being squeezed onto a 315mm disc.

Before all you guys start make sure you do some honest test brake stops with your current system and mark the road accordingly and do the same after you have finished. Actually, if you want to get a forward idea what your pedal will feel like, go stand on a wet mushroom.

But if anyone does want a good strong pedal feel, let me know as I will gladly flog you some parts. A new Corvette 1-1/8 bore MC or a new Cobra R Mustang 1-1/16 MC and a spiffy Cobra R double diaphram booster all imported direct from the US and they will fit the Toy. They will give you a great rear brake with these calipers, but a small by product is your fronts wont work, but hey who cares the rears will.

JD

ozrunner wrote:
But if Joel’s brackets are setup for the calipers as shown in the 3 pics in his post on 3/6 then the problem is they are made for the wrong caliper.

Also the calipers mentioned in CBR’s post are NOT all the same. There are 4 different types in that vehicle range !!!! There are two types that will have the same bolt pattern for this bracket, but only one of these will match the proposed set up.

JD

The calipers that i'm using that i measured to design the bracket for was from a 88 subaru sports wagon. The hole spacing is 122mm. Can you verify what other models have this same caliper please?

Many thanks in advance

Cheers One Thirsty Donkey

No probs will do as I have all of the models in my shed but with the time difference it won't be until later your evening

If I recall correctly the difference was enough to not be able to redrill my bracket to suit the earlier caliper.

Joel

Mate, here's some pics of the two types.

The smaller piston unit is on the right whereas you are using the larger unit on the left. Yours has the 122mm mounts whereas the other is 102mm.
Probably only need to do a small mod to your template etc.









Both these types also come in two variations, ie they are available for either a 12.5mm solid disc and a 18mm vented disc so you have to ensure you select one suitable for the size disc that you intend to use.

Mate, I have to also say I can't see the point in doing all this work and using a disc that will not be approved by an engineer let alone possibly put you at risk. With this in mind I would design your bracket to maybe suit the 75 series rear disc (DBA 787) as it's a straight bolt up with no machining, common as and safe, . It is 68mm wide. The front Cruiser/Hilux discs do suit these calipers a tad better due to their spacing but you have to have the centre machined to 106mm etc so they are not something you can just go and buy in a shop as a quick replacement, hence using the stock 75 rear disc does make more sense.

You are obviously aware that using the larger diameter disc also means the caliper will not fully seat over the disc as its mount will interfere and the early version is a lot easier to do this .

If you set the bracket in the same position as before then guys with coil sprung 4Runners need to be aware this will not really suit theres unless they alter the route of the handbrake cable.

When setting up the bracket you also need to ensure that the caliper is positioned over the disc in the same manner, ie spacing is the same as factory. Measure the distance from the rear of the Subi disc to the caliper mounting plate and use this same distance in your mount as that puts the caliper in the correct location so it will be able to fully float etc.

I also assume everyone realises the next money pit step is to purchase a dedicated Disc/Disc MC from either a Cruiser or Prado. The current disc/drum MC will be as useless as proverbial tits on a bull. I would also recommend going for a new booster unless you already have the dual diaphram unit. I used a complete 25mm MC and booster from a rear disc Prado.

The early Subi calipers use a 20.64mm MC but being on the front they get more fluid bias volume. So if used on the rear with the same sized MC they ain't going to work. But with a 25mm Toy disc/disc MC even though the rear bias is still less, the extra volume means it will now be enough to get a good pedal.

But it still comes at a cost, as its still not perfectly matched as you are trying to push 1" worth of fluid into a volume cavity designed for 20.64mm. You will get a good pedal but when combined with stock front calipers also designed for the smaller MC, it means your pedal "power" will still not be right as the fronts are now also affected. Also keep in mind that most of your braking is done by the fronts !!

So as mentioned earlier out with the wallet again to upgrade the fronts to 25mm MC calipers so they now match the new MC. Upgrade to 4Runner/Surf 1" fronts and the front returns to normal.

If you make your bracket to use the early version caliper with these associated parts etc you will get a good strong pedal. You may have to muck about a tad with the handbrake as I found it did not hold very well on steep hills etc but I also fixed that, .

Mate, your selection of the larger caliper is no big deal as I did exactly the same but I got to the point of no return and luckily eventually cracked it while thinking in bed, . You guys have the chance to save on dollars and much frustration

All up it cost me a fortune but it was eventually worth it, as my 4Runner will now haul up at 110kph 1 ½ car lengths past what Helen's 99 Liberty RX will. Seeing it probably weighs close to half as much and it has ABS meaning you can stomp on it as hard as possible IMHO that's pretty impressive. Certainly makes the former drum setup look pretty average, .

Sorry I couldn't post earlier but I'm busy working on my own Current Project and it took me awhile to also find where I had put these calipers

Hope this info helps.

JD

Some good information here JD, thanks.

Just a question it looks like you are using hilux/cruiser front disks (dba 151) which are 49mm wide. It also looks like you have a bracket that is flat. Is this correct? Because joel's bracket is also flat and he is going to use a disk that is 80mm wide. So your bracket is mounted on the outside of the flange, but joels will be mounted on the inside of the flange, correct?

I don't have my runner here so does anyone have the measurement of the flange? It looks like it is about 10mm? So I can not see how a 49mm wide disk will line up with the calliper with a flat bracket? Is it because the smaller callipers have a different offset mountings?

Also it looks like your bracket is 9.5mm while joel is going to make an 8mm bracket. Have you done this to position the calliper correctly?

The reason I am asking, would it be possible to use joels flat bracket and mount it on the outside of the flange and use a hilux or 75 series (as suggested) with the correct smaller subi calliper??

Joel any chance this could be investigated? I would think alot more people would purchase brackets if it could be made for a 75 series disc. just a thought!

Chris